#1
Hello,

I have just finished memorizing my mode shapes and there relative positions to each other but I have a question that I cannot find a solid answer too.

Obviously when soloing a person does not stay within one box shape, is it correct to assume that if I am playing in the key of C major using a major chord progression of something like C-F-G, I can also play in the A aeolian the relative minor as long as I resolve everything to the C note? Or is this not the case despite using the same notes because of the interval relationships to the root note.

Thanks,
Jordan

Oh and at first I thought that such a thing was not allowed unless you switch your scale with each chord change but recently I came across this article which says otherwise. http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/colu...n_practice.html
#2
It depends on the chords you are playing over. In the progression you listed you are still playing C major even though you think you are playing A aeolian. If a progression key is in A minor then you would be playing A aeolian.
Last edited by Guitar Guy21 at Dec 29, 2008,
#3
The honest answer is that you can do whatever you want, as long as it sounds good. I'm also pretty heavy into theory, but you have to remember there are exceptions to every rule. There's no hard, fast rule that says you have to resolve back to a C. If you're playing A Aeolian, you're certainly going to have a C in there. What's to say that you're playing in A Aeolian and the ear expects to hear a C at a certain point, but you don't resolve to it? It just creates a little tension. As I understand it, if you're playing in A Aeolian, the A has now become your root - hence the reason you're playing that mode in the first place. In other words, you want to resolve back to A.
#4
Check the 2nd link in my signature for Modal Chord Progressions + own improvisations played over them and explained: why they work, how to make them work and identification.


The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#5
Thanks,

Guitar guy I thought that is how it worked, and that is how I wanted it to work. Like you said you are playing the A aeolian shape but truly playing C major.

Steven, I know you don't "have to resolve" to the root but if I want the aeolion shape to sound major I think you need to stress the C and the major third. If you stress the A then it will sound minor (fine if you want to sound minor and create tension, but not if you want it to sound major).


Darren I will check the link, thx.
#6
Quote by jordanshadow
Hello,

I have just finished memorizing my mode shapes and there relative positions to each other but I have a question that I cannot find a solid answer too.

Obviously when soloing a person does not stay within one box shape, is it correct to assume that if I am playing in the key of C major using a major chord progression of something like C-F-G, I can also play in the A aeolian the relative minor as long as I resolve everything to the C note? Or is this not the case despite using the same notes because of the interval relationships to the root note.

Thanks,
Jordan

Oh and at first I thought that such a thing was not allowed unless you switch your scale with each chord change but recently I came across this article which says otherwise. http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/colu...n_practice.html

No - and in all honestly you've completely misunderstood modes. Modes are NOT different patterns, all you've done is learn diffferent positions of the major scale but you've confused the issue tremendously by giving the same thing 7 different names.

Modes are scales in their own right that can be derived from the major scale. They have their own unique sets of intervals and tend to be harmonically unstable which means you usually need a relatively static backing in order to fix a tonal centre to prevent things resolving back to the relative major or minor. Because they're derived from the major scale you can obviously use the exact same fingering patterns, but more often than not the modes simply won't factor into the equation. If you're playing over a typical, contemporary progression of 3 or more chords then 99% of the time you'll be using the major or minor scale of whatever the progression resolves to.

Modes, and indeed scales in general don't exist in isolation, they're entirely dependent on the chords you're playing over. If you want to play modally then you need to choose your chords accordingly, hence darren's links to modal chord progressions - and you need to be far more concerned with parallel modes than relative modes. Relative modes are composed of the same notes, therefore if your chords don't change neither does your scale...that's why you can't be playing in C major and switch to "A aeolian" over the same progression, unless the chords change it's still going to be C major and it's still going to sound the same. What you can do if the chords are right is switch from C major to C Aeolian, parallel modes share the same root note but have different intervals and therefore the rest of the notes are different, which is the whole point of changing scales.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


stuffmycatswatchontv.tumblr.com
Last edited by steven seagull at Dec 29, 2008,
#7
Excellent lesson Darren! Super useful in other ways but does not really answer the question I had in the thread. Whats your take on using modal shapes to extend a scale? How would you go about it, or better yet could you break down what shapes you used in one of your videos?
#8
Don't think in patterns but think in melodies. This may sound vague but try singing the notes and make a melody with them over a chord. This will let your fingers go automatically outside the boxes
Quote by razorback91
Im sorry, I just don't see how you could argue that hardcore isn't metal. That just seems arrogant to me.

Yes, its its own kind of metal, but its still metal.
#9
There's no such thing as "modal shapes", they're ALL the major scale.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


stuffmycatswatchontv.tumblr.com
#10
Steven I didn't misunderstand modes but I can see how you would see that. I understand that modes have there very own intervals, sounds and uses etc... I get that they are scales in there own right.

I suppose my question is less about modes and more about using the idea of modes as positions of patterns. I want to play the major scale but I want to be able to use the whole fretboard. I am checking to make sure that it is okay to use the modal patterns as long as they are relative to major pattern I am playing. If this is the case which I believe to be true it will make learning to play lead much simpler than I had first thought.

Please follow up Steven.
#11
^^ What he said. You should try to find Frank Gambale's "Modes no more Mystery" ( or something like that ), or atleast try to find the little chart with all the scale positions that come with it. It basically illustrates how you should look at the fretboard and modes in general. Just all the notes of the major scale, as Seagull pointed out above, but the roots of each mode, depending on which mode you're playing, should just 'light up'. OKay, I'm not making sense, seriously though try to get your hands on the video I mentioned.
#12
Understanding/knowing modes has absolutely no bearing on your ability to play all over the fretboard. You need to stop thinking of "modal patterns" because that's horrendously overcomplicating matters. If you're in, for example , C major then every relative mode is just going to be C major. There's no point looking for "modal shapes" because the same damn thing will have seven different names. If you look at the entire fretboard pattern for C major you'll also find the pattern for D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian and B Locrian....because they use the exact same notes and therefore without context they're all EXACTLY THE SAME.

Your chords define the scale and that's how you know what scale your shapes are from. If your progression is in C major then the notes C D E F G A B are going to be C major regardless of the shapes they happen to form at various points on the fretboard. Learn the notes on the fretboard, learn how to construct the major scale, learn how it sounds and ultimately put all that knowledge together to allow you to see how the major scale forms across the whole fretboard.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


stuffmycatswatchontv.tumblr.com
Last edited by steven seagull at Dec 29, 2008,
#13
Let me try one more time to explain my thinking here... I believe we are all on the same page just words are getting in the way.

When I am playing C major over a major progression. I use C Ionian. First I start in the C Ionian root shape and play a lick or two. I then shift to the A root on the low E string and continue playing in C major but the shape has changed, the shape resembles A Aeolian.

Situation two, I am playing A aeolian over a minor progression, play a lick or two on the root position then shift to C on the low E string and play but the shape has changed, it resembles C Ionian.

This is a correct use of scale shapes despite the fact that I am not blending them in the example? Using modes as to conceptualize the fretboard.

Edit: Yes Steven that is exactly how I am looking at it, words are just getting in way. We are on the same page.
Last edited by jordanshadow at Dec 29, 2008,
#14
Quote by jordanshadow
Excellent lesson Darren! Super useful in other ways but does not really answer the question I had in the thread. Whats your take on using modal shapes to extend a scale? How would you go about it, or better yet could you break down what shapes you used in one of your videos?


I know it doesn't answer the question.

I do know that if u work from my perspective you don't just understand modes, but understand melody to chord relations to a better extent.

And as you can see in my vids, i'm literally all over the neck. I know where all the notes are most of the time, and i'm still improving with the day in getting to know my neck and "connecting the dots (Read notes)" in new ways.

In my lesson I also said which notes I target, cause that's where the essence lies in modes.

Hope it helps

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Dec 29, 2008,
#15
Yes darren,

I have begun to understand melody and chord relations thanks in part to your article but before I am able to actually utilize such knowledge I needed to make sure that my understanding about using different positions of a scale which also "resemble" modes was correct.
#16
Quote by jordanshadow
Yes darren,

I have begun to understand melody and chord relations thanks in part to your article but before I am able to actually utilize such knowledge I needed to make sure that my understanding about using different positions of a scale which also "resemble" modes was correct.


Quote by xxdarrenxx

If you wanna go through with this lesson you need at least basic knowledge of modes(knowing how to play em on guitar)


Is in the introduction of my lesson.

You should know how to play the modes. Whether you learn shapes or what doesn't matter. You just have to understand that shapes are to help ur fingers flow across the fretboard. The actual "magic" lies in the targeted (mode) notes that u emphasize.

The key phrase here is "be aware of the notes you play"

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Dec 29, 2008,
#17
Quote by steven seagull
There's no such thing as "modal shapes", they're ALL the major scale.


Well, each scale creates a shape on the neck, modes are no different in that regard. While I'm aware of all the relationships, I am able to see each mode on the neck in its own unique shape. This is never been a hindrance, but rather it reinforces my knowledge of the modes. There is no reason to discourage the learning of shapes be at modal or otherwise, they are not the problem here. The TS simply needs to gain a wider perspective, which it appears he is attempting to do.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Dec 29, 2008,
#18
^^ Even to consider the existence of modal shapes is to complicate matters. A keen awareness of the parent major scale and a knowledge of where the roots of the mode lie should suffice and is certainly a more efficiently alternative to learning each shape, all over the fret board, for each mode. It would also suggest you're looking at modes the wrong way. It's all the collection of notes that is the diatonic major scale; that is all you should concern yourself when playing the guitar; everything else is music and theory.
#19
I surrender the internet is almost worthless, all I needed was a simple answer! The answer is in all of your posts and I thank you for that but sheesh! The answer is yes, fifth position of the C major scale can be used to solo in addition to the root, and it also happens be the root position of A aeolian. The name A aeolian is not important I am just using my knowledge of modes to assist in finding the notes that create the major scale.
#20
Quote by MisquotedTeabag
^^ Even to consider the existence of modal shapes is to complicate matters.


To recognize the modal shapes ( or any shapes for that matter), is to gain a broader perspective and deeper understanding.

Quote by jordanshadow
I surrender the internet is almost worthless, all I needed was a simple answer! The answer is in all of your posts and I thank you for that but sheesh! The answer is yes, fifth position of the C major scale can be used to solo in addition to the root, and it also happens be the root position of A aeolian. The name A aeolian is not important I am just using my knowledge of modes to assist in finding the notes that create the major scale.


Hey , if you want a simple answer with no arguments, you've come to the wrong place.
shred is gaudy music
#21
Quote by GuitarMunky
Well, each scale creates a shape on the neck, modes are no different in that regard. While I'm aware of all the relationships, I am able to see each mode on the neck in its own unique shape. This is never been a hindrance, but rather it reinforces my knowledge of the modes. There is no reason to discourage the learning of shapes be at modal or otherwise, they are not the problem here. The TS simply needs to gain a wider perspective, which it appears he is attempting to do.


You're doing that thing again where you don't read my posts properly

I never said not to learn shapes, but if you're not playing modally then there's little to be gained from referring to the shapes of the major scale as anything but "the major scale". I said to stop looking for "modal shapes" because the shape isn't what makes something a mode, it's the notes it contains and the context. You don't gain an understanding of modes by looking for them in places they don't exist.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


stuffmycatswatchontv.tumblr.com
Last edited by steven seagull at Dec 29, 2008,
#22
See I like Seagull. He says so many things I can agree with. I think what we're both trying to say is that guitarists should avoid trying to learn F lydian all around the fretboard and then move onto say A Aeolian. What they should do is understand that both F lydian and A Aeolian come from the same parents scale ( C major ), learn C major all around the neck and just be aware of what degree each and every note is on the neck so as to treat any degree as the tonal center and thus establishing any mode based on the C major parents scale.
#23
Quote by MisquotedTeabag
See I like Seagull. He says so many things I can agree with. I think what we're both trying to say is that guitarists should avoid trying to learn F lydian all around the fretboard and then move onto say A Aeolian. What they should do is understand that both F lydian and A Aeolian come from the same parents scale ( C major ), learn C major all around the neck and just be aware of what degree each and every note is on the neck so as to treat any degree as the tonal center and thus establishing any mode based on the C major parents scale.


I think you should understand the relationship to the parent scale, as well as be able to see the modes as unique scales on their own. Being able to visualize the shapes ( any shapes)... is always useful and will serve to reinforce/ solidify your overall understanding.

Quote by steven seagull
You're doing that thing again where you don't read my posts properly

I never said not to learn shapes, but if you're not playing modally then there's little to be gained from referring to the shapes of the major scale as anything but "the major scale". I said to stop looking for "modal shapes" because the shape isn't what makes something a mode, it's the notes it contains and the context. You don't gain an understanding of modes by looking for them in places they don't exist.



Well, you said modal shapes don't exist, my post was in reply to that.

I know what your overall point is. I think you just need to find a way of saying it without implying that somehow knowing the Modal patterns ( or any pattern), is somehow a bad thing


let's face it people make a lot of mistakes when they're first learning modes. generally though as they look further into it these issues become resolved. The first exposure to modes rarely, if ever gives a person a full and complete understanding.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Dec 29, 2008,
#24
but don't you agree that it's better to understand what a shape represents in any given context rather than giving it an arbitrary name regardless of how you're actually using it?
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


stuffmycatswatchontv.tumblr.com
#25
^^ Agreed, but understanding that the parents scale is merely a little diagram you project unto the guitar and that the mode is the real musical functionality is another way of getting to what you're trying to suggest. Think of a dull gray dot for every note of the C major scale. But if I were to play in F lydian every F note would just light up bright red. So really, I'd be visualizing F lydian, but I'd have only learnt the notes of the C major parents scale. You follow?
#26
Quote by steven seagull
but don't you agree that it's better to understand what a shape represents in any given context rather than giving it an arbitrary name regardless of how you're actually using it?

I've never said or implied that you shouldn't understand what a shape represents ..... ever.... in any post.

I know what your overall point is. I think you just need to find a way of saying it without implying that knowing the Modal patterns ( or any pattern), is somehow a bad thing. If you did that, you would never have an argument from me. ( on this issue )


let's face it people make a lot of mistakes when they're first learning modes. generally though as they look further into it these issues become resolved. The first exposure to modes rarely, if ever gives a person a full and complete understanding. I wouldn't discourage any aspect of it, be it a pattern on the neck, or understanding it from a theoretical perspective. Eventually, it all comes together.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Dec 29, 2008,