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#1
Lately I've been wondering what exactly it is that makes metal, metal. There's so many different sub-genres. And I'm not really sure what exactly they have in common besides distorted guitars, bass and drums. But then I see everywhere that metalcore isn't metal.

So why exactly is stuff like Blind Guardian, Cannibal Corpse and Burzum classified as metal (these are examples of bands that sound nothing alike to me). But x-core not ?
#2
Because the majority of the people who love metal hate metalcore, and call it poser-metal, atleast where i'm from. Metalcore is too whiny...
#3
metal core is most deffinitly metal its just quite a few UGers hate it so they try to distance it from the metal genre (i mean think about it, its called METAL core). I would say basicly it is just the fact that it has really heavy, distorted guitars, i couldnt actually say what made blues what is or why a certain band is rock, it just is lol
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#4
Metalcore is a sub-genre of metal and whoever told you it isn't is just your typical metal elitist. I don't like using "core" labels just cause it builds more walls and divides the style more and more which leads to more and more douchebaggery (yes i had to make that up). Some of it has to do with theory such as using minor scales and tritones and all that but a lot of comes from the way the music is played. The techniques involved and the guitar tone all play a large role in getting that "metal" sound. Its almost like theory sets the foundation and the techniques, tone, etc add detail and finish shaping it.
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#5
Metal is where the guitars make up the overall sound for at least like 70%.

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#7
Well, metal must have heavy distorted guitar, powerful sound and fast rhythm. Metalcore is metal and in fact has all of them. But for example nu-metal is not metal because there are no (or rare) solos nor complex riffs.
Last edited by Poglia at Jan 3, 2009,
#8
Quote by Poglia
Well, Metal must have heavy distorted guitar, powerful sound and fast rhythm, but even metalcore and nu-metal have them. I really don't know then.


Not fast rhythm. It's just where the guitars play a huge part in the overall sound.

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#9
metal core is metal as well, but the really **** part of metal, where noobs make their money.
#10
Quote by Poglia
Well, metal must have heavy distorted guitar, powerful sound and fast rhythm. Metalcore is metal and in fact has all of them. But for example nu-metal is not metal because there are no (or rare) solos nor complex riffs.


Here we have an example of what I was talking about. Nu-metal IS metal hence the word METAL in the name.Now if you want to discuss whether or not it's GOOD metal, that would be pointless.

Just because the song doesn't have shred your face off solos, insanely technical riffs, or the same open sting chugging breakdown doesn't mean it isn't metal.
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#12
Yeah I'm not really talking about whether it's good or not, because that's somewhat subjective and leads to flamewars
I actually don't like most metalcore, but then again I don't like most black metal either. It's not just UG that considers metalcore trash, most "true" metalheads do.

So to get back to my original quetion. I'm pretty sure that at least complexity isn't a deciding factor to whether it's metal or not, because there's a lot of really simple metal out there (not that it's a bad thing).
#13
Metal is generally defined as having a large guitar part, minor keys, generally fast (not always, however) tempos, and a bass guitar and drum set among other things performing rhythmic work beneath the guitars.
#14
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Not fast rhythm. It's just where the guitars play a huge part in the overall sound.

Guitars play a huge part in the overall sound of classical guitar groups too . I was wondering, where did that definition come from?

TS, descriptions of genres are very subjective, because genres are very subjective. Because if this most clear cut definitions fail when put into practise because bands that are very clearly in the genre will be left out and ones that are not will be included
#15
Someone here help an old guy out and give me a few examples of metalcore bands - are you talking bands like Shadows Fall, Killswitch Engage? And if so what makes them metalcore - is it how they occasionally switch from growling vocals to "pretty", melodic singing? Because other then that I hear a lot of what I think of as typical metal sounds in their music: no keyboards (thank goodness), cranked Marshall sound, galloping rhythms, phrygian mode, tritones, etc.

But then again I grew up listening to Sabbath so my idea of what = "metal" may be outdated
#16
Quote by guitarviz
Someone here help an old guy out and give me a few examples of metalcore bands - are you talking bands like Shadows Fall, Killswitch Engage? And if so what makes them metalcore - is it how they occasionally switch from growling vocals to "pretty", melodic singing? Because other then that I hear a lot of what I think of as typical metal sounds in their music: no keyboards (thank goodness), cranked Marshall sound, galloping rhythms, phrygian mode, tritones, etc.

But then again I grew up listening to Sabbath so my idea of what = "metal" may be outdated


I think the only reason Shadows Fall would be considered metalcore is because they can switch from heavy songs to soft songs and still sound good. I think metalhead elitists hate metalcore because it sounds better than most metal. Yeah I went there *flameshield*
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#17
@guitarviz

I would say that the "pretty" melodic singing (not that it's exclusive to metalcore in the metal genre) together with the overall "modern" feel of metalcore as well as the breakdowns is what most would say set metalcore apart.

Though there's keyboards (or at least playbacked string and/or piano synths) in plenty of metalcore as well as "regular" metal bands.


EDIT: oh god someone shoot me, I'm using "quote marks" in a "eye-hurting" "way".
Last edited by descara at Jan 3, 2009,
#18
Quote by shadesofanger
I think the only reason Shadows Fall would be considered metalcore is because they can switch from heavy songs to soft songs and still sound good.

Wrong.

You can have a heavy song and a soft songs and still make it metal (without the core).

I think I've heard that what makes metalcore is a breakdown thingymajigg, though I wouldn't know, since I don't listen to metalcore.
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#20
Quote by jolleymuse
metal core is most deffinitly metal its just quite a few UGers hate it so they try to distance it from the metal genre (i mean think about it, its called METAL core). I would say basicly it is just the fact that it has really heavy, distorted guitars, i couldnt actually say what made blues what is or why a certain band is rock, it just is lol


This person, right here. Is the reason why I hate "metal core" and "metal core kids." If you're too stupid to put together a simple paragraph of word. Then what the hell allows you to classify your ****ty music under metal?

I'm not saying I'm smart, but I DEFINITELY know metal core is gay.
#21
Quote by TheToasted
This person, right here. Is the reason why I hate "metal core" and "metal core kids." If you're too stupid to put together a simple paragraph of word. Then what the hell allows you to classify your ****ty music under metal?

I'm not saying I'm smart, but I DEFINITELY know metal core is gay.

Lol, you're accusing someone else of not being able to put a simple paragraph together?

Try replacing some of the full stops with commas.
#22
*sigh*

To satisfy both crowds:

Metalcore and Nu-metal are both subgenres of metal. They're ****, but they are metal.
#23
Why are people talking about it having to be essentially guitar based? If I play Raining Blood by Slayer on a church organ, is it no longer metal?
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i take it next your going to tell me that Cb is a note too!
#24
What would make it metal? That is assuming you played it on just a church organ.
Would it be the fact that it was written by a metal band, or are the actual tones metal?

If the latter, couldn't lots of metal be called folk music, pop, classic, w/e and vice versa?


EDIT:

My point: that wouldn't really make sense.
#25
The point is, musical genres are far broader and harder to define than people think.

Metal is characterised by aggression. It's the only consistent element of all true "metal" tracks. How this is achieved doesn't matter - any instrument can play metal, it just is just easier achieved on specific ones.

A good musician knows that no musical style is exclusive to any instrument, or vice versa.
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i take it next your going to tell me that Cb is a note too!
#26
Quote by 2mins2midnite
metal core is metal as well, but the really **** part of metal, where noobs make their money.

(1st of all, your allowed your own opinion and so am i, i dont want to argue)


but why do you think metal core is ****???
listen to august burns red, they have some insane timings, and they're "metal core".


*sigh*

To satisfy both crowds:

Metalcore and Nu-metal are both subgenres of metal. They're ****, but they are metal.

why do people think metal core is crap?
just because its not as obsessively heavy its crap?
(once again i dont want to argue, i just want to know peoples opinions)
if you think metal core is crap, listen to august burns red or all that remains, they are both very talented.
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Last edited by musicTHEORYnerd at Jan 3, 2009,
#27
@MeltedMetal

Hm, point taken, but still - take alot of folk, power, symponic and gothic metal (which all mostly are considered okay genres by the kvlt trve-ists). There can be a total lack of agression while still being seen as metal due to heavy drums and guitars.


EDIT: don't mean to be nit-picky here!
#28
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
(1st of all, your allowed your own opinion and so am i, i dont want to argue)


but why do you think metal core is ****???
listen to august burns red, they have some insane timings, and they're "metal core".


why do people think metal core is crap?
just because its not as obsessively heavy its crap?
(once again i dont want to argue, i just want to know peoples opinions)
if you think metal core is crap, listen to august burns red or all that remains, they are both very talented.


I'm one of those metalheads who hates metalcore, as I just don't like how it sounds... metalcore always seems to me to lack the spirit that metal has. although I have a few friends who like both... it just doesn't appeal to me, and that difference is a large reason a lot of "metalheads" count metalcore as a seperate genre... it just doesn't fit in with "real" metal.

EDIT: Also, a big reason for the seemingly unfounded vehemence against metalcore is because it gets classified with metal, and it just doesn't seem to belong there... its like a watered down, lamer form of metal.

I realize that I stated some opinions as facts, but thats just how I see it. No offense to anyone who likes metalcore, but many people prefer to keep it as a seperate genre. I don't think theres a problem with it, but you can't recommend someone Killswitch and go "Hey look, this is a cool metal band!"
Last edited by blakkin at Jan 3, 2009,
#29
Quote by descara
There can be a total lack of agression while still being seen as metal due to heavy drums and guitars.!

I don't know about you, but I would say heavy drums and guitars demonstrate aggression too.

In the cases where the instruments themselves do not convey aggression, you will often find that the theme or it's lyrics compensate. This is especially evident in in the subgenres you named.
Practice. Play. Sleep. Repeat.

Quote by pearlJam_31490
i take it next your going to tell me that Cb is a note too!
#30
Well, I think that a piece can be heavy without being aggressive, hell even have growl without being aggressive, but then again maybe I'm a bit ****ed up as well . I'll simply have to disagree. Anyhow, I'm off to bed now/soon, peace out!
#31
Quote by blakkin
I'm one of those metalheads who hates metalcore, as I just don't like how it sounds... metalcore always seems to me to lack the spirit that metal has. although I have a few friends who like both... it just doesn't appeal to me, and that difference is a large reason a lot of "metalheads" count metalcore as a seperate genre... it just doesn't fit in with "real" metal.

EDIT: Also, a big reason for the seemingly unfounded vehemence against metalcore is because it gets classified with metal, and it just doesn't seem to belong there... its like a watered down, lamer form of metal.

I realize that I stated some opinions as facts, but thats just how I see it. No offense to anyone who likes metalcore, but many people prefer to keep it as a seperate genre. I don't think theres a problem with it, but you can't recommend someone Killswitch and go "Hey look, this is a cool metal band!"

i respect your opinion, but i personally cant tell the difference between metal core and all the other different types of metal.
lol also i think its a little weird that "metal core" is ussually less heavy than "metal".
(core = a heavy sounding word to me )

idk, personally i like alot of differeny types of metal (along with all the other genres i enjoy like jazz, the blues, and classical)
i like some of as blood runs black, but i LOVE august burns red.

i dont know, when i classify them, i call them "heavy"
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#32
You can tell metal-core is metal-core because it has hardcore influences in it. Maybe the vocals, maybe the breakdowns.. who knows. Metal is classified as metal because of how the music is arranged, you can't call metal pop because pop is the catchy crap you hear on the radio that uses the boring ass I IV V chord progressions that are catchy as hell. There is folk metal though, I'm not sure what that's all about.. lol.
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#33
Quote by RabbidWolf
You can tell metal-core is metal-core because it has hardcore influences in it. Maybe the vocals, maybe the breakdowns.. who knows. Metal is classified as metal because of how the music is arranged, you can't call metal pop because pop is the catchy crap you hear on the radio that uses the boring ass I IV V chord progressions that are catchy as hell. There is folk metal though, I'm not sure what that's all about.. lol.


its amazing, thats what its about.

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(For some good solid folk metal, try finntroll, korpiklaani, and equilibrium)

EDIT:

Also, see most of the people who complain about metalcore vs. metal can easily tell the difference between the two.
#34
Quote by blakkin
its amazing, thats what its about.

Wearing my Finntroll shirt right now

(For some good solid folk metal, try finntroll, korpiklaani, and equilibrium)

EDIT:

Also, see most of the people who complain about metalcore vs. metal can easily tell the difference between the two.

alright I'll check it out man lol
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#35
Quote by TheToasted
I'm not saying I'm smart, but I DEFINITELY know metal core is gay.



Well I'm pretty sure no one will ever mistake you for being smart ever again with that comment......
#36
Well metalcore is a hybrid genre between hardcore (heavy punk) and metal. It can be seen as a subgenre of both punk and metal. Most bands can be placed in so many different genres though, and I think its somewhat pointless to make a big issue out of it. In the end the best way to know a bands sound is to hear it; you can't accurately depict a band's sound with just words. I personally think that metalcore and metal differ little in the end product, but the influences are definitely different.
#37
Quote by jpgilbert701
Here we have an example of what I was talking about. Nu-metal IS metal hence the word METAL in the name.Now if you want to discuss whether or not it's GOOD metal, that would be pointless.

Just because the song doesn't have shred your face off solos, insanely technical riffs, or the same open sting chugging breakdown doesn't mean it isn't metal.


Apart from the use of distortion and palm muting..... which are used in just about every form of rock music..... Nu-Metal has absolutely nothing in common with what is defined as heavy metal music. Nu-metal is post-grunge with seven strings and saggy pants.

Now, as for "metalcore"...... it really is a watered down take on the crossover thrash style that D.R.I., Agnostic Front, and the Cro-Mags played. This would make it more of a hardcore sub genre than a metal sub genre.
#38
Quote by Second Rate
Apart from the use of distortion and palm muting..... which are used in just about every form of rock music..... Nu-Metal has absolutely nothing in common with what is defined as heavy metal music. Nu-metal is post-grunge with seven strings and saggy pants.

Now, as for "metalcore"...... it really is a watered down take on the crossover thrash style that D.R.I., Agnostic Front, and the Cro-Mags played. This would make it more of a hardcore sub genre than a metal sub genre.



Please post links to definitive sources as to where you're pulling this information from. I was under the impression up until now that music was whatever you wanted it to be for yourself. I didn't know the entire genre of metalcore was based on simplified music from three underground bands.
#39
Quote by jolleymuse
metal core is most deffinitly metal its just quite a few UGers hate it so they try to distance it from the metal genre (i mean think about it, its called METAL core). I would say basicly it is just the fact that it has really heavy, distorted guitars, i couldnt actually say what made blues what is or why a certain band is rock, it just is lol

using the blues or rock is a very bad example
#40
Metal is pretty much what the name implies. It's heavy, solid...metallic And there's also an approach and timbre to it, because playing Slayer on a church organ would not generate the same level of intensity and all that.
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