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#1
Right i got this placemat with the key signature being E#... I myself havent heard of E# before, i did some research and found that its the same note as F natural. But why would it be a key signature and on a placemat, i don't understand. What do u guys think?

Heres the placemat
Attachments:
E sharp.jpg
Last edited by guitaristben at Dec 22, 2008,
#4
Quote by one vision
What?

Technically, there is no key o E#, there is key of F. But that's not to say that the note E# doesn't exist.

That looks like a double sharp from here, lol.



Soz about the small pic, but its only one sharp
#5
That doesn't mean that because a sharp is on E, it means that it's in E#... and I can't think of a key sig that only has E# in the key...
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#6
Quote by Telecaster7
wait... you had to do research to find out that E# is the same as F?


why don't children learn thoery?


Why don't you learn how to spell?
#7
Yeh this happens sometimes.. in some keys it makes more sense for it to be called E#, I dont fully understand to be honest
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#9
The company who made the placemat probably couldn't be bothered to find someone who knew anything about music.

In standard notation you can't just have any notes in the key signature (eg. just a G#), the accidentals in a key signature have to actually imply a key. Taking the example I gave, there couldn't be a key signature with just a G# because any key where a G# is diatonic must also have F# and C#.

Key signatures also have to be written in a specific order which is:
F, C, G, D, A, E, B for sharps and just reversed for flats
So if a key has 3 sharps they must be F, C and G.

A good way of remembering the order is to remember:
Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle which is reversible as
Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles' Father
#10
I'm sure you've realised this, but that doesn't make sense cause E# is enharmonic to F, and F is already in the key signature. I'm guessing that the # sign was meant to be over the top line instead of the top space, which would make a G key signature, and since it's a placemat and not real sheet music, it wasn't deemed important enough to change their error.
#11
Come on guys...e# is a note theory-wise but not aurally if that is a word. Chances are that you will be playing f sharp or double f sharp in the composition but idk. To say that E# isnt a note is ingorant but its cool if you dont know cause a lot of people dont. We do know that in theory there are impossible key signatures with like 11 flats but are the same aurally..its just thinking out the box
#13
Quote by Telecaster7
wait... you had to do research to find out that E# is the same as F?


why don't children learn thoery?

E# =/= F

They are not interchangeable. Aurally, they are enharmonic (they sound the same in the 12-TET system), but each serves a different purpose when creating a scale. Also in any other TET system, they would be slightly different frequencies, meaning that they AREN'T even the same note.

So why don't you learn some theory?
#14
Quote by enjoieverything
Come on guys...e# is a note theory-wise but not aurally if that is a word. Chances are that you will be playing f sharp or double f sharp in the composition but idk. To say that E# isnt a note is ingorant but its cool if you dont know cause a lot of people dont. We do know that in theory there are impossible key signatures with like 11 flats but are the same aurally..its just thinking out the box

No, that's not how key signatures work. 12345abcd3 is correct. The scale of A harmonic minor has just a G# in it, but if you were writing a piece that was derived from that scale, you would write the key signature in A minor, which is no sharps or flats. You can't just make up key signatures.
#17
Quote by 12345abcd3
The company who made the placemat probably couldn't be bothered to find someone who knew anything about music.



This is the answer. People in graphic design aren't often musicians, so when they go to design things using music notes and staves and stuff, they tend to get it wrong. This explains flags to the left, eighth notes without the heads coloured in, irregular numbers of beats with and without bar lines, etc.

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#18
Quote by JakdOnCrack
F# harmonic minor is not a key. The key is F# minor, with an E# accidental written in wherever the note appears.

But yes, it is a note.

Yeah. I thought I'd have posted in MT enough for you to know that I know it's not a key

But yes, I should've made it more clear.

Fine, F# Major has an E#. Better example.

But I think the point is that whoever made that thing was drunk and meant to put the sharp on the F but missed.
#19
Quote by JakdOnCrack
E# =/= F

They are not interchangeable. Aurally, they are enharmonic (they sound the same in the 12-TET system), but each serves a different purpose when creating a scale. Also in any other TET system, they would be slightly different frequencies, meaning that they AREN'T even the same note.

So why don't you learn some theory?

+1.
I'm glad someone had sense enough to say that.
#20
But why would it be a key signature and on a placemat, i don't understand. What do u guys think?


It means to sharpen every E you put in your tea.

Ffs, it's obvious that it was made to look like music notation without the artist having a clue. Why even bring in enharmonic tones? You guys, complaining about the same **** coming up and then in threads like this bring it up without it being relevant.
#26
What happened to BE yourself?...lol

B and E have no sharps...

Using sharps on B and E when writing scales and modes down can make them
easier to put on paper. If you just put b(flats) and #(sharps) on everything its
faster. Using conversions to C and F and make things look weird.
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Last edited by Washburnd Fretz at Dec 23, 2008,
#27
Quote by Telecaster7
wait... you had to do research to find out that E# is the same as F?


why don't children learn thoery?



i loled when i read that in his post.


and then when i read yours.
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#28
Quote by Washburnd Fretz
What happened to BE yourself?...lol

B and E have no sharps...

Using sharps on B and E when writing scales and modes down can make them
easier to put on paper. If you just put b(flats) and #(sharps) on everything its
faster. Using conversions to C and F and make things look weird.

B and E can be sharp. Just like C and F can be flat.

EVERY NOTE A-G can be double-flat, flat, natural, sharp, or double sharp. Every note. Every single one.
#29
One guy up there said it looked like a double sharp. E double sharp is the same F#. So could you kind of get away with that saying that the F is sharp? To let you guys know I am just playing devils advocate right here.

(and dont be *****s saying that E# =/= F with this, I know how you theory elitists think).
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Last edited by justin_fraser at Dec 23, 2008,
#31
One guy up there said it looked like a double sharp. E double sharp is the same F#. So could you kind of get away with that saying that the F is sharp?


You can get away with it if you can find musicians willing to take that kind of crap from a composer.
#32
Quote by JakdOnCrack
B and E can be sharp. Just like C and F can be flat.

EVERY NOTE A-G can be double-flat, flat, natural, sharp, or double sharp. Every note. Every single one.


E#would =F# ....and B# would=C#
based on the 12 tone system there is no half step between B/C and E/f

isn't it bad theory etiquette to say B/E# ?

I dunno..i have tuned to drop-D on cheap tuners set to Standard double flat
to get a Drop-C


If you tune to Eb you are simply dropping the tuning a half step.
you can do that by putting a capo across the first fret and tuning to standard

you will end up with.......... D Ab Db Gb A# D ....or Eb Ab Db Gb Bb Eb
but some people would rather split hairs...lol
I bet Charlie Brown's teacher's name was Mrs.Hammett
Last edited by Washburnd Fretz at Dec 23, 2008,
#33
Quote by Telecaster7
wait... you had to do research to find out that E# is the same as F?


why don't children learn thoery?


they sound the same, but they're not the same notes.
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#34
Quote by Washburnd Fretz
E#would =Fb ....and B# would=Cb
but based on the 12 tone system there is no half step between B/C and E/f

isn't it bad theory etiquette to say B/E# ?

I dunno..i have tuned to drop-D on cheap tuners set to Standard double flat
to get a Drop-C
soo....I have no reason to talk...lol

I guess this is why theory is so confusing...all these rules that are not rules.

Eh, not exactly. E# is enharmonic to F natural, same with B# and C. E is enharmonic to Fb, and B is enharmonic to Cb.

If you played an E# and then an Fb, it would sound like you played an F natural then an E natural. But yes, it would be bad theory etiquette if you type a slash chord B/E# instead of B/F is you were writing a B diminished chord or what-have-you in second inversion.


I'm just being a theory dick, basically.
#35
Quote by Telecaster7
wait... you had to do research to find out that E# is the same as F?


why don't children learn thoery?


Why don't adults learn how to spell?

Ah, how offensive that must be coming from a child.


Don't worry about stuff you find in weird areas like wallpapers, coffee mugs, coasters, wrapping paper, etc.

It'll rarely be musically correct.
#37
at school we have this "rock n roll cafe" and there are notes all over it..and they put the flags on the wrong side, and the stems are backwards and the notes are upside down where they aren't supposed to be. stuff like that gets on my nerves.
Quote by steven seagull
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11/10
you win my good sir

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Check out my MP3s!!
#38
Quote by JakdOnCrack
Eh, not exactly. E# is enharmonic to F natural, same with B# and C. E is enharmonic to Fb, and B is enharmonic to Cb.

If you played an E# and then an Fb, it would sound like you played an F natural then an E natural. But yes, it would be bad theory etiquette if you type a slash chord B/E# instead of B/F is you were writing a B diminished chord or what-have-you in second inversion.


I'm just being a theory dick, basically.


Correct me if im wrong...but isnt enharmonic notation used to make music simpler
to read?

Isnt that the only reason Eb/# and Bb/# exist>?

such as...... D Ab Db Gb A# D =[ Eb ] standard Tuning....or Eb Ab Db Gb Bb Eb
all those redundant letters are a pain in the but to read
wouldnt it be?.....D Ab C# Gb Bb Eb...for less confusion?

Im not trying to flame you..I'm honestly trying to break any bad habits I may have.
I bet Charlie Brown's teacher's name was Mrs.Hammett
Last edited by Washburnd Fretz at Dec 23, 2008,
#39
Quote by Washburnd Fretz
Correct me if im wrong...but isnt enharmonic notation used to make music simpler
to read?


If so, failure was achieved.
#40
yeah...choosing standard tuning was a bad example...lol
I bet Charlie Brown's teacher's name was Mrs.Hammett
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