#1
Sorry to bore you all again, but I've got this question.

I'm playing these 3 chords: C7, G9, F7 (All major).

I thought that for a lead part, I'd have to go G Lydian, but I doesn't sound "right", some I'm not sure. I don't think I'm understood completely how to apply modes and chords.

So what would scale / mode would you use over it?
Last edited by Deagle-Eyes at Jan 6, 2009,
#2
I'm not sure how you play it (1 measure C7, 1 measure G9 and 2 measures F7?), but I'd use C ionian (or simply C major), so it would be the same tones as F lydian, just another tonal center. Of course, you'd have to look out for that Eb in the F7 (which gives it a nice groove).

At least just playing the chord progression like that I'd say it resolves to C.

Also, I'm maybe not the most experienced in theory, just thought I'd share my view as you haven't gotten any replies yet.


EDIT: hmm, did it really say G lydian in the OP? If so, my bad.
Last edited by descara at Jan 6, 2009,
#4
modes usually don't work too well over chord progressions... they contain altered notes that don't always comply with chord structures. Modal music is usually played over one chord or maybe two at the most.

also, and someone correct me if I missed a note, you have the following notes in play:

C7: C E G B
G9: G B D A
F7: F A C G

all in all, you've got C D E F G A B, and your chord progressions goes C-G-F-C. that's a classic I-V-IV-I progression in C major, just with 7ths and 9ths on the chords. You could quite easily play a C major scale over that whole thing and it would sound perfect.

The major-sounding modes, of which lydian is one, could sound good. But remember that C Lydian will have an F#, and so it won't sound too good to play that particular note over the F. You can still play in lydian, just watch how and where you use the altered note.
#6
Since you asked - it's a F7, so that's an Eb in there. Without the 7th though as you say it's fully a C major progression (or however to express that).

Good advice/descriptivyness though!
#7
That progression is not diatonic to anything. I7-V7-IV7 reeks of blues, and the standard approach is to just play the C minor pentatonic over everything.

You could quite easily play a C major scale over that whole thing and it would sound perfect.


It would sound dissonant as hell. That may very well be what he's after, but he should be aware of it.

The major-sounding modes, of which lydian is one, could sound good. But remember that C Lydian will have an F#, and so it won't sound too good to play that particular note over the F. You can still play in lydian, just watch how and where you use the altered note.


Absolutely nothing in that progression suggests lydian. Nothing. There's a natural fourth and a minor seventh. You couldn't get more "un-lydian" if you tried.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Last edited by Archeo Avis at Jan 6, 2009,
#8
^ pretty much what he said. Or just play the minor pentatonic of the current root note. (C minor over, G minor over G etc.).
#9
So play in C major and borrow the Eb from the chromatic scale as a passing tone for extra flavour over the F7.
Practice. Play. Sleep. Repeat.

Quote by pearlJam_31490
i take it next your going to tell me that Cb is a note too!
#10
Quote by Archeo Avis
That progression is not diatonic to anything. I7-V7-IV7 reeks of blues, and the standard approach is to just play the C minor pentatonic over everything.


It would sound dissonant as hell. That may very well be what he's after, but he should be aware of it.


Absolutely nothing in that progression suggests lydian. Nothing. There's a natural fourth and a minor seventh. You couldn't get more "un-lydian" if you tried.


Well man, go try it yourself, cause I actually think their advice was pretty nice.

C major scale is certainly not what I'm looking for. G Lydian and, to a major extent, C lydian sound much better imo. And even that F# sounds ok to me while in the F bar.
#11
^ well if it sounds good to you, then do it. But there's is nothing G lydian about it, at all... the progression doesn't even resolve to G
#12
Quote by Deagle-Eyes
Well man, go try it yourself, cause I actually think their advice was pretty nice.

C major scale is certainly not what I'm looking for. G Lydian and, to a major extent, C lydian sound much better imo. And even that F# sounds ok to me while in the F bar.


You can play whatever you want, but that doesn't make it lydian.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#13
dang, i did miss a note... forgot to count the last note of the F... anyways, i would say a mode is not the best answer here... it might be a good idea to try the less-is-more approach, and go with major pentatonic.

and remember that you should not cage yourself in with one scale. write the music you want to hear. if you use a major scale or a mode or something as your guide, it's still okay to go outside the scale if it sounds good to you. the music police won't come knocking on your door.
#14
your chords are very similar to those used in 12 bar blues so just use C pentatonic minor over it all.
Quote by zac362
not many ppl have heard of the lochrian mode, mainly cos its only really usefull for mindless shredding
#15
Quote by frigginjerk
dang, i did miss a note... forgot to count the last note of the F... anyways, i would say a mode is not the best answer here... it might be a good idea to try the less-is-more approach, and go with major pentatonic.

and remember that you should not cage yourself in with one scale. write the music you want to hear. if you use a major scale or a mode or something as your guide, it's still okay to go outside the scale if it sounds good to you. the music police won't come knocking on your door.


Totally agree Thanks
#16
With a tonal center of C, you are playing I7, IV7, and V7 (in whatever order you're playing them). As mentioned, that's basically your standard issue blues progression. Being that you have all of the notes in the C major scale and also a b3 and b7 (Eb and Bb), you can use major pentatonic or minor pentatonic depending on what chord you're on. C major pent will work over the C7 and G9 chords (no b7 in major pentatonic) but you'll have to use the b3 of the minor pentatonic over the F7 as the E will clash with the Eb in the chord unless you can tastefully make it work.

Many people in this situation (I7, IV7, V7 blues progressions) will just play minor pentatonic throughout. Give it a shot. It's one of those strange music examples where although it doesn't work on paper, our western ears have kind of been trained for it and it just seems to work. Granted, you probably won't want to hang on the b3 for a long time over the C7 chord, but playing through the note as a passing tone works just fine. Give it a shot and you'll see what I'm saying. You could also try using major pentatonic over the entire thing just to see how that sounds. You might discover some "clashing" tones that sound good to you, just like using the minor over all three chords.
#17
Quote by frigginjerk
modes usually don't work too well over chord progressions... they contain altered notes that don't always comply with chord structures. Modal music is usually played over one chord or maybe two at the most.

also, and someone correct me if I missed a note, you have the following notes in play:

C7: C E G B
G9: G B D A
F7: F A C G

all in all, you've got C D E F G A B, and your chord progressions goes C-G-F-C. that's a classic I-V-IV-I progression in C major, just with 7ths and 9ths on the chords. You could quite easily play a C major scale over that whole thing and it would sound perfect.

The major-sounding modes, of which lydian is one, could sound good. But remember that C Lydian will have an F#, and so it won't sound too good to play that particular note over the F. You can still play in lydian, just watch how and where you use the altered note.


You are SO wrong:

C7: C E G Bb
G9: G B (D) F A
F7: F A C Eb

Please reread lessons about scales and chord construction.
C minor pentatonic over it will sound fine, bluesy.

And lydian!? If I really must choose modes then - C mixolydian over C7, G mixolydian over G9 and F mixolydian over F7.
Quote by Johnljones7443
my neew year reslosutions are not too drikn as much lol.

happy new yeeae guyas.
#18
Quote by DarTHie
You are SO wrong:

C7: C E G Bb
G9: G B (D) F A
F7: F A C Eb

Please reread lessons about scales and chord construction.
C minor pentatonic over it will sound fine, bluesy.

And lydian!? If I really must choose modes then - C mixolydian over C7, G mixolydian over G9 and F mixolydian over F7.


this was already pointed out earlier in the thread... I missed the Bb's. I don't usually include the seventh in a 9 chord, myself. anyways, i was looking at wrong data when i suggested lydian.

because someone already pointed this out to me (and without being a wang about it), i've also already established that a mode really isn't the best way to go here anyways, especially if you have to switch scales every chord. please reread the thread, then post another comment to call me a dickhead, and try to drag this thread out another 10 posts, because that's what we all want.
Last edited by frigginjerk at Jan 7, 2009,
#20
Quote by one vision
If you want a C Lydian type of thing, try something like CMaj7 - DMaj.

Of course, keep in mind, modes don't apply to all music, and no matter how hard you try, you might still end up playing tonally as opposed to modally.


word. that's why an ambiguous approach to modes is sometimes best. In terms of overall tonality, someone might be playing a minor scale or a major scale with an altered degree, and they might be thinking of the scale pattern as a modal thing... but the overall music might just sound like a minor scale with an accidental.

i often think of modes as a good way to choose which accidentals might sound best in some areas of a progression, rather than saying "i need a progression that i can play dorian over" or something like that.
#21
Quote by frigginjerk


i often think of modes as a good way to choose which accidentals might sound best in some areas of a progression, rather than saying "i need a progression that i can play dorian over" or something like that.

Exactly. When I'm playing blues, I mix Pentatonic, Blues, Mixolydian, Major, Dorian scales etc. Doesn't really make it modal, but yeah.

Modes are one of those theoretical devices with a million loopholes and exceptions.
#22
You could try out using the respective mixolydian mode for each chord.


I much prefer the minor pentatonic and be done with option.
#24
Quote by frigginjerk
this was already pointed out earlier in the thread... I missed the Bb's. I don't usually include the seventh in a 9 chord, myself. anyways, i was looking at wrong data when i suggested lydian.

because someone already pointed this out to me (and without being a wang about it), i've also already established that a mode really isn't the best way to go here anyways, especially if you have to switch scales every chord. please reread the thread, then post another comment to call me a dickhead, and try to drag this thread out another 10 posts, because that's what we all want.


I had no intention to argue with you.

But if you don't include the seventh, it's an add9 chord.
Quote by Johnljones7443
my neew year reslosutions are not too drikn as much lol.

happy new yeeae guyas.
#25
Quote by one vision
^Yeah lol. Minor pentatonic works over pretty much anything



I know! It's just so at hand. It's our curse.
#29
Pentatonics ftw..

Although I do dislike it when people start playing redundant pentatonic cliche's. Other than that, pentatonics open up a world of endless possibilities. Take a look at how Eric Johnson incorporates pentatonics in his playing, it's pretty sick (along with his awesome 2nps runs )
#30
Quote by one vision
Exactly. When I'm playing blues, I mix Pentatonic, Blues, Mixolydian, Major, Dorian scales etc. Doesn't really make it modal, but yeah.

Modes are one of those theoretical devices with a million loopholes and exceptions.


Exactly.

Modal vamps are imo excellent devices to get to develop ur ear for modal sounds. Just like playing around with blues or pentatonic makes u aware of those sounds, although they seem more normal, because they are more popular used.

I'm currently on a massive "mode journey".

I'm so excited in the ways I can combine those sounds with basslines at the moment.

For example take a 2 - 5 - 1 progression in C, and you end up with playing C Major, but if you only take the bass notes, you can do so much more.

It's by making the harmony weaker like this you actually potentially make the music richer, because you can play more note choices without clashing on harmony or harmony "taking over" (like strong cadenzas) where even if you try to play modally, it's impossible because the cadence dominates the whole thing aurally speaking.

Take Satriani for example;
I never understood how he got so much different sounds/emotion over relatively simple progressions. I always said "he's a guitargod".

Indeed he's a very good musician and 1 of my favourite, but the more I venture into modes the more I aurally (Suddenly) began to "hear" his note choices and note relationships in his songs.

It would explain why he talks so much about modes, and no theory (that i've read or seen so far) described this, and it's a thing where you really need to listen and play around with it.

I always liked counterpoint for this reason. Not the strict species 1, but the concept of no chords. Chords are very beautiful, but sometimes the melodies leave more room for perhaps imagination or texture.

/rant

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 7, 2009,
#32
@darren

The more you take from background, the more you can add to the melody. Something like that?
Quote by Johnljones7443
my neew year reslosutions are not too drikn as much lol.

happy new yeeae guyas.
#33
Quote by DarTHie
@darren

The more you take from background, the more you can add to the melody. Something like that?


Yes.

For instance If I make a picture with 1 beautiful (naked) girl and 7 other girls who are pretty (but with clothes) but not as pretty as that 1.

Now let's say the beautiful(naked) girl is the cadence and the others are just like bass lines or harmonically less strong chords/progressions.

If you take the beautiful(naked) girl out of the picture, you will look at the other girls, and maybe see beauty you "hadn't noticed" yet, because the beautiful(naked) girl took all ur focus.

Of course the beautiful naked girl is a beauty, but there's more beauty then that, if you look (listen in music) deeper. Instead of sticking with conventions (Z0mg naked girl hawt) and see the rest as "less important" (or in music the rest as purely less strong).

Bit weird example, but couldn't think of a better 1 at the moment.

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Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 7, 2009,
#34
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Yes.

For instance If I make a picture with 1 beautiful (naked) girl and 7 other girls who are pretty (but with clothes) but not as pretty as that 1.

Now let's say the beautiful(naked) girl is the cadence and the others are just like bass lines or harmonically less strong chords/progressions.

If you take the beautiful(naked) girl out of the picture, you will look at the other girls, and maybe see beauty you "hadn't noticed" yet, because the beautiful(naked) girl took all ur focus.

Of course the beautiful naked girl is a beauty, but there's more beauty then that, if you look (listen in music) deeper. Instead of sticking with conventions (Z0mg naked girl hawt)

Bit weird example, but couldn't think of a better 1 at the moment.


*thskn of teh naked grl and drools



Most useful thing I learned from learning modes is to think about chords in the background. And to break away from staying in one scale.
Quote by Johnljones7443
my neew year reslosutions are not too drikn as much lol.

happy new yeeae guyas.
#36
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Yes.

For instance If I make a picture with 1 beautiful (naked) girl and 7 other girls who are pretty (but with clothes) but not as pretty as that 1.

Now let's say the beautiful(naked) girl is the cadence and the others are just like bass lines or harmonically less strong chords/progressions.

If you take the beautiful(naked) girl out of the picture, you will look at the other girls, and maybe see beauty you "hadn't noticed" yet, because the beautiful(naked) girl took all ur focus.

Of course the beautiful naked girl is a beauty, but there's more beauty then that, if you look (listen in music) deeper. Instead of sticking with conventions (Z0mg naked girl hawt) and see the rest as "less important" (or in music the rest as purely less strong).

Bit weird example, but couldn't think of a better 1 at the moment.




I'd hate to ask what you were doing while typing that post, if that's the first example that came to mind
Last edited by one vision at Jan 7, 2009,
#37
Quote by DarTHie
@darren

The more you take from background, the more you can add to the melody. Something like that?
You should have a "main melody" or two (sometimes 3), but you shouldn't dial back the rest of your song. You shouldn't need to if you know what you're doing. Take a look at some late romantic songs, some of them have 8 independent voices.


Quote by Darren
I always liked counterpoint for this reason. Not the strict species 1, but the concept of no chords. Chords are very beautiful, but sometimes the melodies leave more room for perhaps imagination or texture.
Not how it works.

Even when you're writing a single lined melody (in western music) each measure (or each few notes if you're doing free harmonization) will have an implied harmony, meaning you use chord tones of the implied harmony on the stressed beats. It's a little bit more complicated than that, but you get the jist. Western music past the 1600's is very much chordal based, whether it's contrapuctual or not.

Don't think of these "strict" contrapuctual laws as limitations, more like loose suggestions you can bend and manipulate and (very, very rarely) completely break. There are even times when you can even use parrallel fifths and still follow contrapuctual "law".


I feel really sorry for the not as beautifull girls
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[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
#38
Quote by DarTHie
I had no intention to argue with you.

But if you don't include the seventh, it's an add9 chord.


fair nuff. friends again. people have just been quick to rip on me lately because they think my username means i'm looking to argue.
#39
Quote by demonofthenight
You should have a "main melody" or two (sometimes 3), but you shouldn't dial back the rest of your song. You shouldn't need to if you know what you're doing. Take a look at some late romantic songs, some of them have 8 independent voices.


Not how it works.

Even when you're writing a single lined melody (in western music) each measure (or each few notes if you're doing free harmonization) will have an implied harmony, meaning you use chord tones of the implied harmony on the stressed beats. It's a little bit more complicated than that, but you get the jist. Western music past the 1600's is very much chordal based, whether it's contrapuctual or not.

Don't think of these "strict" contrapuctual laws as limitations, more like loose suggestions you can bend and manipulate and (very, very rarely) completely break. There are even times when you can even use parrallel fifths and still follow contrapuctual "law".


I feel really sorry for the not as beautifull girls


LOl I don't know why that example came to mind, really

I just say that if you strip down the harmony a bit the rest gets more room. Of course this may sound obvious, but still people seem to forget it when writing, and strictly use chords.

Satriani is the greatest example. If you make diatonic chords with the bass line as root notes, the compositions will lose their taste and open-ess.

But ye forget it I can't describe it, you have to play around with it in music itself to understand I think

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 8, 2009,