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#41
Quote by Trickycindy


But the real point is, if your country tortures people, then it can expect it's citizens/soldiers to be tortured in the same manner.



What the fuck

Yeah, obviously everyone in countries which allow torture condones it. Christ.

Quote by crazy8rgood
Yes, if you can justify it.

If the torturee (is that a word?) is a terrorist, and kills people, or something like that, sure as hell you should torture his ass for information.

Just my opinion


Learn the concept of 'reasonable doubt'. Also, false information? People will say what the torturers want to hear, given enough pain.
Last edited by webbtje at Jan 4, 2009,
#42
when the lives of many depend on the information that one person has, then i believe that it is acceptable
however, as for what i have heard about torture at Gitmo, that is unacceptable
Quote by :-D
I once saw somebody carry a Guitar Hero controller in a case to protect it. He probably should have packed his testicles in there too, seeing as he won't need to use those for quite a while.


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#43
Quote by aedmiston
It's been a legitimate procedure in warfare for thousands of years. Why we started to puss out on it now is beyond me.


because we've progressed beyond that, also we discovered that it does a lot more harm than good in the long run.
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#44
Quote by Tubyboulin
Not just some random person / petty criminal. But if during war there was a captured leader who had some really important info that could save a lot of lives but he refuses to tell, then sure torture away till he tells. I dont meen regular soldiers though, because that would get you useless info and torture isn't exactly something you should do on a whim.

not even during war I don't think.

the information he has is only going to be used to kill a bunch of their soldiers rather than allowing them to kill a bunch of yours. So it's not as if you can use the justification of 'sacrifice one to save many'.

not to mention that you'd likely get false info
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#45
Quote by King ofKumbucha
I know right. I know a few sick individuals that like pain...


Most of the metal forum, no?
#46
Quote by happytimeharry
The only thing you're going to get from torturing someone is false information.


Exactly you torture someone enough they're just gonna tell you exactly what you want to hear despite it being true or not.
My Last.FM



"The more you think, the better you're going to play. That should be a quote somewhere."
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#47
Quote by Kid_Thorazine
because we've progressed beyond that, also we discovered that it does a lot more harm than good in the long run.


Or we like to think we've progressed beyond it. We haven't, and that's cold hard fact. Until every last terrorist sect in the Middle East, every bandit in Africa, and every heroin supplier in East Asia decides to adhere to the UN's standards, we have not progressed beyond it. And to not torture, and give the enemy an advantage is a good idea? Are you French? XD
The Conservative youth of America!
#49
Quote by webbtje
Masochists might well be the ultimate terrorists.

Hey now!

We are not terrosist, nor affiliated with any!

We simply enjoy living a an alternative lifestyle
Quote by TunerAddict,mdawg24
+Infinity

Listen to ExtremeMetalFTW, he knows what he is talking about...

Quote by vmanoman
I clicked System Restore and it said "System Restore Is Unable To Protect You".

^^SO KVLT!!
#50
Josef Mengele aka used to torture twins in Auswitz to see if the other twin would feel the same pain. Pretty sick.
#51
Quote by ExtremeMetalFTW
Hey now!

We are not terrosist, nor affiliated with any!

We simply enjoy living a an alternative lifestyle


Fine, fine, the best terrorists should be masochists

Quote by aedmiston
Are you French? XD



I am. What exactly are you trying to say, child?
#52
Quote by RazerX
irish intelligence such an oxymoron


i found its called styrofoam

oh dear god

styrofoam is a product made out of polystyrene.
it took me less than 5 seconds to find that out.
polystyrene is called polystyrene in america, just as iron is called iron in america.
dumbass.
Quote by stringsquealer
dude you have a razorback explosion?!?!
im so jealous


Quote by Kyle.E
Munky has a reason. A reason to live. *applauds*

#53
Quote by aedmiston
Or we like to think we've progressed beyond it. We haven't, and that's cold hard fact. Until every last terrorist sect in the Middle East, every bandit in Africa, and every heroin supplier in East Asia decides to adhere to the UN's standards, we have not progressed beyond it. And to not torture, and give the enemy an advantage is a good idea? Are you French? XD

The hereoin supplier will not be a problem if peopel are truly informed about drugs and can legally atke them as long as nobody else is hurt

The bandit in Africa will not be a problem if poverty is eliminated

The terrorist sects in the Middle East will not be a problem if we all learn to accept everyone's beliefs and we progress beyond intolerance and hatred

This why we don't progress: because p[eopel refuse to omove on from teh past, and leanr from all of the mistakes we have made.
Quote by TunerAddict,mdawg24
+Infinity

Listen to ExtremeMetalFTW, he knows what he is talking about...

Quote by vmanoman
I clicked System Restore and it said "System Restore Is Unable To Protect You".

^^SO KVLT!!
#54
I don't believe torture is ever justified.

I often wish I could have a conversation with someone who actually does the torturing, just to see what kind of people they are. Just to find out what their childhood was like. Whether or not they enjoy their job. Stuff like that.
XIAOXI
Last edited by Abunai X at Jan 4, 2009,
#55
Quote by munkymanmatt
oh dear god

styrofoam is a product made out of polystyrene.
it took me less than 5 seconds to find that out.
polystyrene is called polystyrene in america, just as iron is called iron in america.
dumbass.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but nobody in America calls it polystrene.
Quote by TunerAddict,mdawg24
+Infinity

Listen to ExtremeMetalFTW, he knows what he is talking about...

Quote by vmanoman
I clicked System Restore and it said "System Restore Is Unable To Protect You".

^^SO KVLT!!
#56
Quote by ExtremeMetalFTW
Sorry to burst your bubble, but nobody in America calls it polystrene.


ah but thats cause everyone calls it by the main brand name. like everyone talking about cola says coke (as in coca cola)
Quote by stringsquealer
dude you have a razorback explosion?!?!
im so jealous


Quote by Kyle.E
Munky has a reason. A reason to live. *applauds*

#57
Quote by crazy8rgood
Yes, if you can justify it.

If the torturee (is that a word?) is a terrorist, and kills people, or something like that, sure as hell you should torture his ass for information.

Just my opinion

The point of being anti-terrorism is being against using fear to get what you want out of people.
Quote by aedmiston
Or we like to think we've progressed beyond it. We haven't, and that's cold hard fact. Until every last terrorist sect in the Middle East, every bandit in Africa, and every heroin supplier in East Asia decides to adhere to the UN's standards, we have not progressed beyond it. And to not torture, and give the enemy an advantage is a good idea? Are you French? XD

Please, the USA constantly disregards what the U.N. has to say. Get off your high horse.
Quote by vintage x metal
I love you =] I can't say I was very fond of you when we first started talking because you trolled the hell out of my threads, but after talking to you here I've grown very attached to you.

Yeah, write to my fanclub about it, honey.
Last edited by Jack Off Jill at Jan 4, 2009,
#58
Quote by ExtremeMetalFTW
Sorry to burst your bubble, but nobody in America calls it polystrene.

#59
Quote by Jack Off Jill
The point of being anti-terrorism is being against using fear to get what you want out of people.

Please, the USA constantly disregards what the U.N. has to say. Get off your high horse.


aaannd we have a WINNER!
Quote by stringsquealer
dude you have a razorback explosion?!?!
im so jealous


Quote by Kyle.E
Munky has a reason. A reason to live. *applauds*

#61
Quote by RazerX

omfg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styrofoam
read.
it's called polystyrene, styrofoam is a brand name, it's not polystyrene its styrofoam, so when someone syays "styrofoam" they're not talking about polystyrene.
Quote by stringsquealer
dude you have a razorback explosion?!?!
im so jealous


Quote by Kyle.E
Munky has a reason. A reason to live. *applauds*

#62
This polystyrene argument is somewhat redundant, no?


Also, to what JoJ said... this. Cannae be bothered to quote.
#63
Quote by webbtje
This polystyrene argument is somewhat redundant, no?


Also, to what JoJ said... this. Cannae be bothered to quote.

hey dude im sure youd be pretty pissed if someone insulted your nationality.
Quote by stringsquealer
dude you have a razorback explosion?!?!
im so jealous


Quote by Kyle.E
Munky has a reason. A reason to live. *applauds*

#64
Quote by webbtje
This polystyrene argument is somewhat redundant, no?


Also, to what JoJ said... this. Cannae be bothered to quote.



redundant. Styrofoam the worst torture ever (cotton wool not too nice either)
#65
Quote by Lemoninfluence
not even during war I don't think.

the information he has is only going to be used to kill a bunch of their soldiers rather than allowing them to kill a bunch of yours. So it's not as if you can use the justification of 'sacrifice one to save many'.

not to mention that you'd likely get false info


I ment more as a last resort, not just "Ok we've captured this leader. Time to torture" If it was a pretty dire situation, i think it would be feasable. Especially if civilian lives were at risk.
#66
Quote by Tubyboulin
I ment more as a last resort, not just "Ok we've captured this leader. Time to torture" If it was a pretty dire situation, i think it would be feasable. Especially if civilian lives were at risk.

you couldn't rely on the info though.

the only way you'd know if they were telling the truth is if you had corroborating evidence and if that's the case why not just use that evidence to make your decision?
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#67
Quote by munkymanmatt
ah but thats cause everyone calls it by the main brand name. like everyone talking about cola says coke (as in coca cola)

that's not a good example; a good exampel would be Jello and gelatin
Quote by TunerAddict,mdawg24
+Infinity

Listen to ExtremeMetalFTW, he knows what he is talking about...

Quote by vmanoman
I clicked System Restore and it said "System Restore Is Unable To Protect You".

^^SO KVLT!!
#68
Quote by RazerX
redundant. Styrofoam the worst torture ever (cotton wool not too nice either)



What the hell are you on about? Stop spamming.

Quote by munkymanmatt
hey dude im sure youd be pretty pissed if someone insulted your nationality.



Someone did darl, read the thread again.
#69
Quote by Tubyboulin
I ment more as a last resort, not just "Ok we've captured this leader. Time to torture" If it was a pretty dire situation, i think it would be feasable. Especially if civilian lives were at risk.

Do you know how many people admitted to being witches in Salem? And how many women claimed to have nightly sexual sessions with Satan during the Inquisition?
Quote by vintage x metal
I love you =] I can't say I was very fond of you when we first started talking because you trolled the hell out of my threads, but after talking to you here I've grown very attached to you.

Yeah, write to my fanclub about it, honey.
#70
No, just no.
I'm dancing in the moonlight
It's caught me in its spotlight
Dancing in the moonlight
On this long hot summer night


Martin D-28
#71
Quote by webbtje

Someone did darl, read the thread again.


sorry?
i meant when he said something like "irish intelligence pfft"
and also darl?
Quote by stringsquealer
dude you have a razorback explosion?!?!
im so jealous


Quote by Kyle.E
Munky has a reason. A reason to live. *applauds*

#72
Quote by ExtremeMetalFTW
The hereoin supplier will not be a problem if peopel are truly informed about drugs and can legally atke them as long as nobody else is hurt

The bandit in Africa will not be a problem if poverty is eliminated

The terrorist sects in the Middle East will not be a problem if we all learn to accept everyone's beliefs and we progress beyond intolerance and hatred

This why we don't progress: because p[eopel refuse to omove on from teh past, and leanr from all of the mistakes we have made.


I'd just like to point out the fact that "we" are the ones that have learned to accept everyone's beliefs and progress beyond intolerance and hatred, for the most part at least. It's "they", the terrorist groups, that do not accept everyone's beliefs, and the pacifism they have met from the "socially developed" countries of the world only encourages them to commit further atrocities because they know they can get away with it without meeting any kind of formal, organized, resistance. The fear of being seen as intolerant and close-minded, two things that American liberals and the vast majority of Europeans pride themselves in avoiding, has propelled modern society into a system of foreign policy that is unwilling to commit to exterminating a problem for fear of claimed social discrimination and intolerance. The UN serves as the ultimate example of this facet of society being visible in the modern world. Correct me if I'm wrong.
UG's Catholic Theologian.

Gear: Carvin DC127, Vox AD30VT, Dunlop Original Crybaby, Boss RC20XL, MXR Phase 90, Boss DD-3 Delay, EHX Nano LPB-1, Planet Waves Chromatic Tuner.
Breedlove AC20 Acoustic Guitar w/ Fishman Classic 4 pickup.

#73
Quote by Tamit
I'd just like to point out the fact that "we" are the ones that have learned to accept everyone's beliefs and progress beyond intolerance and hatred, for the most part at least. It's "they", the terrorist groups, that do not accept everyone's beliefs, and the pacifism they have met from the "socially developed" countries of the world only encourages them to commit further atrocities because they know they can get away with it without meeting any kind of formal, organized, resistance. The fear of being seen as intolerant and close-minded, two things that American liberals and the vast majority of Europeans pride themselves in avoiding, has propelled modern society into a system of foreign policy that is unwilling to commit to exterminating a problem for fear of claimed social discrimination and intolerance. The UN serves as the ultimate example of this facet of society being visible in the modern world. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Since you decided to bring up liberals, I'd like to point out it was the conservative supported war which has led to an increase in terrorist attacks.. what.. tripling it? And more civilian dependance on the Taliban in the Middle East, even though the Civilians don't much like the Taliban, either. But since they don't like seeing their houses blown up, and their children shredded limb from limb by air raids.. they fight back with a group of people who are already committed to fighting back.

You're right, though. It was us liberals who caused it.
Quote by vintage x metal
I love you =] I can't say I was very fond of you when we first started talking because you trolled the hell out of my threads, but after talking to you here I've grown very attached to you.

Yeah, write to my fanclub about it, honey.
#74
"If torture will save even one US GI, all I've got to say is, 'Black- negative. Red- positive.'"

Paraphrased, but good point IMO.
Gear...
Peavey 5150, Squier, Ibanez RG2EX2, Yamaha F150, Ibanez RT150, MXR noisegate
#75
Quote by Jack Off Jill
Since you decided to bring up liberals, I'd like to point out it was the conservative supported war which has led to an increase in terrorist attacks.. what.. tripling it? And more civilian dependance on the Taliban in the Middle East, even though the Civilians don't much like the Taliban, either. But since they don't like seeing their houses blown up, and their children shredded limb from limb by air raids.. they fight back with a group of people who are already committed to fighting back.

You're right, though. It was us liberals who caused it.


Fair enough. I do apologize for making this a liberal vs. conservative debate when it far exceeds such trivial labels for a time when the dividing line between both sides is far less obvious than it may seem. But that doesn't change the fact that the terrorists hold beliefs that are entirely contradictory to our very way of life. They hate us for our existence, and it is that belief that caused events such as 9/11 and the Madrid or London bombings to occur, not some misguided war in a foreign land that we don't even belong in. Not like fighting people who want to kill us is a good cause or anything... I don't know, but sometimes I think that people forget that 9/11 happened before the war in Iraq, and that subsequent terrorist attacks are more a result of inspiration from 9/11 than retaliation against our military occupation.
UG's Catholic Theologian.

Gear: Carvin DC127, Vox AD30VT, Dunlop Original Crybaby, Boss RC20XL, MXR Phase 90, Boss DD-3 Delay, EHX Nano LPB-1, Planet Waves Chromatic Tuner.
Breedlove AC20 Acoustic Guitar w/ Fishman Classic 4 pickup.

#76
No, first of its inhuman, second torture has been proven to almost always give false evidence. I mean if you were being tortured, you'd say whatever they wanted to hear to get it to stop, whether it was true or not. This could include false confessions, lieing about different people being involved, anything. If this was acceptable in prosecution or anything, then the number of innocent people in jail would skyrocket.
#77
Quote by Tamit
Fair enough. I do apologize for making this a liberal vs. conservative debate when it far exceeds such trivial labels for a time when the dividing line between both sides is far less obvious than it may seem. But that doesn't change the fact that the terrorists hold beliefs that are entirely contradictory to our very way of life. They hate us for our existence, and it is that belief that caused events such as 9/11 and the Madrid or London bombings to occur, not some misguided war in a foreign land that we don't even belong in. Not like fighting people who want to kill us is a good cause or anything... I don't know, but sometimes I think that people forget that 9/11 happened before the war in Iraq, and that subsequent terrorist attacks are more a result of inspiration from 9/11 than retaliation against our military occupation.

Actually, I imagine the 9/11 thing may have been caused by an alleged threat made to the Taliban a few months before 9/11.

It happened because our country forgets that we trained them so we could exploit them to obtain goals for us. And then once we were through using them as soldiers.. soldiers with weapons.. we left them to their own devices. So, now you've got all these different groups of people with military training, and the weapons they need to bully people around. Though, every once in awhile there would be a small uprising, which we could then quell with major over kill, which we've got quite a history of doing.. IE Nicuragua.. and once they had had enough of that, they're gonna strike back in a big attack. Bin Laden said in his video that he did it because he wanted to goad America into a war we couldn't win so he could cripple our economy. He did.

He had political reasons for doing so, it wasn't just religious. The religion was exploited in a lot of people. It's not much different than our President bringing up God in speeches he was making AGAINST the axis of evil, which can be used to exploit Christian families into joining the military. And although it's called jihaad, it's still a political war for them as well. It's the same as calling the Colonial Patriots terrorists.
Quote by vintage x metal
I love you =] I can't say I was very fond of you when we first started talking because you trolled the hell out of my threads, but after talking to you here I've grown very attached to you.

Yeah, write to my fanclub about it, honey.
Last edited by Jack Off Jill at Jan 4, 2009,
#78
Quote by Tamit
I'd just like to point out the fact that "we" are the ones that have learned to accept everyone's beliefs and progress beyond intolerance and hatred, for the most part at least. It's "they", the terrorist groups, that do not accept everyone's beliefs, and the pacifism they have met from the "socially developed" countries of the world only encourages them to commit further atrocities because they know they can get away with it without meeting any kind of formal, organized, resistance. The fear of being seen as intolerant and close-minded, two things that American liberals and the vast majority of Europeans pride themselves in avoiding, has propelled modern society into a system of foreign policy that is unwilling to commit to exterminating a problem for fear of claimed social discrimination and intolerance. The UN serves as the ultimate example of this facet of society being visible in the modern world. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I say "we" as in "we humans"

Everyone must learn to accept others and forget to hate
Quote by TunerAddict,mdawg24
+Infinity

Listen to ExtremeMetalFTW, he knows what he is talking about...

Quote by vmanoman
I clicked System Restore and it said "System Restore Is Unable To Protect You".

^^SO KVLT!!
#79
Quote by ExtremeMetalFTW
I say "we" as in "we humans"

Everyone must learn to accept others and forget to hate


God, I hate to say this, but I must leave for the night now. I have to say, I do enjoy your debate, and I will look forward to future encounters And, to be on topic, I do not approve of torture, in any circumstance.
UG's Catholic Theologian.

Gear: Carvin DC127, Vox AD30VT, Dunlop Original Crybaby, Boss RC20XL, MXR Phase 90, Boss DD-3 Delay, EHX Nano LPB-1, Planet Waves Chromatic Tuner.
Breedlove AC20 Acoustic Guitar w/ Fishman Classic 4 pickup.

#80
Quote by Tamit
God, I hate to say this, but I must leave for the night now. I have to say, I do enjoy your debate, and I will look forward to future encounters And, to be on topic, I do not approve of torture, in any circumstance.

its cool man, its like what ,midnight in georgia?
Quote by TunerAddict,mdawg24
+Infinity

Listen to ExtremeMetalFTW, he knows what he is talking about...

Quote by vmanoman
I clicked System Restore and it said "System Restore Is Unable To Protect You".

^^SO KVLT!!