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#161
Quote by demonofthenight

Don't be suprised if I ninja heaps of ideas from these songs.



Also, I REALLY like how I phrased the first few measures of the first part also, but I can't seem to come up with anything else like that. Any tips on doing that kind of stuff?

I don't want it to be just arpeggios throughout, but arpeggios and a melody going at the same time, kind of like the Moonlight Sonata, but a bit happier (as you've heard), and faster of course.
Last edited by one vision at Jan 12, 2009,
#162
Hey guys, I've got a nice little classical piece going. However, it's all phrygian, and I need to mix it up a bit, I need somewhere for it to progress to. It finishes abruptly, I still need to finish that last phrase. Any ideas where I should take it?
Attachments:
12.zip
#164
Quote by one vision
I'll listen when I get home.

If it's classical, and you need an ending, make some kind of cadence.


Well, I need more of a middle. I've kind of a got a rough form of the beginning (needs working, but is more or less done) and I just not sure where to go next.
#166
Quote by one vision
True.

Are you familliar with different parts of a composition, like themes, counterthemes, motifs, etc.?

If you don't, read up on them, they'll help you bring together your ideas into a complete composition


Hmm, I must admit I don't know any of that sort of stuff. I'll have to get round to looking it up. Thanks for the suggestion
#169
Quote by demonofthenight
By the way, what I mean by major sevenths between passing tones is this:
Notice how just under the "a" there is a B note, but it's making a major seventh with the C note under it. Usually this sounds like crap, but that B note is a diatonic passing tone and the next harmonic interval is a nice sounding third (normally considered the best harmonic interval in counterpoint).

(Even though I can't see the image, I still know where it's from.)

But what I am trying to understand is why the B in the major seventh interval is considered a passing tone. Is it related to the underlying chord progression in the piece?
If you play guitar, please don't waste your time in The Pit, and please instead educate yourself in the Musician Talk forum, where you can be missing out on valuable info.
Quote by DiminishedFifth
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#170
Michal23:

The melody that you have going there is nice, but I think you should expand on it, to let people know when the intro is over, and when the first part begins.

This is all part of the themes, counterthemes, motifs stuff I talked. If you understand that and apply it, you're music will be more dynamic (for lack of a better word). Because right now it sounds like one big movement, which is not bad in any way, but you should have some variety in rhythms and phrasing.

Also, I like what you did in bar 41-42. Do more of that, expand on that idea.

This piece has a lot of potential, keep working on it.



Now I'm waiting for demonofthenight to swoop in with his advice.
#171
Yo

Quote by one vision
Also, I REALLY like how I phrased the first few measures of the first part also, but I can't seem to come up with anything else like that. Any tips on doing that kind of stuff?

I don't want it to be just arpeggios throughout, but arpeggios and a melody going at the same time, kind of like the Moonlight Sonata, but a bit happier (as you've heard), and faster of course.
Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psKL89kg0eI
I think it's contrapuntal. You would have to bend/break alot of rules though, mostly because the lower voice (the arpeggio-like thing) would have too many jumps.

Personally I hate moonlight sonata. It's the crappiest song from one of the best composers. I just can't feel a melody, which is what's most important in any peice.

Quote by michal23
Hey guys, I've got a nice little classical piece going. However, it's all phrygian, and I need to mix it up a bit, I need somewhere for it to progress to. It finishes abruptly, I still need to finish that last phrase. Any ideas where I should take it?
For the intro I'm assuming the bass is acting like a melody? If so all those harmonic octaves you've used (bars 1 2 3 4 and 8) probably aren't that great. Because they're all formed on stressed beats one after the other, the ear gets the impression of parallel perfect intervals (you'll read about this in first species counterpoint) which gives the impression that one of the voices has dropped out.

Also, in those same bars, the second note of the bars (G) makes a fifth with the bass on the first beat (C). This is sort of similar to what I was talking about before, it gives the impression that a voice has dropped out. Alot of composers get around this rule by moving from that second note degreewise (so you might play a A or an F after that G) or by approaching this fifth (the G) by a different direction to the last fifth as in like this:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16342/16342-h/images/fig028.png

Also in bars 6 and 10 you have major seventh harmonic intervals on stressed beats. This is never good. On stressed beats you should only be using thirds, sixths, fifths and octaves. You should use alot more thirds and sixths than anything else.
You've also got a similar problem in bar 14. There's a major seventh and neither note is acting like a passing tone. This makes the major seventh reallly obvious.

I think you've also got unisons throughout part 1, not sure if it's deliberate or not. It sounds like you're hitting the same note twice, which sounds a bit weird.

I agree with one vision, it does have a nice melody, it's just that the accompaniment doesn't really help it as much as it should.
Also, the idea on bars 41 and 42 is really great (sort of like across the stars). This is suprisingly well written, it might look like you have a minor second harmonic interval there (which is usually a bad), but because both voices are moving degreewise it doesn't sound obvious. This gives a nice sounding dissonance which is sort of resolved.

First time I heard it I wondered why it didn't resolve (as a whole). Then I realised that you have one voice left hanging, which can easily be fixed by including an E in your last chord. This makes the song sound much more resolved at the very end.
So the last chord looks like:
E|-8--
C|----
G|-9--
C|----
A|-10-
F|----

This helps but doesnt really fix the problem... I guess it might just be because you built something interesting up and didn't continue it.

Also, what's with the weird tuning?

Quote by SilverDark
But what I am trying to understand is why the B in the major seventh interval is considered a passing tone. Is it related to the underlying chord progression in the piece?
Because the B is both approached and resolved by stepwise movement. It's used to help the movement between the C and the A.
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Last edited by demonofthenight at Jan 13, 2009,
#172
michal23 your right it does end sort of abruptly, I couldn't view it properly, I looked and the notation though Sibelius (crappy importer for MIDI), it had too many ties (thanks to Sibelius again). I have one suggestion, you can continue from your ending as it's not really something final. So you could write episode 2 or part two quite easily. I'm not sure what to do to help you more, I guess I'll wait for others to answer first. Sorry.
#173
The ending is so abrupt because it's not the end of a phrase, don't worry guys! Thanks very much for the suggestions, I'll work on it

Oh, and I like using weird tunings because A. I love the sound of open strings, and using open and alternate tunings gives me way more options (or at least I get the impression) and B. I don't really know what note I'm hitting, so I'm forced to work by ear entirely, and not by familiar shapes.
#175
Quote by demonofthenight

Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psKL89kg0eI
I think it's contrapuntal. You would have to bend/break alot of rules though, mostly because the lower voice (the arpeggio-like thing) would have too many jumps.

Personally I hate moonlight sonata. It's the crappiest song from one of the best composers. I just can't feel a melody, which is what's most important in any peice.

Yeah, kinda like that, but not really.

I mean like what I did in the first few measures, interleaving the arpeggios (operating as rhythm) and a melody.

And my dad agrees , he says the moonlight sonata is tedious to listen to, and says it's a dumbed down piece for the general public to appreciate

Meh.

Any intervals you'd recommend?
#176
Quote by one vision
Yeah, kinda like that, but not really.

I mean like what I did in the first few measures, interleaving the arpeggios (operating as rhythm) and a melody.

And my dad agrees , he says the moonlight sonata is tedious to listen to, and says it's a dumbed down piece for the general public to appreciate

Meh.

Any intervals you'd recommend?
You mean in the arps? Chord tones. Or do you mean harmonic intervals in general? Thirds and sixths.

I tried writing one, it works fine when it's only one melody over some arps (allthough I changed a few notes from the arpeggios), but when you try to have two independent melodies over an arp it gets a bit hard.
Truth be told I suck at counterpoint, I only just started a month ago and have very little experience. I only know the rules because it's fresh in my mind
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#178
What, do you mean so the melody crosses the arp? Like voice crossing?

Generally prolonged voice-crossing is a nono. I think it's just because it'd be too hard to write and sing (most counterpoint books are written for chorals, which pisses me off)
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#180
Hello fellow composers

I just uploaded my latest piece. It is in my profile titled "galactic froth"

Kind of a psychadelic blues rock instramental thing. Let me know what you guys think "ecspecialy the end solo"

For the intro I sang each note of a Bminor chord and added effects and such. I am rather happy with it, so again, let me know what you think.
Quote by Gabel
You are EXTREMELY WRONG! I have played it. I own an 18W and it would be an awful stereo amp, it's way too bright, breaks up too easily and so on. Secondly, why would a guitar store sell an hifi amp.
#181
I liked it. Thought it could have been more polished but very...searching for the word...atmospheric? Nice to see some experimentation. Thought it could have maybe gone somewhere. I was kind of hoping it would tighten up some drums would fade in thump thump thump thump and everything would lock together in a solid backbone with some pyschadelic exploration over the top.

The Intro set things up nicely. I felt there could have been some lower frequency range stuff to beefen up the overall sound, but maybe it was just the speakers I was listening on. I don't know - keep it up.
Si
#182
^^ I also liked it, but 20, If u imagine lyrics over it, I think the piece is quite complete.

Nevertheless I don't comment on solo's and stuff, but the song itself was quite nice. I don't know if you intend lyrics, but they would totally make that song complete, cause like 20tigers said, it doesn't have quite enough movement to hold the listeners attention if it's purely instrumental.

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#183
Quote by xxdarrenxx
^^ I also liked it, but 20, If u imagine lyrics over it, I think the piece is quite complete.

Nevertheless I don't comment on solo's and stuff, but the song itself was quite nice. I don't know if you intend lyrics, but they would totally make that song complete, cause like 20tigers said, it doesn't have quite enough movement to hold the listeners attention if it's purely instrumental.

Yes, I do plan on adding lyrics with a distinct vocal melody (just havn't made them yet ) But this is pretty much the skeloton of the song. If you can imagine drums bass and vocals with about 3 more minutes (maybe another solo at the very end) that will be how it is pictured in my mind.
Quote by Gabel
You are EXTREMELY WRONG! I have played it. I own an 18W and it would be an awful stereo amp, it's way too bright, breaks up too easily and so on. Secondly, why would a guitar store sell an hifi amp.
#185
WishfulShredder:
The chord progression in the first part is weird, but still relatively nice. I don't think it really resolves anywhere. I'd like to know if there was method behind that madness.

I also noticed that most of the first part is written in triplets, wouldn't it be easier to write it in 3/4 or 6/8 or 12/8?

You've got a seventh, ninth and second intervals on a stressed beat on bars 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 12, 14, 22, 23 and 28. You've also got a tritone on a stressed beat on bars 11 but I'm gonna say it's fine because it seems like it's used like a grace note. This isn't that great, as stressed beats (the first note of every bar) should be as consonant as possible and sevenths/ninths are the most dissonant harmonic intervals.

Bars 18, 19 and 20 are very well constructed, except the melodic tritone between bars 18 and 19 in the upper voice sounds a bit off, even if it's resolved. You shouldn't use tritones on jumps like that, it emphasises the tritone.
The two things I like best about this part is that it seems to be written in the superlocrian mode with a leading tone to resolve and that when it does resolve, another instrument is used. I really like that effect.

You've also got to remember that chord tones should be used on stressed beats. You had a non-chordtone on a stressed beat on bar 26, but I forgot where else (really bad memory on my part) though

You resolve on bar 10 but continue the song. Generally composers avoided this until the end of movements. This false ending is produced because you moved upwards by a semitone (creating a leading tone), the harmonic interval of that first note is an octave and that you did this on a stressed beat.

On bar 21 you have a compound jump (a melodic jump that's more than an octave). Most composers avoid this (except some romantic composers) because it sounds very bumpy. Some texts I've read even say that you shouldn't move more than an octave within two jumps (so like C up to G up to D, and C-D is more than an octave) as it's too bumpy.

You've got a really large jump between bars 21 and 22, which is fine because you resolved this by step (1 or 2 semitones) but it's done on a stressed beat so it's sort of emphasised, which isn't great.

I really like bar 23. It's a sort of jazzy turnaround with a chromatic bassline, very nice. It's sort of weird how you wrote it down rhythmically though. It sounds like it might be a time signature change, but it's not written as one.

There's a seventh interval on a stressed beat on bar 27. This is still bad (but not as bad) because it's between the lowest and highest voice.

You have a clusterfuck (it's a technical term, I think) of a chord in the middle of bar 27. The chord: F, G, Ab should not be unless it's a very rare circumstance (on an unstressed beat, all parts moving degree wise, the outer voices moving in contrary directions and it being resolved on a very consonant chord).

Overall, I actually liked it. It's probably one of my favourites in the thread. It has a sort of Amanda Palmer cross rpg game music feel imo.

Well I'm hungry so I might come back to the rest later. I might also look at SG mans stuff.
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#186
Quote by demonofthenight
longpost


Thaaaaaaankyou
Quote by demonofthenight
I'd like to know if there was method behind that madness.


I havent learnt a whole lot of harmony counterpoint classical rules etc (jazz ftw), so I just use the ear.

Its really more of a group of Ideas than a piece at the mo and I realise that some of the transitions are dodgy (especially the end), because I have absolutely no Idea how to approach them.
anyway, thanks for the input, and I really REALLY didnt think of using 12/8
;
Quote by demonofthenight
It's probably one of my favourites in the thread

awesome
Last edited by WishfulShredder at Jan 15, 2009,
#187
What do you do when EVERYTHING sounds dissonant? I tried writing a song, despite being too lazy to eat, but I heard something dissonant on every second note. In the end I wrote this 5 voice song (which, for some reason why eludes my sleep deprived mind, made it really easy) with alot of chromatic runs.

Goddamn it, the one time when the midi on my computer works. If I was awesome at piano, I wouldn't need guitar-pro to test if something sounds decent.

I might post what I wrote tomorow if I deem it decent. Everything sounds weird when you're tired.
Quote by WishfullShredder
I havent learnt a whole lot of harmony counterpoint classical rules etc (jazz ftw), so I just use the ear.
Haha, I'm pretty sure (not completely sure) that Ellington and Shorter and Goodman knew counterpoint. The way alot of jazz orchestration texts explain it, you need to know counterpoint.
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#188
^ Ellington was self taught, but had a finely developed sense of where each instrument belonged and what it's "voice" sounded like. I suppose you could say he knew counterpoint the same way Slash knows the blues scale.
#189
I deleted the old one because there was an error in it.

Also, I made the ending a little more evil sounding.

Any crits/comments?
Attachments:
Cruel_Sea.zip
ALWAYS

WANNA BE WITH YOU,
MAKE BELIEV
E WITH YOU,
AND L
IVE IN HARMONY, HARMONY,



OH, LOOVE!
#191
I made my first youtube vid yesterday

You myt have to crank that volume up a bit lol

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MScnsdhaRYg

It's definitly nothing special. I thought the quality was ok for a ****ty webcam, but the sound i need to definitly work on. Something to do with not using the webcam microphone i bet..
#192
Quote by SG Man Forever
I deleted the old one because there was an error in it.

Also, I made the ending a little more evil sounding.

Any crits/comments?


Freakin' awesome man!
#193
^Thanks!
ALWAYS

WANNA BE WITH YOU,
MAKE BELIEV
E WITH YOU,
AND L
IVE IN HARMONY, HARMONY,



OH, LOOVE!
#194
Quote by steeLmonkeyz
I made my first youtube vid yesterday

You myt have to crank that volume up a bit lol

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MScnsdhaRYg

It's definitly nothing special. I thought the quality was ok for a ****ty webcam, but the sound i need to definitly work on. Something to do with not using the webcam microphone i bet..

Cool. I added you on youtube
#195
Quote by demonofthenight
What do you do when EVERYTHING sounds dissonant?

learn to enjoy dissonance more.
ALWAYS

WANNA BE WITH YOU,
MAKE BELIEV
E WITH YOU,
AND L
IVE IN HARMONY, HARMONY,



OH, LOOVE!
#198
Quote by Freepower
^ Ellington was self taught, but had a finely developed sense of where each instrument belonged and what it's "voice" sounded like. I suppose you could say he knew counterpoint the same way Slash knows the blues scale.
Actually...
learn to enjoy dissonance more.
It doesn't sound like classical dissonance, it doesn't sound like jazz dissonance or even metal dissonance, it sounds like "random notes and clusterfucks" dissonance.
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#200
Quote by demonofthenight
Actually...
It doesn't sound like classical dissonance, it doesn't sound like jazz dissonance or even metal dissonance, it sounds like "random notes and clusterfucks" dissonance.

'Classical' and 'metal' dissonance are quite often the same thing. I'm writing a few metal riffs based on the opening of Tristian und Isolde, which is one of the most evil, dissonant pieces I know.
ALWAYS

WANNA BE WITH YOU,
MAKE BELIEV
E WITH YOU,
AND L
IVE IN HARMONY, HARMONY,



OH, LOOVE!