#1
/intro

c4c


for alex – oh drunken philosopher

you never believed me
when I told you I loved her
“you can never love anyone more than your mother,”
I wonder if I just imagined your sly smile,
through internet wires
as you questioned the structure of my relationships.
Well, let me tell you about her
then maybe you can understand.

Where to begin?
she’s five one
sixteen
and absolutely beautiful.
she jokingly refers to herself as
a fire faerie,
the joke being in the irony of joking,
for there is no other way to describe her.
One moment warm and caring,
the next fiery and passionate.
We do not fit together,
so much as melt
into some amorphous form
indistinguishable in shape
but whole in purpose.
We are two drops of dew on a leaf
freefalling towards the ground.

Yes, she fucked me over,
but somehow I’m not mad.
she led me on,
strung me so tight I could have snapped,
used me up and sucked me dry,
then told me to go slow.
But still,
I am not mad.
For a part of me saw it coming,
and didn’t do anything to stop it.
And more than anything,
I need her,
like a poet needs clichés.
she’s my safety net,
my insurance policy,
my refuge.
I am her escape,
but she is my prison.
I am eternally trapped,
but I can’t think of anywhere else
I’d rather be.

j’adore tu, ma chere, pour toujours et toujours

So,
as you sit there on the other side of the world,
with your whiskey and PhD,
your never ending well that has slowly run dry,
can you see through my eyes?
you told me she was beautiful
déjà vu, suddenly you’re me and I’m you,
punch drunk on cheap words and philosophy,
telling you to grab her and never let go.
you can take what you want, but want what you take

so, doctor,
it’s it you or me who’s really insane?
Either way,
I guess I’ll see you once again,
out on the D-train.


If you're not interested in this sort of thing, just skip, but i feel this piece needs a little background to be fully comprehended. This piece was inspired by a few conversations that occured between Alex and myself. I was in the car, trying to write something about a recent bad patch between me and my girlfriend, when suddenly i remembered some stuff ALex and I had talked about. Instantly, this piece flowed out. It's been trimmed since, but i'd like people's opinions. There are a lot of refrences to those conversations in here. Mainly the stuff in italics and the first and third last stanza. Except the French. Enough rambling.
Last edited by kdownes at Jan 13, 2009,
#2
You said /intro, but then you gave an outro.

Ahh well.

I will read this properly when I can concentrate, you deserve a lot on this.

Although right now, I will say that I hope you haven't wrapped this up in inside jokes, and that there is still a way in for everyone else.

Who is Alex?
#3
Don't worry, Sam, there is very few inside jokes. THe theme is universal enough, and the personal stuff explained enough, tht everyone should get it. And Alex is Alex Fontaine, an ex-UG S&L regular. skagitup.
#4
Thanks so much for your crit on my song; I really enjoyed reading it and considered the actual criticism I could find in it.

Even if you hadn't given your feedback on it, though, I probably would've given my opinion on this piece anyway, because my name is Alex, and I'm reasonably narcissistic. But enough precursor; onto the crit.

you never believed me
when I told you I loved her
“you can never love anyone more than your mother,” you said
I wonder if I just imagined your sly smile,
through internet wires
as you questioned the structure of my relationships.
Well, let me tell you about her
then maybe you can understand.


Even if Alex did use the "mother" line, I'm not particularly digging it in this piece, I guess because I'm a rhyme nazi and I have a mental list of words/phrases that are rhymed too often, "love her" and "mother" being on that list. Also, this breaks the rule that everyone's teachers told them in 2nd grade (not to start off a story with "I'm going to tell you about..." because it is implied) but that's more stylistic/preferential rather than technical I suppose. Other than that, this first stanza caught my interest, especially with the "sly smile" and "internet wire" lines.

Where to begin?
she’s five one
sixteen years old
and absolutely beautiful.
she jokingly refers to herself as
a fire faerie,
the joke being in the irony of joking,
for there is no other way to describe her.
One moment warm and caring,
the next fiery and passionate.
We do not fit together,
so much as melt
into some amorphous form
indistinguishable in shape
but whole in purpose.
We are two drops of dew on a leaf
freefalling towards the ground.


I won't lie, I didn't really like this until almost the end of it when I began to appreciate the artsy nature of it and I reread it all. Still not sure how much I like anything before the first "fire fairy" line, but everything after that was really cool and sort of established a playful yet serious tone.

Yes, she ****ed me over,
but somehow I’m not mad.
she led me on,
strung me so tight I could have snapped,
used me up and sucked me dry,
then told me to go slow.
But still,
I am not mad.
For a part of me saw it coming,
and didn’t do anything to stop it.
And more than anything,
I need her,
like a poet needs clichés.
she’s my safety net,
my insurance policy,
my refuge.
I am her escape,
but she is my prison.
I am eternally trapped,
but I can’t think of anywhere else
I’d rather be.


Honestly didn't like this bit much at all. With your rhyming skills there's really no point in going without if it's going to affect the quality of your work to this extent. As a writer, it seems like you started speaking entirely with your heart instead of your head, therefore disregarding certain poetic techniques, etc...I thought it was quite cliche, and that it weakened the piece, but you're definitely not a bad writer, you just wrote a bad verse imo.

The French part after it I liked and thought it brought some spice to this.


So,
as you sit there on the other side of the world,
with your whiskey and your PhD,
your never ending well that has slowly run dry,
can you see through my eyes?
you told me she was beautiful
déjà vu, suddenly you’re me and I’m you,
punch drunk on cheap words and philosophy,
telling you to grab her and never let go.
you can take what you want, but want what you take


The absence of major structure threw me off here, but I think this is brilliant (which is not something you'll hear from me often) especially the "whiskey and PhD" line because, well, my name is Alex, I dig whiskey and I plan on double-majoring in psychology and philosophy haha. And I absolutely loved the last line. Simple, but not overly cliche.

I don’t know if you’ll ever read this,
or ever care to. My words mean
nothing to you, and everything
to me. But somehow,
I need someone else to
caresee
accept
me


Mixed feelings about this one. You pulled off a lack of artistic depth in some of the other stanzas but I don't think this one quite makes the cut. Maybe find a more metaphorical way to say these common things that makes your song more centralized and special to what you wrote about.

so, doctor,
it’s it you or me who’s really insane?
Either way,
I guess I’ll see you once again,
out on the D-train.


I liked the first line, and I'm assuming the last one is an inside joke. Overall I thought you summed things up relatively well here. You should really "doctor" up some of the other parts of this song because obviously it's something that's at least a little bit close to your heart, which gives it major potential to be a great piece.

Anyway, thanks once again for the crit. Hope to see more from you soon.
#5
I was wondering if i'd bump into another Alex. That second last stanza is one i've been tossing up over whether to keep or not. And the last stanza is a ply on Bob Dylan, from the second verse of Visions of Johanna. Alex is a big Dylan fan.
"In the empty lot where the ladies play blind man's buff with the key chain
and the all night girls they hisper of escapades out on the D-train
we can hear the nightwatchman click his flashlight and ask himself if its him or them thats really insane."

And as for the lack of structure, this is freeform, not structured. I don't write a lot of ctructured stuff, due to my almost total lack of poetic technical skill. That's also why there's no rhymes. The "loved her/mother" was a complete coincidence that i hadn't noticed before. I'm glad you enjoyed it. PM me when you post another piece and i'll hit you back.
#6
Yeah, I assumed it was freeform for the most part and wondered if much of the alliteration, etc. was coincidence. Like I said, it's more so my preference. I'm such a rhyme nazi that freeform kind of frustrates me.

But yeah, for sure. And you feel free to do the same.
#7
Quote by kdownes
My words mean
nothing to you
no need for literary critique, i just flat out disagree with that.
#8
i love how personal it is. theres all the inside stuff that makes it very clear to the person it's about what your talking about. I can rarely write songs like this. Usually i start out personal nd then get so buried in the metaphores i forget what the songs about by the time i finish.
great lyrics though, really.
#9
Holy shit, Alex, you were the last person i expected to read this. I can understand why you'd disagree with that. I'm really considering dropping that whole stanza. I hope you did like this, though, even if you might disagree with some of it.
#10
Don't worry, I haven't forgotten, I will get to this.


EDIT: Am working on it, doing it on word.

will be up here soon, tomorrow morning if i wake up, Monday if not (I'm doing something this weekend ).

Sorry.
Last edited by ginjaninja at Jan 9, 2009,
#11
I was wondering if you were going to get to this, Sam. I'm really interested in hearing what you have to say.
#12
Quote by kdownes
Holy shit, Alex, you were the last person i expected to read this. I can understand why you'd disagree with that. I'm really considering dropping that whole stanza. I hope you did like this, though, even if you might disagree with some of it.

Oh man I see some UG drama coming up

Anyway, I really liked this piece. Some of it didn't make sense to me at all, like the french part (which I'm going to assume has meaning in some way) and the whole "doctor" stanza at the end. I do like how personal this is and that this all flowed out from nothing, that's actually pretty amazing.

Thanks for the comment on my piece. I wish I could say more about this, but I haven't read a lot of poetry, I just write lyrics sometimes.
#13
you never believed me
when I told you I loved her
“you can never love anyone more than your mother,” you said
“you said” felt pointless here, ruined a perfect quote with unnecessary additions; we can already work out who said that.
I wonder if I just imagined your sly smile,
This, although it did make sense, took a long while for me to work it out, I tripped up over it. This is because it is just wrong for someone to say “I wonder if I just thought of –thing-”, because you either did, or you didn’t. Find a way to reword this line, as even though I understand it, I am still tripping up over the way you say it.
through internet wires
“Internet wires” is a boring way to say this. Maybe because I’ve heard too many things about technology, and telex and fibres and crazy magical things that you can’t see, but even so, “internet wires” is very boring, average, especially as the words dominate that line, you want them powerful.
as you questioned the structure of my relationships.
I’m indecisive as to whether relationships should be plural. The rest of the piece focuses entirely on the one between you and you girlfriend, yet L3 touches on maternal relationships. You see where I’m coming from?
Well, let me tell you about her
then maybe you can understand.
This felt anticlimactic, all too simple, childlike if you will.

Where to begin?
she’s five one
sixteen years old
This was dull, and although I like the idea of first referring to facts on these two lines, then your opinion on the next (I’m very interested in how perspective can change how people see things, but that’s slightly irrelevant right now) it took you far too long to tell us her age and height. Also, you shorten the height to say “five one”, when fully it should be “five foot one inch”, yet you used the longer version for height, when it could just be “she’s sixteen”. Therefore, I think you should change the order of these two lines, so have age first, and use the shortened form for both of them (maybe even have them on the same line, but that might ruin the effect).
and absolutely beautiful.
As I said, this line has a massive effect, brilliant, a good use of a clever device.
she jokingly refers to herself as
a fire faerie,
I’m considering putting the line break before “as”, not after, to give it more flow. You seem to rarely use enjambment for flow, more usually for effect. You have to remember that it is basically another type of punctuation, similar to a comma or full stop. Yes, they can be used for effect, but the main purpose is for natural ebbs and flows of the tide-like rhythm in poetry.
the joke being in the irony of joking,
for there is no other way to describe her.
One moment warm and caring,
the next fiery and passionate.
I don’t like the repetition of the exact word “fire” after that line up there. You may, and in all reasons should use that idea, but not the same words.
We do not fit together,
so much as melt
into some amorphous form
indistinguishable in shape
but whole in purpose.
We are two drops of dew on a leaf
freefalling towards the ground.
I love this, up until here, the piece has been all factual, and descriptive, but here, you finally let loose with emotion, pretty words and fancy images. It is very well placed, the reader can really feel your emotions towards the person.

Yes, she ****ed me over,
but somehow I’m not mad.
she led me on,
strung me so tight I could have snapped,
Drop “me”, change “could have” to “could’ve”.
used me up and sucked me dry,
then told me to go slow.
But still,
I am not mad.
Repetition of “I’m not mad” shows that you are
For a part of me saw it coming,
and didn’t do anything to stop it.
And more than anything,
I need her,
like a poet needs clichés.
she’s my safety net,
my insurance policy,
my refuge.
I am her escape,
but she is my prison.
I am eternally trapped,
but I can’t think of anywhere else
I’d rather be.
Beautiful and clever, intricate yet strong.

j’adore tu, ma chere, pour toujours et toujours
Nice. I’m so thankful for my French knowledge :]

So,
as you sit there on the other side of the world,
with your whiskey and your PhD,
I didn’t like the repetition of “your”. Reword it to make it snappier, sharper.
your never ending well that has slowly run dry,
can you see through my eyes?
you told me she was beautiful
déjà vu, suddenly you’re me and I’m you,
punch drunk on cheap words and philosophy,
telling you to grab her and never let go.
you can take what you want, but want what you take
Brilliant.

so, doctor,
it’s it you or me who’s really insane?
Either way,
I guess I’ll see you once again,
out on the D-train.
Good, I guess the D-train is an inside joke. I’m not sure if I like the rhythm or rhymes, it all seems quite forced.

Sorry for taking so long.

As you can probably see, the length and quality of my crit depreciated as time goes by, but maybe it was just that at first i was apprehensive of the style, but it grew on me.

I think, here, you really did just put out inside references and all that, which is fine, but you didn't back it up with anything, it was only strong through the emotions you poured into it. And this would be fine... if you weren't just 15 years old.

Whatever, bump as you asked for it
#14
I see you picked out on why i used the repeitition of "i am not mad". Well done, i wondered if anyone acuall would. THanks for the crit, Sam, i'm going to rewrite this now.
#15
I absolutely despise everyone that include a foreign language in their piece without having any understanding of it. I hate it with a passion.

you CAN'T put a line in an online translator, make copy/paste. It messes up the language. the french bit you had there just can't be said, it's grammatically incorrect, the syntax is inverted and no one ever talks like that. I stopped reading there, and won't be back to read it once more.

That's just a very ignorant thing to do.
#16
i would justify by saying that its a direct quote from someone, and essential to the piece, but you wouldnt care.

EDIT: Plus, you're from Quebec. Completely different language. It's like Mandarin and Cantonese. Different grammar and syntax. My girlfriend speaks french and she said its correct, and trust me, she tears my french to **** all the time.
Last edited by kdownes at Jan 12, 2009,
#17
Quote by kdownes
i would justify by saying that its a direct quote from someone, and essential to the piece, but you wouldnt care.

EDIT: Plus, you're from Quebec. Completely different language. It's like Mandarin and Cantonese. Different grammar and syntax. My girlfriend speaks french and she said its correct, and trust me, she tears my french to **** all the time.


I can't reply on profiles, my answer is too long.



i must disagree with your comment on my piece. For one, my girlfriend speaks French and she's the one who taught me the phrase and trust me, if it was wrong, she'd let me know. She's like a French nazi. And second, aren't you from Quebec? It's a different language, different grammar and syntax and everything over there. It's like Mandarin and Cantonese, yes, they're both CHinese and similar, but they're completely different too. I think you're being very close minded by saying what you said. I'm not offended, i really couldn't care less, its just the principle that bothers me.


you are ignorant. French from québec and France ain't like chinese and cantonese. They grew to be a little different, but the syntax and grammar stays the same. Vocabulary is where the difference is. French is my first language, I have many French (from france) friends, I mean, there is no way you can try and prove me wrong on that.

"Je adore tu" is just an absolutely fucktard way of speaking. It is incorrect. Ask any french speaking person, any french teacher, anyone. It's an anglicism. word by word translation of "I adore you". "tu" is a pronoun, but can't be used as a complement. "toi" is the correct phrasing. Even then, "je adore toi" is incorrect. "Je t'adore" is the correct way of writing it.

I can't believe you're trying to teach me my own language. Blow me.
Last edited by circular.parade at Jan 12, 2009,
#18
Just to jump in on this little tiff, I took two years of French in high school, and also got some help from my man Mat here, and I must say that "je t'adore" is quite obviously how it should be written. I would've gotten low marks had I written it the other way. Whoever said "j'adore tu" to you didn't really know French all that well imo. You wouldn't say "J'aime tu" or "je aime tu", it'd be "je t'aime". Just sayin'.

As for your poem, the last three lines in the penultimate stanza were pretty ace, but on the whole I couldn't really connect to this in a literary sense anymore than I could connect to a blog on MySpace or a LiveJournal entry. I definitely could feel the emotion though, so big ups for that. Keep on keepin' on.
#20
I really HATE 'my insurance policy', and the french is grammatically incorrect.
Other than that, I like this. In fact, it's my favorite piece from you. It wasn't too overdone or too plain, and it read easily and well.
Quote by Arthur Curry
it's official, vintage x metal is the saving grace of this board and/or the antichrist




e-married to
theguitarist
minterman22
tateandlyle
& alaskan_ninja

#21
whoa whoa whoa guys. i was not trying to insult anyone really. i was just trying to justify something. if its incorrect, its incorrect. fine, no biggie. really. its a direct quote regardless and if i want to be grammatically incorrect, i grammatical non correct will be. i more interested in the piece, not a grammar lesson. i'm sorry if what i said or my grammar insulted or offended you.
#22
In no French, anywhere in the world, is "j'adore tu" correct. Nowhere. No. where.

Also, Quebec vs France?
Hardly a difference. That's like American English versus English English.

Just, >:|
マリ「しあわっせはーあるいってこないだーからあるいってゆっくんだねーん 
いっちにっちいっぽみーかでさんぽ
 さーんぽすすんでにっほさっがるー 
じーんせいはっわんつー!ぱんち・・・


"Success is as dangerous as failure. Hope is as hollow as fear." - from Tao Te Ching

#23
oh man, you're a mess.

rofl. there is no justification possible for such an error, and what I got mad at is your "I know it all" jackshit attitude.
"my girlfriend took french!!"
Dude. I AM French.

seriously, so much for criticism, right? Your attitude is shit, your poetry is shit, I feel bad for anyone giving you a second of their time.

I'm losing a lot of faith in this place.

Have a nice day.
#24
i apologise if thats the way i came across. it was not my intention to give out a "holier-than-thou" attitude. I admit i made a mistake and am more than willing to humbly apologise. It is not in my interest to insult you or act as if i am better than you. Obviously i have been misinformed. If you accept my apology, fine, if not, fine. It doesn't make a difference to me. I was more confused by the fact that you would refuse to read a piece because of a small error which i was not aware of. You then proceeded to insult me and say that you saw no reason to read this piece because of it. I'm sorry but i find that highly offensive. So what, just because someone makes a mistake in a piece, you refuse to read it? What happened to "this actually should be "yadda yadda". Trust me, i'm French" or whatever. I would have seen no problem with that. The line is something that both my girlfriend and i say to each other a lot. it's like a mantra thing i guess. So what if its wrong? So be it. But what happened to offering unbiased crits on people pieces? Maybe i come across as a prick, so be it. But how can you say my attitude is **** and my poetry is **** and the you "Feel bad" for everyone who gives me a second of their time? Aren't you being hypocritical? Isn't that "I'm better than you"?

At this rate i'm going to ask Zach to close this, for everyones safety. If there is any legitimate criticism, like that offered by earlier people, then please provide it. I don't see why this slinging match should continue, though i admit i was the one at fault.
#25
I don't complain when French bands get their English phrasing wrong. I don't complain when Swedish bands get their English phrasing wrong. I don't complain when any bands get their English phrasing wrong.

It's a simple matter of asking someone to explain something without putting them on the defensive. I've done it before, hell, I've probably done it before in the past week, but just ask and if you don't like the answer, state that, because that's you critting the piece, or simply say that it was grammatically incorrect.
There's only one thing we can do to thwart the plot of these albino shape-shifting lizard BITCHES!
#26
rewritten if someone is still interested. Just some small neatening up things, bit of flow adjustment, trimming etc.
#27
aight
/intro

c4c


for alex – oh drunken philosopher

you never believed me
when I told you I loved her
“you can never love anyone more than your mother,” you said
I wonder if I just imagined your sly smile,
through internet wires
as you questioned the structure of my relationships.
Well, let me tell you about her
then maybe you can understand.

6/7/15/12/6/13/8/8
whatever happened to flow? it's seriously messed up here. The quote is really out of place, interferes with the flow. You really need to find a way to include quotations without fucking up. hint hint . carrying on ; "I wonder if I just imagined your sly smile through internet wires"
am i the only one that burst out laughing at how ridicule that is?



Where to begin?
she’s five one
sixteen years old
and absolutely beautiful.
why is this on poetry form? I see prose here.
she jokingly refers to herself as
a fire faerie,
no. no please. you gotta be fucking kidding me.
the joke being in the irony of joking,
SIGH
for there is no other way to describe her.
One moment warm and caring,
the next fiery and passionate.
We do not fit together,
so much as melt
into some amorphous form
indistinguishable in shape
but whole in purpose.
We are two drops of dew on a leaf
freefalling towards the ground.
I am totally lost. What did the faerie fire thing have to do with anything? is this a D&D thing or some ****? "indistinguishable in shape but whole is purpose" would be great if it would be used in a decent context. I won't even get started on "are you on a leaf, or free-falling?"

Yes, she fucked me over,
but somehow I’m not mad.
she led me on,
strung me so tight I could have snapped,
used me up and sucked me dry,
then told me to go slow.
But still,
I am not mad.
FLOW. PLEASE FIX THE FLOW.
For a part of me saw it coming,
and didn’t do anything to stop it.
And more than anything,
I need her,
like a poet needs clichés.
stop what? what did she do? "**** you up?" you ain't telling us about anything. I can only take it in a literal sense, in which case you should definitely quit your crying.
she’s my safety net,
ew
my insurance policy,
my refuge.
I am her escape,
but she is my prison.
I am eternally trapped,
but I can’t think of anywhere else
I’d rather be.
poor , empty writing. with awful flow.

j’adore tu, ma chere, pour toujours et toujours

WRONG YOU ARE , FRIEND! MY


So,
as you sit there on the other side of the world,
with your whiskey and your PhD, <rofl
your never ending well that has slowly run dry, good try, but not working. do I even need to explain here?
can you see through my eyes?
you told me she was beautiful
déjà vu, suddenly you’re me and I’m you,
punch drunk on cheap words and philosophy,
telling you to grab her and never let go.
you can take what you want, but want what you take

so, doctor,
it’s it you or me who’s really insane?
mention of doctor here out of the blue really doesn't help to close this piece.
Either way,
I guess I’ll see you once again,
out on the D-train.




katherine, yeah, right, because some other people do bad things it excuses everyone else. I hate your clique thing. Grow up.

sorry I couldn't provide anything more in depth, but I had to hurry up
#28
You might want to think about putting that line in big bold red letters and then telling me to grow up. I respect everyone here as a writer, you included, and these little bitchfests that have been appearing are annoying and utterly useless.
There's only one thing we can do to thwart the plot of these albino shape-shifting lizard BITCHES!
#29
To settle matters, I'm gonna have the final word.


Closed.


Kyle you bumped this thread way too much anyway.
This is not a pipe