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#1
okay i just want some affirmation and advice if i've got my gear right. i know jimmy page has tones of sweet tones. but the one i'm particularly inclined and like the most would be something like: heartbreaker, and since i've been loving you.

so, i've planned on the gear i will be acquiring in the near future.

i have a gibson les paul studio, with a bigsby tremolo coming very soon. other than that, everything is stock. (except a sweet zoso sticker on the pickguard)

pickups i intend to swap them out with custom ordered pickups from WB custom pickups. it will be in the PAF camp and the bridge pickup t-top-ish. pickups will be wired to be out of phase with a push pull pot. is series wiring and coil tap necessary?

so guitars settled, as for the amp. a marshall vintage modern 2466CC, the 50 watt combo.

my pedalboard would be a

- crybaby 535 thats modded to have extra treble on tap
- analogman beano boost
- menatone king of the britains

would this get me close to jimmy page's tone? is there anything i should add or do? like a cello bow?
Last edited by DudeLove at Jan 5, 2009,
#4
yeah i've checked that thread out thousands of times.

i like jimmy pages tone. i'm not forming a cover band. but i'd like to come close to page's tone when i play. esp when covering led zep songs. get what i mean? in fact, with the gear i have mentioned, what makes u think i cannot obtain other tones? i have many other influences too.
#5
The only time Page was out of phase during Led Zeppelin was the You Shook Me solo which was the Tele, just so you know. He did not have any extra wiring during Led Zeppelin this includes, phase switching, series/parallel and coil split.

If we're talking studio tones, the Heartbreaker tone won't be easy to get it. It was a unique amp, a Rickenbacker Transonic. Page even called the amp awful but he recorded it with it. The solo is a Marshall however. Since I've Been Loving You was another unique amp, Page randomly found it in the studio, not an easy tone to get and you probably never will. Live tones on the other hand that setup should do it decently.

Personally I never liked a Rangemaster for Page's tones either, after all he never used it. That wah is fine, do you already own it? Never tried the KoTB so I really won't comment on it.
#6
hmmm.. i thought page used out of phase for the solo of the ocean?

i already own the wah. could u tell me when jimmy page used the marshall plexi? yeah i've read quite alot of that info u just told me from the crotm thread u did.
#7
Quote by DudeLove
okay i just want some affirmation and advice if i've got my gear right. i know jimmy page has tones of sweet tones. but the one i'm particularly inclined and like the most would be something like: heartbreaker, and since i've been loving you.

so, i've planned on the gear i will be acquiring in the near future.

i have a gibson les paul studio, with a bigsby tremolo coming very soon. other than that, everything is stock. (except a sweet zoso sticker on the pickguard)

pickups i intend to swap them out with custom ordered pickups from WB custom pickups. it will be in the PAF camp and the bridge pickup t-top-ish. pickups will be wired to be out of phase with a push pull pot. is series wiring and coil tap necessary?

so guitars settled, as for the amp. a marshall vintage modern 2466CC, the 50 watt combo.

my pedalboard would be a

- crybaby 535 thats modded to have extra treble on tap
- analogman beano boost
- menatone king of the britains

would this get me close to jimmy page's tone? is there anything i should add or do? like a cello bow?


Guitar and pickups are fine, you actually might want to call Seymour Duncan's custom shop and see if they can't wind you their Page spec humbucker. I don't know what it sounds like really, as I think Page got it post-Zeppelin. But otherwise, t-top bridge should work fine. I wouldn't bother with the series/parallel stuff or coil splitting really, and I'd instead spend the money on some high quality caps and pots and wire the guitar '50s style. I'd keep the phase switching though whether or not Page really ever used it that much is kind of debatable.

As for the amp, I don't really recommend the VM for Page tones. Trying to nail Page's tone is really very difficult, no one really seems to know the exact specs of his Marshalls at any given time. There was a shot of it from the 80s (?) I think, where it had a master volume installed, a 12ax7 driven effects loop, and KT88s. To my ears it sounds like it was probably stock until '72, in '73 something changed that have him a thinner, more edgy and trebley tone. If he didn't go to KT88s by then he almost certainly did by 1975, the Earls Court recordings especially, you can really hear another pretty big change in tone, cleaner, fuller, bigger low end (but not bassy by any means). Idk what he uses these days, I know at the reunion gig he used Orange 120s, Marshall 45/100 heads (KT66s), and the Petersburg heads he used during the Page/Plant tours. He had some sort of switching system set up, though I heard all sorts of things about how he used the Marshall preamps fed into the Oranges and all sorts of crazy things. No one really knows but the man himself and his techs.

I'd go for a 1987 personally over the VM, run them through Celestion G12H30s. The 1987 is grittier than a superlead but I think it'll get a bit closer than the VM.
Last edited by al112987 at Jan 5, 2009,
#8
i'd take the 1987x anyday. but i just cannot afford to put a halfstack at home. i have neighbours very close by. actually i chose the VM because i'm very heavily influenced by ritchie blackmore and angus young.

i obviously know its impossible to nail his tone perfectly. since its so difficult to manipulate even his equipment. i would be happy just to sound close to it
#9
Understandable, here is a suggestion as well...

I've actually had pretty good luck getting a pretty similar tone to Page's HTWWW tone with my WCRs. I wasn't really expecting it as Jim Wagner usually recommends his Darkburst set for Page-ish tones, but the Fillmores that are in my guitar do it quite well (I actually bought them to get those Duane Allman live tones), especially since my les paul is already a slight bit bright. They're wound pretty hot and have a vocal midrange and that slightly nasal tone and honk in the high mids, along with a real bite but without that cutting edginess or sparkling top end that you hear on say... TSRTS. I'd take a look at his pickups as well. The set he actually recommends for Page type tones may do it even better. I talk up WCR a lot these days, but if you're dead set on WBs, they're fine as well.

Funny thing is that they're designed to nail the Duane Allman Fillmore East tone (and I mean, they do that sound quite well if I'm using the middle position or rolling the tone off slightly on the bridge), but honestly the more I play the guitar, the more the lead tones are reminding me of "Since I've Been Loving You" from HTWWW, especially that intro lead. They're just real creamy and smooth sounding. Even stranger is that I get these tones on my AVT50 no problem but have a much harder time dialing them in on my JTM45.
Last edited by al112987 at Jan 5, 2009,
#10
Very true, in the early day Jimmy used a Tele with a couple of different small amps. On the first Zep tours Jimmy used the tele and a wall of vox ac 30`s. But he felt like that rig didnt cut thru the stage volume. So he switched to the marshalls and the les paul. If you want the wiring set Mr. Page used you can purchase the wiring kit from Torres Engineering
#11
hey u mentions swapping out the pots and wiring them 50s style. sorry if i sound noobish but i've nvr really thought abt this; whats the difference between modern style wiring and 50s style wiring

and why did u recommend i do that?
#12
That pic of his Marshall was from sometime in 2007, chances of it being a Zep-era head are slim though, though I have heard stories of master volumes being on his Zep-era Marshalls for some time now. That picture only makes me wonder more. I'll repost the pic in a moment, I need to fix some of the pics in my CROTM too.

Quote by DudeLove
hmmm.. i thought page used out of phase for the solo of the ocean?

i already own the wah. could u tell me when jimmy page used the marshall plexi? yeah i've read quite alot of that info u just told me from the crotm thread u did.


Live or in the studio? Live he went back and forth with a Super Lead between March and June '69. The next time a Marshall shows up on stage was March '71 and Marshalls spring up through '71 a long side his Hiwatts. February 1972 was permanent switch to Marshalls live. As far as studio use goes, it's hard to say. The only time he mentions using a Marshall in the studio was for the Heartbreaker solo and Bring It On Home.

I know The Ocean solo sounds out of phase, but that type of sound can be achieved a number of ways not just with out of phase pickups. The only guitar of his that had out of phase abilities during Led Zeppelin was the Telecaster. Granted The Ocean could have been the Tele though. His #1 Les Paul didn't get a push/pull for phase switching until the late 80's, and the middle position of his #1 was always in phase during Led Zeppelin. You can get a similar tone with a Les Paul wired 50's style on the bridge pickup with the tone control almost all the way done.

Very true, in the early day Jimmy used a Tele with a couple of different small amps. On the first Zep tours Jimmy used the tele and a wall of vox ac 30`s. But he felt like that rig didnt cut thru the stage volume. So he switched to the marshalls and the les paul. If you want the wiring set Mr. Page used you can purchase the wiring kit from Torres Engineering


Read the link in the 2nd reply. There's no wall of AC30s on the early tours. Though you're right about him not using them live because he felt they didn't get over Bonham properly.
Last edited by Whole Lotta Led at Jan 5, 2009,
#13
hey al112987, could u also clarify why a VM wouldnt be recommendable? thanks alot dude.
#14
http://www.wcrguitar.com/Images/install%20page/50s%20Style%20&%20Modern%20w.JPG

That is the diagram I got with my WCRs, though I already had mine wired '50s style beforehand.

Why Gibson uses modern wiring I honestly have no clue, but the biggest and most noticeable effect is that when you roll off the volume to clean up your tone with modern style wiring, it kills any high end clarity you had, it's almost like rolling off the tone knob a few notches along with the volume knob. The '50s style wiring retains the highs when you turn down the volume knob so you actually get... usable cleans. I mean, for someone who uses a single channel amp, it's really important. Also, my pickups do a good job of retaining clarity at lower volume settings as well, some humbuckers have the tendency to get a little muddy and mushy. I do a bit of a tone dynamics test with my JTM45 (the amp really screams Clapton moreso than Page, the lead tones are a little TOO fat sometimes) in one of my youtube clips, you might want to take a look at that. I'm using the les paul w/ the 50s style wiring straight into the amp and fiddle with a bunch of different volume and pickup settings. All clean tones were done using the neck pickup and it all cleans up quite nicely.
Last edited by al112987 at Jan 5, 2009,
#15
Here's that Marshall pic. KT88s, master volume, effects loop and an added preamp tube more than likely for the loop. Who knows what else is going on inside. The reasoning for it not being a Zeppelin head is the voltage selector on the back, that would point to it being a European Marshall with only 2 switches on the front. Page's Marshalls during Zeppelin were US Export Marshalls with 3 switches on the front and no voltage selector on the back. Considering how butchered the amp looks who knows though. Supposedly roadies from back in '73 remember him having a master volume on the back. Honestly I wouldn't have a hard time believing a master volume being on there in '73.

#16
You should also try the Orange Rocker. It's a great amp.
Fender MIA Stratocaster (with SD Twang Banger)
Epiphone Les Paul Special II
Johnson Acoustic
Palmer FAB5
#17
Quote by al112987

Why Gibson uses modern wiring I honestly have no clue, but the biggest and most noticeable effect is that when you roll off the volume to clean up your tone with modern style wiring, it kills any high end clarity you had, it's almost like rolling off the tone knob a few notches along with the volume knob. The '50s style wiring retains the highs when you turn down the volume knob so you actually get... usable cleans.

hmm.. i thought installing treble bleed will solve this problem?
#18
Quote by DudeLove
hmm.. i thought installing treble bleed will solve this problem?


It does, but in my opinion the 50's wiring sounds more natural. I was never able to find a cap value that sounded just right with the treble bleed mod, talking about the treble bleed cap.
#19
I use a modified 50's wiring and a treble bleed cap, 100 and 120 pF. I have a wiring diagram drawn up if you like.

And I think you'd want a Tonebender clone more than that king of the britons.
#20
A Tonebender only covers a few Zeppelin things to be honest; How Many More Times, You Shook Me and Dazed and Confused and live from '68 to early June '69. If you want that sound fine, but you aren't going to get much else from it if you want to get something similar to his other tones.
#21
btw u're quite sure jimmy page didnt use a rangemaster? cos i've found a rangemaster clone quite useful for stuff like the lemon song
#22
I know the clip you're talking about, while it's somewhat close sounding it doesn't mean he used one. The Lemon Song along with a lot of other stuff on II was done with a Vox UL4120.
Last edited by Whole Lotta Led at Jan 5, 2009,
#23
WLL is there any clear proof that Page didn't have any sort of mods on his guitars wiring during the 70s? I know most of the stuff was installed in the 80s with all the fancy switching, yet I seriously just keep hearing the out of phase sound all over TSRTS along with a more normal middle position tone. Especially on Whole Lotta Love where he is riding that middle position all throughout the "Boogie Mama" section. I read a thread on the Seymour Duncan thread that said he might have had a single push pull pot for simultaneously putting pickups out of phase and in series.
#24
Quote by al112987
WLL is there any clear proof that Page didn't have any sort of mods on his guitars wiring during the 70s? I know most of the stuff was installed in the 80s with all the fancy switching, yet I seriously just keep hearing the out of phase sound all over TSRTS along with a more normal middle position tone. Especially on Whole Lotta Love where he is riding that middle position all throughout the "Boogie Mama" section. I read a thread on the Seymour Duncan thread that said he might have had a single push pull pot for simultaneously putting pickups out of phase and in series.


For me there is clear proof... I don't know if it will be for others though

-I and others have watched every second of TSRTS footage countless times, he only turns the knobs and a majority of the time it's the volumes knobs. The push/pull action is quite noticeable, plenty of videos from the 90's and recently showing him using it. I realize the SRTS video footage doesn't always match up with the audio but if he's using it as much as people think then there should be at least a few instances where you can see him use it. I've also been through all of the Earls Court footage, both official release and bootleg stuff and I've watch every moment of Knebworth too, same conclusion no pushing or pulling.

-When he talks about having the push/pull installed on #1 for phase switching, he explained how phase switching was the only option he used on his #2 which is why he only chose to have that option installed on #1. Wiring mods on #2 were done around 1980. Given the way he explained the push/pull being installed on #1 it's pretty clear it was done after #2.

-In a 1982 Guitar Heroes article his guitars were handled and looked over by the interviewer and Page's tech at the time Tim Martin. There's only talk about push/pulls and switches on #2. The typical stuff is talked about on #1, the gold grovers, shaved neck, and the chrome bridge pickup cover which was the T-Top. No mention of any push/pulls or other switching.

-There was a 1993 Guitar World Article when he was working with David Coverdale and Page was talking about getting the right tone for the song "Take Me For A Little While". Page started talking about getting his #2 out for the track because of the phase switching option. Now if his #1 had phase switching abilities why wouldn't he just use that then?

He was always open during Led Zeppelin about his Telecaster being out of phase and his Black Beauty getting out of phase-ish tones (that was because of the proximity of the bridge and middle pickup, it was still technically in phase). For me I would think he would of been just as open about his #1 if he had out of phase abilities on it.

The middle position on his Les Paul is the key (well part of the key need the right amp) to those TSRTS tones and any Les Paul won't have it either. His neck PAF was quite bright. That bridge and middle position quack really doesn't become noticeable until the T-Top change and becomes more noticeable as he cleaned up his sound. T-Tops were notourious for having a subtle quack and honk to them.
Last edited by Whole Lotta Led at Jan 6, 2009,
#25
Sorry for the double post, everytime I edit my previous post my computer freezes. Anyway the Coverdale/Page song was Take Me For A Little While. I don't have the exact quote right now but Page explained in that guitar world interview he pulled out #2 to get an out of phase tone. Given the Coverdale/Page project was the early 90's this would suggest that #1 wasn't modded until the 90's then, not the 80's like I had thought.

The earliest video I have of Page switching OOP on #1 was from Glastonbury in '95 during the Page/Plant tours. In this video when he's in the middle position up until 2:36 the guitar is out of phase, then at 2:37 he hits the push/pull and it goes back in phase then he switches back to the bridge pickup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aixZ3wqOis
#26
jimmy page frequently uses the middle position on the pickup selector? okay i didnt know that. because i almost nvr ever use the middle position when i play.

are there any other examples when he does that?
#27
damn i realise i sound super noobish with that question. nvm, i've learnt alot from this thread.
#28
I see... it's just I'm so at a loss as to how to get Page's middle position tone. Closest I've been is by pretty much rolling the neck volume down to 2 or 3 so I'm basically just getting the bridge tone but a little fatter but it's still not the same bright and almost thin tone Page sometimes got.

Idk, I can nail his HTWWW tones with the humbuckers currently in my guitar, like it's amazing actually how similar they sound. The first thing I thought when I plugged the guitar in for the first time was "The Ocean" from HTWWW (whereas I was expecting to hear "Whipping Post" from "Live At Fillmore East"). But it's just that TSRTS tone that seems impossible for me to get with a stock les paul.

I've seen the Earls Court (both nights), Seattle and Knebworth footage and I agree, I don't ever see him diddling with any push/pulls but it's that middle position tone from TSRTS that just gets me every time, and what throws me off even more is that he gets that quacky, nasal kind of sound along with your typical middle position les paul tones. And it's only on the Earl's Court stuff and TSRTS stuff that I hear it, TSRTS stuff moreso than Earls Court (there it really just sounds like he turned the treble all the way up on everything...) I have a few bootlegs from the '75 USA tour, but never took notice.

DudeLove:
If you're not using the middle position of your les paul, it really opens up a lot of tonal options, especially if your guitar is wired with the '50s style setup. Generally if you're running both pickups with the volumes on 10 it's a bit useless as it gets a little muddy, but what I generally do is keep the bridge on 10 and roll the neck off to 3 or so. And when I want more of the neck pickup, just add more bit by bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRwMLquLMNU

You can see Page riding the middle position a fair bit in that video. I think for most of the song actually, only exception being the intro where it looks like he is on the neck and parts of the solo where he is on the bridge.
Last edited by al112987 at Jan 7, 2009,
#29
Sick Again from Earls Court is a good example of his middle position too especially when he starts soloing, he pretty much sticks to the middle position. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3idzfhUtrr4&feature=related

His middle tone is definitely a little different sounding than a lot of Les Pauls I've played. You really need the right pickups to do it. The neck needs to be quite bright and the bridge needs to be fairly low in output, of course bright too. Definitely in phase though, out of phase sounds too quacky and nasally to me like this.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVR3EoT8RX8
#30
He never really has that kind of sound on HTWWW though, which is weird, idk, maybe whatever change in setup he had between '72 and '73 really emphasized treble lot more. It just doesn't have that grind that his '73 tone has, instead it's just fat and creamy sounding with a slight bit of high end roll off. Very pleasing on the ears imo... I really wonder how he ran his plexis...
Last edited by al112987 at Jan 7, 2009,
#31
yeah i do realise the neck position needs to be very bright. what do u guys recommend? wcr again?

hey al112987, u mentioned using higher quality pots and capacitors for the guitar. what pots and caps do u recommend? i'll be sending my guitar to be rewired 50s style probably on friday. maybe i could tell the guitar tech my specifications.
#32
BTW, the Over the Hills and Far Away video from Earls Court is his #2.

He never really has that kind of sound on HTWWW though, which is weird, idk, maybe whatever change in setup he had between '72 and '73 really emphasized treble lot more. It just doesn't have that grind that his '73 tone has, instead it's just fat and creamy sounding with a slight bit of high end roll off. Very pleasing on the ears imo... I really wonder how he ran his plexis...


Could just be the recording... I really don't even hear that big of change in his tone in '72 and '73 from the audience recordings. The '73 soundboards sound darastically different though, his tone was borderline buzzy in my opinion on them.
#34
Quote by DudeLove
yeah i do realise the neck position needs to be very bright. what do u guys recommend? wcr again?

hey al112987, u mentioned using higher quality pots and capacitors for the guitar. what pots and caps do u recommend? i'll be sending my guitar to be rewired 50s style probably on friday. maybe i could tell the guitar tech my specifications.


I'd suggest the RS guitarworks kit for pots and caps. But I'd rewire your guitar first and see if that makes a big enough difference or not to your ears, and I suggest you do it yourself, no point in paying a tech to do something as simple as making only a few solder connections.

As for the neck pickup, I have a WCR Fillmore in my neck, I have doubts that it's really anything similar to Page's pickup as it's more of a hotwound PAF. The DCR of mine reads at 10.5k/13.3k so it's kind of a hot pickup. (well... I wouldn't really say hot, the specs are a little misleading, it definitely pushes the front end of your amp, but cleans up well and really has a LOT of clarity) The neck pickup is definitely a bit brighter and clearer than most PAF style neck pickups I've played but like I said, it pushes the front end of your amp a little more than your typical PAF (though I can't speak on Page's at all, I've heard of PAFs being anywhere from under 7k to over 10k)

Quote by tenaciousjp
how about getting YOUR tone..not jimmy's


If you hear a tone that sounds good to you, I don't see what is wrong with trying to replicate it. What, is it unoriginal or something? If you walked into a guitar store and plugged into an amp that someone had already previously set an EQ, and the tone was amazing, is it inherently unoriginal to go back home and EQ your amp the same way? Or if you heard someone play an amp that sounded amazing, is it inherently unoriginal to want that amp? I don't get it, would you be saying this if someone said "I was at the bar last night and there was this guitarist's rig just killed, can anyone tell me what kind of amp this was?" would you be saying... "how about getting YOUR tone... not his"?
#35
Page's neck PAF measures 8.1k, it was measured when Gibson replicated his #1 back in '03. Impossible to say what magnet type though which will obviously play a big role. We'll never know what his bridge PAF measured as that's long gone. The T-Top was likely around the 7.5k-7.9k range, T-Tops were wound much more consistently than PAFs and they all used Alnico 5 magnets unlike the mix of magnets PAFs used.
#36
do you know anything about the custom SD that Page has had in his guitar? If it's based off any of Page's older pickups or anything? I know that MJ over at Seymour Duncan winds it on request.
#37
I'm not so sure Page's pickup is the same as the pickup the Custom Shop winds when you ask for the Jimmy Page pickups. The specs for the SD Page pickups are 8.8k with an Alnico 5 for the bridge with an uneven wind, and for the neck 8.15k with an Alnico 5 with an uneven wind as well. I've seen one guys set from last year and his has an Alnico 2 in the neck instead of 5 though. Most people describe them just as a hotter '59. From what I've gathered they were based on the pickups he had put into his red Les Paul sometimes in the early 80's and not something associated with either of his Bursts. I don't have any technical specs on the actual bridge pickup in his #1 now though, but it is supposed to be a Seymour Duncan of some sort. He could easily have the same pickup in the bridge. I find it interesting SD doesn't really advertise them though.
#38
Yeah, it doesn't really seem like any of those "Page" pickups out there are really that similar to the pickups that Page had in his bursts, the two off the top of my head are the BKP Black Dogs and Shed Zeppelins, which both seem like overwound PAFs though I don't know quite as much about the Sheds. I'm interested in trying a set, though I don't have enough les pauls...
#40
Shed pickups makes them, they're a really small Wales based custom handwind business. I heard about them on either MLP or LPF, forgot which.

http://www.shedpickups.com/
Last edited by al112987 at Jan 7, 2009,
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