hey there,

im getting back into theory after several years, cause if i dont im getting kicked outa my music college having only JUST been enroled :P

one things come up and is puzzling me - the minor 2nd, (ie, if we're in the key of C, it'd be: C to Db). but, this doesnt come up in any of the minor scales - so ive always referred to it at the Perfect 2nd.... so im miffed....... does this therefore mean that the minor scale includes a Major interval? :S

what scales (other than chromatic), contain this m2?

cheers all, many thanks
i've heard it called a m2 before but i think its just considered a b2. the thing is in both a major and minor scale the distance between the root and the 2 is a full step (so its both major and minor second when you base it off of that) so a perfect 2nd is a full step and a b2 is a half step. i personally always refer to it as a b2 because m2 might confuse the college literate where i believe its written as a b2.
a 2nd in a minor scale is the same as a major. the 3rd, 5th and 7th are flat but the rest remain the same.
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Minor = Major starting from the VI. therefore, it has ALL the same intervals EXCEPT in a different order.

i believe minor is a major scale with a lowered III, VI, and VII.
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the 3rd,6th and 7th get flattened.
Now being a non-native English speaker I'm not 100% on music terms in English, but aren't you thinking of it in the wrong way?

Wether an interval or a tone in a scale is called Major or Minor isn't about wether it belongs in a Major or Minor scale, rather if it is high (Major) or low (Minor). I dunno if I misunderstood you, but you seem to be thinking it is the first.

Furthermore, afaik, there are only perfect 4ths, 5ths and 8ths? Thus referring to it as a perfect 2th would definitely be wrong.
The minor scale contains a major second from the root, yes. There are minor seconds between the second and third and the fifth and sixth scale degrees.
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Quote by liam177lewis
Archeo Avis - those are intervals between notes within a scale. im talking about THE minor 2nd, the b'd / diminished / minor 2nd, ie ONLY one in the scale.

In which case the minor scale contains a major second.
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what in good lord are you talking about
no no no, a second is an interval. A minor 2nd is not referring explicitly to the interval between the root and the 2nd degree, it's just the interval between a note and the next letter either above or below it. B to C is a minor second, while Bb to C is a major second. A minor second is one semitone, whereas a major second is 2 semitones, i.e. a half tone.

Also, calling it a perfect 2nd is entirely wrong.
Quote by descara
Now being a non-native English speaker I'm not 100% on music terms in English, but aren't you thinking of it in the wrong way?

Wether an interval or a tone in a scale is called Major or Minor isn't about wether it belongs in a Major or Minor scale, rather if it is high (Major) or low (Minor). I dunno if I misunderstood you, but you seem to be thinking it is the first.

Furthermore, afaik, there are only perfect 4ths, 5ths and 8ths? Thus referring to it as a perfect 2th would definitely be wrong.

This guys got the idea.. I've never heard of a perfect 2nd.
@JakdOnCrack

?? Bb to C would practically be a prime in tempered tuning or on a guitar or piano - B# to C would be a major 2nd though. Two semitones is litteraly two halftones, or 1 tone.

Lol, seems like you were in opposite mode ^^ I've been there.

disclaimer: practically

EDIT: hit me in the head. I was thinking swedish. Or something. It's confusing, but in classic circles a B is an international Bb and a H is an international B. Kinda, it's retarded anyway. And so am I apparantly :P
Last edited by descara at Dec 30, 2008,
Quote by descara
@JakdOnCrack

?? Bb to C would practically be a prime in tempered tuning or on a guitar or piano - B# to C would be a major 2nd though. Two semitones is litteraly two halftones, or 1 tone.

Lol, seems like you were in opposite mode ^^ I've been there.

disclaimer: [practically

Do you mean A# to C?
Okay, now that I think things through, that doesn't make sense either. I think I exchanged places with B and C in my mind somehow. I'll go to bed now (02:30 am here) . That's for trying to be smart.
jesus h christ what a mess

OP: There is a minor second in the Phrygian mode. You are wrong.

Quote by Archeo Avis
In which case the minor scale contains a major second.

The minor second is a flattened second, but the minor scale, from the root, goes up a major second, and then a minor third.
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Quote by liam177lewis
hey there,

im getting back into theory after several years, cause if i dont im getting kicked outa my music college having only JUST been enroled :P

one things come up and is puzzling me - the minor 2nd, (ie, if we're in the key of C, it'd be: C to Db). but, this doesnt come up in any of the minor scales - so ive always referred to it at the Perfect 2nd.... so im miffed....... does this therefore mean that the minor scale includes a Major interval? :S

what scales (other than chromatic), contain this m2?

cheers all, many thanks

the minor second is in the phrygian mode, i guess thats why its really popular with Kirk Hammet/ Yngwie Malmsteen type guitarists. isnt it also in the Locrian mode? although thats the one that nobody uses...
Oh man, what's going on in here...

The name of the minor second is pretty much there to distinguish it from the major second, not necessarily to imply that it is used in the minor scale. The names of the major and minor scale don't have a universal bearing on the intervals used in them.

EDIT: Yes, the minor scale does contain a major interval.
Quote by thegloaming
the minor second is in the phrygian mode, i guess thats why its really popular with Kirk Hammet/ Yngwie Malmsteen type guitarists. isnt it also in the Locrian mode? although thats the one that nobody uses...

"Type Guitarists" lol

Satriani - War (Phrygian/phrygian dominant)
Zelda (videogame)- spirit temple tune (E Phrygian(not too sure if it's in E, but definitely Phrygian)
N*e*r*d* - She wants to move (E Phrygian)
50 cent - In da club (Ab Phrygian)
Metallica - Enter Sandman (E locrian)

As you can see Phrygian (and sometimes even Locrian) is used in pretty diverse genres, so please don't' stereotype a mode with a guitarist.

On topic, TS if you just remember it's called b2 then EVERY musician in the world involved in western music will understand what u mean

common scales/modes with b2's;

Phrygian, Locrian & Phrygian dominant (5th mode harmonic minor)

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Dec 31, 2008,
Steve Vai - For the love of God (E phrygian intro/main theme)

For the Love of God is in E minor, as is Enter Sandman (the first few bars could conceivably be considered locrian).
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Quote by Archeo Avis
For the Love of God is in E minor, as is Enter Sandman (the first few bars could conceivably be considered locrian).

True on Enter Sandman that 1 is tricky.

FTLOG is a smart use of different things. The 2nd Chord is an F which doesn't fit into Em scale.

Using any other chord in an em scale here would totally ruin the main melody and harmony, cause it's so strong and is exactly what makes it sound so mysterious.

Em it's in theory, but I think it's better to call this hybrid Em/E Phrygian, because the b2 is not just used as a added note or colour, but is 1 of the if not most important part (FM7#11) which makes the chord progression sound different then any other Diatonic Em progression in existance.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Dec 31, 2008,
The very first chord is Emadd9, which is incompatible with phrygian. Nothing in the melody suggests the phrygian mode, and the harmony suggests E minor. We went through this already with Knockin' on Heaven's Door.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I seem to recall the song resolving to A, making it Am and making the Fmaj chord entirely diatonic.
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Last edited by Archeo Avis at Dec 31, 2008,
Quote by Archeo Avis
The very first chord is Emadd9, which is incompatible with phrygian. Nothing in the melody suggests the phrygian mode, and the harmony suggests E minor. We went through this already with Knockin' on Heaven's Door.

You must understand, I know very well how it's called/described in Western Theory, I just analyse it further then that.

If u tear the progression even more down it Implies F lydian over that particular chord due to the use of like 4 B notes when that chord plays and the chord itself.

Which comes down to that Vai uses Lydian based Ideas in almost every song of his. Just very smart "hidden" and use of "hybrid theory"(for the lack of better word).

Of course our theory system is quite basic in the descriptive rights and just calls it Em, but I can almost smell Vai thought "lydian" over that 2nd chord.

Maybe it's not basic, but maybe people can't be bothered to analyse it deeper, which I understand. Calling it "genius musicianship" does sound better then my analysis.

Quote by Archeo Avis

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I seem to recall the song resolving to A, making it Am and making the Fmaj chord entirely diatonic.

But it also resolves and starts on Em. Am is relative of C and If u take E as the resolvance it's E phrygian. The melody and the Harmony "dance" through each other in Em and E Phrygian.

I know it's Em, but this is just very smart use of theory through each other, and I think Em is very basic in it's description of harmony used in the song.

Please you don't have to convince me of what it is I know what it is, it's just that IN MY OPINION it's very basic description.

Only Problem I made was caught up in my own theories and being arrogant towards the "main western Theory". I will change that in my post on the previous page.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Dec 31, 2008,
Quote by xxdarrenxx
You must understand, I know very well how it's called/described in Western Theory, I just analyse it further then that.

Then don't use Western theoretical terms. "Phrygian" has a definition, and that definition does not apply to For the Love of God.

If u tear the progression even more down it Implies F lydian over that particular chord due to the use of like 4 B notes when that chord plays and the chord itself.

This is both misleading and completely irrelevant.

Which comes down to that Vai uses Lydian based Ideas in almost every song of his. Just very smart "hidden" and use of "hybrid theory"(for the lack of better word).

Irrelevant.

Of course our theory system is quite basic in the descriptive rights and just calls it Em, but I can almost smell Vai thought "lydian" over that 2nd chord.

Western tonal harmony is, by far, the most complex harmonic system in the world. It is not "basic".

Maybe it's not basic, but maybe people can't be bothered to analyse it deeper, which I understand. Calling it "genius musicianship" does sound better then my analysis.

Irrelevant.

Nothing you just posted is in any way related to your assertion the song is in E phrygian.

But it also resolves and starts on Em. Am is relative of C and If u take E as the resolvance it's E phrygian. The melody and the Harmony "dance" through each other in Em and E Phrygian.

That doesn't even make sense. It's not even wrong.

Only Problem I made was caught up in my own theories and being arrogant towards the "main western Theory".

No, your problem is that you use Western theoretical terms where they are completely inappropriate, indicating that you don't know what they mean. If you were using a different "theoretical system" you wouldn't have described the song as phrygian, which is a term used in Western musical theory.
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Last edited by Archeo Avis at Dec 31, 2008,
^^ You miss my point.

The song is not diatonically in Em.

And I don't think calling the 2nd chord Lydian based is misleading at all. The 2nd chord is non diatonic in Em, so why can't you call it a a brief modulation to F Lydian?

Vai uses changes to Lydian in like 80% of his work. If you understand how to use the Lydian mode, then you can make songs with exactly these kind of modulations.

I agree that Phrygian might not be the best way to call it. However, saying that it's Em is "Rape" to all those beautiful non diatonic ideas in that song.

I will say it like this. If I get a music theory test, I will call it Em. This doesn't mean I find this superbasic in analysis of the song.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Dec 31, 2008,