Page 4 of 15
#121
Quote by SG Man Forever
Strictly speaking, yes, but perfect fifths can be used in a scale they don't belong in without changing the scale. That's why they're called perfect intervals. But, if you really want to be that anal about it, play it as a minor diad, and the problem is solved.

Edit: or just play it as a diminished fifth. I'm tired leeme alone



I know, but in this case you changed THE most important note of Phrygian (only scale in our music system which contains a perfect 5th and a b2 + Phrygian dominant (5th mode of the harmonic minor scale) and Dorian b2 (2nd mode of the melodic minor scale).

I'm genuinly sorry to bug you, it's just that I have to be strict in this or else i'm the one getting bashed. I Also have genuine love for phrygian, so I don't want it to be harmonically raped

Also if you make it diad the 4 - 5 - 1 cadence still occurs.


Once again my apologies

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 11, 2009,
#122
You guys need to learn first species counterpoint and voiceleading. Back in ye olde times, there was thousands of ways a composer could play a diatonic I-IV-V progression.
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#123
Quote by xxdarrenxx
I know, but in this case you changed THE most important note of Phrygian (only scale in our music system which contains a perfect 5th and a b2 + Phrygian dominant (5th mode of the harmonic minor scale) and Dorian b2 (2nd mode of the melodic minor scale).

I'm genuinly sorry to bug you, it's just that I have to be strict in this or else i'm the one getting bashed. I Also have genuine love for phrygian, so I don't want it to be harmonically raped

Also if you make it diad the 4 - 5 - 1 cadence still occurs.


Once again my apologies

It's cool, I got kind of defensive because I made a typo, and it's 5:30 in the morning in my country, and I really ought to be asleep right now, so I'm a little irritable.

Also, I love phrygian too, it's my favorite mode.
ALWAYS

WANNA BE WITH YOU,
MAKE BELIEV
E WITH YOU,
AND L
IVE IN HARMONY, HARMONY,



OH, LOOVE!
#124
I have recently been experimenting with open tunings. I have been using an open dmaj7 tuning. I was wondering if any of you have tried untraditional open tunings, and if you could share any of your ideas, or aproaches. I have this idea in my head of doing a modal piece with a open slide guitar doing the rhtyhm. It would need to be the right progression if i wanted to pull it off though. Is there a mode that could contain a progression composed of all maj7th chords?
Quote by Gabel
You are EXTREMELY WRONG! I have played it. I own an 18W and it would be an awful stereo amp, it's way too bright, breaks up too easily and so on. Secondly, why would a guitar store sell an hifi amp.
#125
Quote by ripple07
I have recently been experimenting with open tunings. I have been using an open dmaj7 tuning. I was wondering if any of you have tried untraditional open tunings, and if you could share any of your ideas, or aproaches. I have this idea in my head of doing a modal piece with a open slide guitar doing the rhtyhm. It would need to be the right progression if i wanted to pull it off though. Is there a mode that could contain a progression composed of all maj7th chords?


no, cause not all characteristic mode notes are part of maj7th chords.

You can however play Cmaj7#11 to imply lydian.

The only mode where u can (probably) do this is the ionian mode (major scale) FM7 - CM7.

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Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 11, 2009,
#126
Quote by ripple07
I have recently been experimenting with open tunings. I have been using an open dmaj7 tuning. I was wondering if any of you have tried untraditional open tunings, and if you could share any of your ideas, or aproaches. I have this idea in my head of doing a modal piece with a open slide guitar doing the rhtyhm. It would need to be the right progression if i wanted to pull it off though. Is there a mode that could contain a progression composed of all maj7th chords?

^Not really. Only two chords in each mode form a major 7. So, unless you want a two chord progression, not really.

Also, TBH, I wouldn't think it would sound very good anyway.
ALWAYS

WANNA BE WITH YOU,
MAKE BELIEV
E WITH YOU,
AND L
IVE IN HARMONY, HARMONY,



OH, LOOVE!
Last edited by SG Man Forever at Jan 11, 2009,
#127
Quote by xxdarrenxx
no, cause not all characteristic mode notes are part of maj7th chords.

You can however play Cmaj7#11 to imply lydian.

The only mode where u can (probably) do this is the ionian mode (major scale) FM7 - CM7

I see. What chord would be ideal for my idea than? If you do not mind me asking.
Quote by Gabel
You are EXTREMELY WRONG! I have played it. I own an 18W and it would be an awful stereo amp, it's way too bright, breaks up too easily and so on. Secondly, why would a guitar store sell an hifi amp.
#128
Quote by demonofthenight
You guys need to learn first species counterpoint and voiceleading. Back in ye olde times, there was thousands of ways a composer could play a diatonic I-IV-V progression.



I often have two melodies playing at once, especially if it's a piano piece. I've never actually gotten around to learning the 'rules' of counterpoint though... this will probably make me look like an ignorant asshole, but do you think that learning the rules genuinely helps your composition of contrapuntal melodies?
#129
Quote by ripple07
I see. What chord would be ideal for my idea than? If you do not mind me asking.


What SG said^^

There are only two Major 7th chords in a Diatonic mode of C Major.

CM7 - Dm7 - Em7 - FM7 - G7 - Amin7 - Dm7b5 are the only (purely) 7th chords in a mode of the major scale.

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#130
Quote by michal23
I often have two melodies playing at once, especially if it's a piano piece. I've never actually gotten around to learning the 'rules' of counterpoint though... this will probably make me look like an ignorant asshole, but do you think that learning the rules genuinely helps your composition of contrapuntal melodies?
Yes.

The whole point of counterpoint is that two individual melodies (as in, they sound completely different) can be played together consonantly (meaning they don't sound cluttered).

Some guys have two instruments playing the same thing but a fifth apart, this sounds fine but it would still sound the same if you only had one instrument. Some guys have two instruments playing completely different things without regards of what the other instruments playing and this might mean two completely individual melodies but it will sound cluttered and horrible (like those crappy "math-core" songs).

You could write two melodies and change them (or completely replace them) untill they sound right. This would be pretty arduous and time consuming though. You know the whole shakespeare and the monkeys analogy?

My rant here is that counterpoint has been forgotten in contemporary music. I've even heard (and read) some idiots say it's not usefull anymore because it's so old.
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#131
^ I know what you mean. I've just never really gotten round to learning it, when composing, I try to have two completely individual melodies, often the harmonies being a sixth, a third or a seventh, and just use my ear. However, like you said, I have to work on it for quite some time until it sounds right.
#132
^You got to learn a couple of ways of counterpoint. Every uni/college has a different way of teaching it. The main rules are no moving to harmonic fifths by direct or similar motion, no repeated harmonic perfect intervals, no dissonance on strong beats.
Some courses teach that you can do anything between two embelishments (see my sig).

I recommend you start here: www.gutenberg.org/files/16342/16342-h/16342-h.htm It's the simplest one out there imo.

BTW, sevenths are dissonant as all hell. Even tritones are more prefered than sevenths/ninths.
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#133
^ Thanks for the link!

+ Wow, I didn't know that about sevenths. There's nothing more awesome than a major seventh interval as a passing tone
#134
Quote by demonofthenight
Yes.

The whole point of counterpoint is that two individual melodies (as in, they sound completely different) can be played together consonantly (meaning they don't sound cluttered).

Some guys have two instruments playing the same thing but a fifth apart, this sounds fine but it would still sound the same if you only had one instrument. Some guys have two instruments playing completely different things without regards of what the other instruments playing and this might mean two completely individual melodies but it will sound cluttered and horrible (like those crappy "math-core" songs).

You could write two melodies and change them (or completely replace them) untill they sound right. This would be pretty arduous and time consuming though. You know the whole shakespeare and the monkeys analogy?

My rant here is that counterpoint has been forgotten in contemporary music. I've even heard (and read) some idiots say it's not usefull anymore because it's so old.


I don't think it's forgotten, so much as it is simply very hard to do. Writing counterpoint is very difficult.

Opeth used some counterpoint on their second album though.
ALWAYS

WANNA BE WITH YOU,
MAKE BELIEV
E WITH YOU,
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IVE IN HARMONY, HARMONY,



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#135
^Haha, depends on what you're good at. It sort of reminds me of algebra (which I'm relatively good at). A million rules, but once you get the hang of it it's so easy and you can get the result you're looking for with it.
Quote by michal23
^ Thanks for the link!

+ Wow, I didn't know that about sevenths. There's nothing more awesome than a major seventh interval as a passing tone
Yeah, how'd you get so far into his ebook? He talks about that in second species in both parts. I like this counterpoint ebook, it's not as strict as most of the other counterpoint books (and it's free!)

So yeah, I should stfu about counterpoint (my favourite subject atm) and crit some peices.
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#136
Quote by demonofthenight
Yeah, how'd you get so far into his ebook? He talks about that in second species in both parts. I like this counterpoint ebook, it's not as strict as most of the other counterpoint books (and it's free!)

So yeah, I should stfu about counterpoint (my favourite subject atm) and crit some peices.


I haven't read any of it quite yet, just bookmarked it. But it goes to show, I don't really know the rules, but just use my ear to see if it sounds good to me.
#137
Yup major 7th interval is super dissonant.

You must look further then "major 7 sounds nice " and look beyond the theory and to the actual soundwave analysis.


C - B is maj7th interval, but it's a b2 from B - C.

Theoretically different, but the sound waves are (exactly) the same(both half step apart from root). It's only nice as a CM7 chord, because you can see em as two stacked 3rds tied together with a perfect 5th (This is my theory why they sound nice as a whole)

root - Maj3rd is a maj3rd apart.
-above and below are same soundwave-
5th and M7 are as a Maj3rd apart.

Root to 5th = perfect and stable.

I call this "cancelling" each other out aurally.

MY theory = that maj7 chords always have been dissonant, but that through conventions, we have subconsciously learned to listen to them (the soundwaves of that chord) as I described above.

Of course this is just my theory, but it explained me a lot when I analysed music, and when 1 voicing of the same chord works so different and sounds aurally more stable then another voicing of exactly (theoretically) "the same chord".

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Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 11, 2009,
#138
One Visions Romance 3 in B minor

To begin with, I liked. The main motif was recognisable and I like the way it's phrased.

To be blunt, it was a little too consonant (except for the ninths thing which I'll explain). Too many chord tones and a few too many fifth/octave harmonic intervals, like fifth and octaves being approached from the same direction and moving off by a jump. Not really noticable, but if I was to be picky I'd say it sounds a bit stale.

In the second last bar of the first movement, there's some harmonic ninth intervals. It doesn't sound too nice, but sounds ok if one (preferably both) of the parts making the harmonic ninth interval is an embelishment on an unstressed beat.

Also, the first movement isn't really resolved. You jump to a note that's not the tonal center and it's just like, whoa what? When you want to resolve (at the end of movements) try to get as many voices moving stepwise to the tonal center as possible.


BTW, if your recording stuff is really bad, don't record it. Aquire FL studio (or reaper if you alread have some good vsti's), export it as a midi out of whatever program, open it with FL, apply some awesome vst's, render it and you have a nicely recorded song. Just remember to name what VST you were using.
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#139
I just had an idea from watching a Paul Gilbert vid. Would anyone appreciate another thread within the same sort of context, but the provisos being you have to throw in every technique you know? Eg, you could post one at a minute long, containing sweeping, hybrid, legato, tapping, hybrid bending, eco picking etc etc.

Let me know what you think, i don't think i've been here long enough to try and start a popular thread lol.#

EDIT: Without people showing off this would let people know where they are in terms of other people's playing, and would probably be quite cool. I know i'd be up for it if i can ever get this ****ty Vista soundcard to work properly.
Last edited by Ikonoklast at Jan 11, 2009,
#141
Well i just thought it'd be more specific on the amount of techniques people know.
As in rather than focusing on sonic elements or composition elements igt might be a chance to do a solo or piece encompassing everything you've learnt in your time as a guitarist!
Has this already been done!?
Last edited by Ikonoklast at Jan 11, 2009,
#143
Noo i don't mean analysing technique, i just meant pulling out your 'entire trick bag' as it were. Never mind! If i want i suppose i could always do it and post it in the thread you just linked!

EDIT: Also, if someone posts a vid of them just sweep picking and they're pretty good at it, there might not be as much critique as there could be, if said person is really bad at alternate picking and playing in general.
Last edited by Ikonoklast at Jan 11, 2009,
#145
Quote by michal23
^ Isn't that why you can upload songs to your profile though?


Can't you upload stuff on this thread straight onto your profile?
#146
^^

Good technique isn't yes or no.

A 1 string tapping line is obviously easier then a string skipped C7sus4 tapping arpeggio.

There's also stamina.

Everyone can play downstrokes, but can you play downstrokes at 200 bpm for 5 minutes straight without losing the beat or dynamics?

Not to mention how dynamically clean ur technique is.

Can you play 16th alternate picking lines with the accent on every 3rd note?

Can you play legato with 5+ fret strectches?

It's far to big of a topic to show in 1 song how good ur technique is.


Like FP said;
This thread is far better of as compositional thread, to learn from that.


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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 11, 2009,
#147
Anyone on here composed some orchestral stuff in guitar pro (or recorded, if you're that lucky)?
#148
I was bored so made a western saloon inspired interlude, dunno why I like to make those kind of short jingles.

Giddy-up!! *enter horse noise here*
Attachments:
lil ragtime piece.zip

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
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Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 11, 2009,
#149
Well... I don't know what you would consider orchestral. Are RPG themes considered orchestral? If so, check out my profile.

I've heard Sibelius is good for that kind of stuff though.
#150
Quote by xxdarrenxx
I was bored so made a western saloon inspired interlude, dunno why I like to make those kind of short jingles.

Giddy-up!! *enter horse noise here*


It's cute.
Quote by Johnljones7443
my neew year reslosutions are not too drikn as much lol.

happy new yeeae guyas.
#151
Quote by xxdarrenxx
I was bored so made a western saloon inspired interlude, dunno why I like to make those kind of short jingles.

Giddy-up!! *enter horse noise here*
Haha, great song.

Needs moar chromatism and syncopation

It could also do with a chromatic bassline.

I did like the chord progression and the way the melody seemed to fall up and down. Sounded like circus music to me though
Quote by RedDeath9

Well... I don't know what you would consider orchestral. Are RPG themes considered orchestral? If so, check out my profile.

I've heard Sibelius is good for that kind of stuff though.
My suggestion is this, write everything in guitarpro (or tuxguitar), export it as a midi, get FL-studio (the demo works great), apply some vst's

If you're doing orchestrial stuff I'd recommend you find out what soundfonts are and download some string and brass and woodwind soundfonts.
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#153
Quote by one vision
^I don't believe the mide file comes with the RSE though, does it?

That makes for blandness.

I've also thought about doing that, but with Cubase.
That's why you put it through FL and apply some VST's. Most VST's sound way better than RSE.
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#154
...

I have no clue WTF I did.

I remember humming the bassline on my way to class and recorded it. Then for kicks I just opened up Guitar Pro and transcribed the melody from the phone to my guitar to the program, then everything followed suit. I made it into an AABA form cause I was playing So What/Impressions with my band and I wanted to see if I could emulate what Miles did. The solo was a damn simple Harmonic Minor scale cause I started listening to Yngwie and the scale sounded so cool.

IDK, it still sounds cool as I play it. I can probably do some major touches. Any thoughts from your end guys?

EDIT: And if its bad, don't rag on me. It was my first composition.
Attachments:
Taxi!.zip
If you play guitar, please don't waste your time in The Pit, and please instead educate yourself in the Musician Talk forum, where you can be missing out on valuable info.
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I got meself a self-approving sig. Kick. Ass.
Last edited by SilverDark at Jan 11, 2009,
#155
Quote by demonofthenight
One Visions Romance 3 in B minor

To begin with, I liked. The main motif was recognisable and I like the way it's phrased.

To be blunt, it was a little too consonant (except for the ninths thing which I'll explain). Too many chord tones and a few too many fifth/octave harmonic intervals, like fifth and octaves being approached from the same direction and moving off by a jump. Not really noticable, but if I was to be picky I'd say it sounds a bit stale.

In the second last bar of the first movement, there's some harmonic ninth intervals. It doesn't sound too nice, but sounds ok if one (preferably both) of the parts making the harmonic ninth interval is an embelishment on an unstressed beat.

Also, the first movement isn't really resolved. You jump to a note that's not the tonal center and it's just like, whoa what? When you want to resolve (at the end of movements) try to get as many voices moving stepwise to the tonal center as possible.


BTW, if your recording stuff is really bad, don't record it. Aquire FL studio (or reaper if you alread have some good vsti's), export it as a midi out of whatever program, open it with FL, apply some awesome vst's, render it and you have a nicely recorded song. Just remember to name what VST you were using.

Sorry I missed your post before, I just skimmed, I was busy.

First momemnt isn't resolved yet, I'm still working on it. I got some nice chromatic stuff to take care of the consonance also.

And I got what you said about the unstressed beat and ninth thing, I've already taken care of it, I didn't like the sound of it either. Like I said, this is just a sketchbook of my ideas, still in the experimental stage. Nothing is certain.

Stepwise towards tonal center. Got it.

I see you're approaching a lot of your explanations in a countrapuntal fashion. I should really brush up on my counterpoint. I've studied it back in the day, read many books, and did exercises, but never thought to apply it to compositions in which there is no direct counterpoint.

Thanks for your advice, and I'm glad you liked some of it!

#156
Quote by demonofthenight
That's why you put it through FL and apply some VST's. Most VST's sound way better than RSE.

I'm lost in a storm of acronyms. What the hell are you talking about?
ALWAYS

WANNA BE WITH YOU,
MAKE BELIEV
E WITH YOU,
AND L
IVE IN HARMONY, HARMONY,



OH, LOOVE!
#157
^Fruity Loops studio (FL) is a Digital audio workstation. You ever wonder what electronica writers use for their music? They use DAWs. Fruity Loops is a particularily simple DAW.

VST's are Virtual Studio Technology. These are usually effects (you can get reverb vst's, chorus vsts and so on) or generators. Generators is what I'm talking about.

You know how when you write a song in Guitar pro (which some people use as a DAW) you have instruments to pick from? Well generators are like that. You pick an instrument (a generator vst) and you give it some notes to play.

What's great about FL is that you can import midi's, drag a generator from the generator menu to your track, hear your track being played by a nice sounding VST (instead of the crappy midi stuff).
Quote by SilverDark
...

I have no clue WTF I did.

I remember humming the bassline on my way to class and recorded it. Then for kicks I just opened up Guitar Pro and transcribed the melody from the phone to my guitar to the program, then everything followed suit. I made it into an AABA form cause I was playing So What/Impressions with my band and I wanted to see if I could emulate what Miles did. The solo was a damn simple Harmonic Minor scale cause I started listening to Yngwie and the scale sounded so cool.

IDK, it still sounds cool as I play it. I can probably do some major touches. Any thoughts from your end guys?

EDIT: And if its bad, don't rag on me. It was my first composition.
lololol, it sounds like mission impossible Sorry, I probably raped your song...

The sax line sounds a bit off when it comes in. Probably because there are major seventh and augmented fourth harmonic intervals in between the alto sax and the guitar. Major sevenths might sound fine when they're used between passing tones, but not so great when they're on stressed beats.

By far my favourite bit is the C bit.

I also really like that driving bass riff. Those first 4 notes are really rhythmically interesting and the chromatic run gives it a great touch. The drums fit perfectly imo. Very jazzy.


Quote by one vision
I see you're approaching a lot of your explanations in a countrapuntal fashion. I should really brush up on my counterpoint. I've studied it back in the day, read many books, and did exercises, but never thought to apply it to compositions in which there is no direct counterpoint.

Thanks for your advice, and I'm glad you liked some of it!
If I see some classical, metal or jazzy looking stuff with alot of riffs playing at once and countermelodies, I'll approach it and suggest counterpoint stuff. If I see more melody over chords stuff, I'll approach it very differently (I'll suggest more melodical stuff).

And I like most of the works here and the rest are great as well (just not my cup o' tea). Don't be suprised if I ninja heaps of ideas from these songs.
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#158
Quote by michal23
Anyone on here composed some orchestral stuff in guitar pro (or recorded, if you're that lucky)?


I might get something recorded by the end of this upcoming semester.

It should be fun, though I'm a bit more interested in doing things for smaller groups or soloists.
(Slightly outdated) Electronic and classical compositions by m'self: Check 'em out
#159
Quote by demonofthenight
lololol, it sounds like mission impossible Sorry, I probably raped your song...

The sax line sounds a bit off when it comes in. Probably because there are major seventh and augmented fourth harmonic intervals in between the alto sax and the guitar. Major sevenths might sound fine when they're used between passing tones, but not so great when they're on stressed beats.

By far my favourite bit is the C bit.

I also really like that driving bass riff. Those first 4 notes are really rhythmically interesting and the chromatic run gives it a great touch. The drums fit perfectly imo. Very jazzy.

Yeah, jazzy was something I wanted to go for, something up beat, a little hectic, in a hurry. Then I thought about New York and so it made sense for the song to be named that way.

When I was composing this I had little knowledge of theory, all I was thinking was doing the bassline, then move the entire line up a fourth. The same were for the saxes, the lines are a fourth apart. I'll see if I can move some stuff around, but could you explain the concept of passing tones to me?

And I'm glad someone likes something of it, everything was just thrown in around 5 hours or somethin. Somethin somethin. Huh?
If you play guitar, please don't waste your time in The Pit, and please instead educate yourself in the Musician Talk forum, where you can be missing out on valuable info.
Quote by DiminishedFifth
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I got meself a self-approving sig. Kick. Ass.
#160
Quote by SilverDark
but could you explain the concept of passing tones to me?

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/demonofthenight/blog/52428/

I'm too lazy. I really need to finish another blog.

By the way, what I mean by major sevenths between passing tones is this:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16342/16342-h/images/fig037.png
Notice how just under the "a" there is a B note, but it's making a major seventh with the C note under it. Usually this sounds like crap, but that B note is a diatonic passing tone and the next harmonic interval is a nice sounding third (normally considered the best harmonic interval in counterpoint).

In counterpoint, you can get away with allmost anything if you're using passing tones and embellishments.
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[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
Last edited by demonofthenight at Jan 12, 2009,