#1
(i checked the search bar and theres nothing good, but if you know a good thread about this, point me in the right direction!)

ok
i think i know "enough" about chords to compose some pretty cool songs.
i know all the different diatonic chords, including 7th's, 9th's, 11th's, and 13th's.

but, lately ive been really getting into jazz, and i wanted to know, what are jazz chord substitutions?
i know that a simple way is substituting a chord is the chord a 3rd either up or down.
and i know a little about "tri-tone" substitution.

could someone tell me more about jazz chord substitutions?



EDIT:
i went to google and it said the three most common substitutions are "tritone substitutions, the omitted/added root substitutions, and circle progression additions."

someone want to explain those for me?
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Last edited by musicTHEORYnerd at Dec 30, 2008,
#2
Here's a really common way to substitute chords. So you have a II-V-I In C, Dm7 to G7 to Cmaj7. You can substitute the V chord (G7) for a Db7 chord so it is Dm7-Db7-Cmaj7. Here's why that works. The tritone in G7 is B-F. In Db7 it is F-Cb(B). That works for any II-V-I and you can use that when comping, or when soloing and it is very useful when soloing even when the rhythm section isn't doing the substitution because you get all the nice tensions if you play the Db7 arpeggio over the G7.
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#3
Quote by Punk Poser
Here's a really common way to substitute chords. So you have a II-V-I In C, Dm7 to G7 to Cmaj7. You can substitute the V chord (G7) for a Db7 chord so it is Dm7-Db7-Cmaj7. Here's why that works. The tritone in G7 is B-F. In Db7 it is F-Cb(B). That works for any II-V-I and you can use that when comping, or when soloing and it is very useful when soloing even when the rhythm section isn't doing the substitution because you get all the nice tensions if you play the Db7 arpeggio over the G7.

thanks =]
i tryed it and it sounds cool

you know anymore?
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#4
For Tritone subs, you can exchange any dominant chord with another that is a tritone away. not just in ii-V-Is and whatnot.
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#5
Quote by aetherspear
For Tritone subs, you can exchange any dominant chord with another that is a tritone away. not just in ii-V-Is and whatnot.


so basically in a chord progression any dominant chord can be substituted with a dominant chord a tritone away?
what about dominant 9th chords?
can those be substituted with a dominant chord a tritone away?

im sorry im asking so many questions, im just SOO interested in jazz.
my 6 best friends:
Ibanez Artcore AF75
Schecter C-1 Hellraiser
LTD H-207 7 string
Ibanez Acoustic
#6
Yeah I'm pretty sure you can tri-tone sub any dominant chord no matter the extensions. If you want to learn more about jazz chords and stuff, I'd suggest a) PMing Galvanise69 and b) coming to Name That Chord and spending some time there.
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#7
Quote by Skater901
Yeah I'm pretty sure you can tri-tone sub any dominant chord no matter the extensions. If you want to learn more about jazz chords and stuff, I'd suggest a) PMing Galvanise69 and b) coming to Name That Chord and spending some time there.

yeah i always go to name that chord but i never post, i just try to do them in my head.

wouldnt Galvanise69 think its a little weird for some random person to PM him about chords?
i mean, if he doesnt think its weird, i will, but i dont want to creep him out lol
my 6 best friends:
Ibanez Artcore AF75
Schecter C-1 Hellraiser
LTD H-207 7 string
Ibanez Acoustic
#8
Probably not. Leave him a comment on his profile or PM him or something and he'd be glad to help I'm sure. Of course he'll tell you all the while that he's crap and he doesn't really know what he's talking about and such but he is pretty clever with this stuff.
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#9
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
so basically in a chord progression any dominant chord can be substituted with a dominant chord a tritone away?
what about dominant 9th chords?
can those be substituted with a dominant chord a tritone away?

im sorry im asking so many questions, im just SOO interested in jazz.


I wouldnt say that any dominant chord can be substituted with a dominant chord a tritone away at anytime. Creative discretion comes into play. If you're backing a vocalist then you dont want to clash with what the vocalist is doing. If you're a guitarist and you're playing with a pianist, same thing. You need a good ear to know when its a good time or bad time to substitute dominant chords with tritone subs.

Dont get me wrong I do it quite a bit. I play jazz on guitar and sax and I not only utilize tritone substitutions while I'm playing guitar but I will also use tritone sub arpeggios while I'm soloing on the sax.

Think if it more as a general rule but one that needs creative experimentation
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#10
Feel free to pm/comment me. I dont know exactally how much help I can be.

The basic stuff that can easily be found with a google search are

- Diatonic Chord Substitutes

- Tri-Tone Substitutes

- Coltrane Reharmonizations

- Min 3rd Subs

I mean, thats a lot of it really, if you have that stuff under your belt, thats most of the normal stuff you'd find in jazz.

You'd also probably have luck talking to

Thursdae, Skaterx901, edg, Demonofthenight, JohnLJones

But in all honesty, you'd be surprised what you'd find browsing the web.

Just for now, I might link you to one of my posts.
Last edited by Galvanise69 at Dec 30, 2008,
#12
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=546537
^check that thread. All great posters, pity only a few of them still post.

I can't think of anymore subs that haven't been mentioned.

Everyone knows about tritone subs so I'll skip them.

Alot of european jazz sub in chords that are a diatonic third away, like Cmaj7 can become Emin7 or Amin9. This sounds a little disjointed imo.

Another sub which is common in contemporary music (common in pop/rock) is to sub in a chord from the parallel minor key. Technically called a borrowed chord
So:
I = i
ii = ii0
iii = bIII or bIII+
IV = iv
V = V (let's try to keep dominant chords major, unless you're writing modal music)
vi = vi0 or bVI
vii0=vii0 (full diminished) or bVII
So this only really leaves IV to iv and vica-versa if you're in minor keys (in my twisted beliefs about harmony of course). Everything else won't sound that great, as it either means a diminished chord or it means changing the root.

Some jazz guys suggest just replacing some chords with dominant chords and extended chords of a similar type. This sort of works. If I was to do this with extended chords I'd analyse the melody I was harmonizing chords to first, I'd try to make sure I use as many melody notes in the extended chord as possible.
This isn't true substitution though. True substitution means changing the root or the quality of the chord (from minor to major to diminished to augmented).

Similar to the above, some guys change functioning dominants to altered dominant. This can sometimes work, but seeing as it's a functioning dominant it should resolve and altered dominants don't have as much lead to tonic chords imo.

You could also sub a functioning dominant chord with a diminished chord a major third away. To put this in chord degrees: V becomes vii0. This sort of works but sounds darker and not as resolved (nothing sounds as resolved as a V7 - I movement). You could kind of think that the vii0 chord is a rootless V9 chord.
Quote by John

I wouldnt say that any dominant chord can be substituted with a dominant chord a tritone away at anytime. Creative discretion comes into play. If you're backing a vocalist then you dont want to clash with what the vocalist is doing. If you're a guitarist and you're playing with a pianist, same thing. You need a good ear to know when its a good time or bad time to substitute dominant chords with tritone subs.
I agree to this. Sometimes you just shouldn't sub chords. Sometimes it's just plain wrong.

Like if the singing melody or the main melody of a song is emphasizing a fifth of the original chord, you'd be a fool to tritone sub that.

Aghhh, it's late here (yeah, happy new years guys ) so I'm probably just rambling.
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#14
Yeah, just buy any jazz theory book. You'll always find chapters devoted to
reharmonization.

In general, the situation and music will dictate good times to use them as well as
the ears of whoever you're playing with.

Rule of thumb for the tritone sub is where it will create a chromatic root movement.
#15
thanks alot everyone, i appreciate everyones help.
and to everyone who says i should buy the book, im going to as soon as i get money.
i love music theory books lol.

and im gonna PM Galvanise69 soon.

thanks =]
my 6 best friends:
Ibanez Artcore AF75
Schecter C-1 Hellraiser
LTD H-207 7 string
Ibanez Acoustic
#16
I don't believe in substitution.


The way I see it, there exists qualities which distinguish a part of something (a song everybody knows, a tune from a fakebook, whatever), and harmony is one of the weakest ones. As long as it (the quality) still remains, wholly or suggested or imagined, you can play whatever you choose. Calling it substitution and thinking of it that way immediately creates a box: Whether you think inside it it or out, it's still there, controlling what you do. The third option: There is no box.


But yeah as mentioned there are some very common things that are so close to the sound of the original (tritone subs aren't more than the original chord as a 7alt with a voice-led root) that they should be learned as idiosyncrasies necessary to the jazz language.