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#4
Cb major
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#6
But it's called Cb. It's the same enharmonic equvalent, just named different, as Cb has 7 flats in it's key signature, and B has 5 sharps if i remember correctly
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#7
Quote by liam177lewis
Cb major is B
No, it's not

The Abminor scale is this: Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb Gb
Diatonic scales are ALWAYS written one note (degree) per letter. Also, if it's a flat scale, all accidentals will be flat. Similarily, if it's a natural or a sharp scale, all accidentals are sharp.

So the relative is 2 diatonic steps up. 1 diatonic step up is Bb, another is Cb. There is no B note in the Ab minor scale.
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Last edited by demonofthenight at Jan 12, 2009,
#8
Assuming it's natural minor (b3, b6, b7) we're talking about, it's B or Cb major.

But it's called Cb.

They're both equally correct... if anything, I'd choose to name it B major since it's got less flat/sharp tones in there (5 sharps compared to Cb having 7 flats).

However, since he's asking for the major of Ab minor(not G#), it's better to keep using flat notation, so Cb is nicer. Also, that way they've got the same notes as well as the same pitches.
Last edited by MopMaster at Jan 12, 2009,
#9
there not both equally correct because B isnt relative to Abm. You can think of it as B if it helps you but Cb is relative.
#10
They're both equally correct


No, they aren't. They're only even enharmonic on instruments tuned to 12-TET. Most instruments will treat Cb and B major very differently. Regardless, there is no "B" in Ab minor. B major is incorrect.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#11
Quote by demonofthenight

Diatonic scales are ALWAYS written one note (degree) per letter. Also, if it's a flat scale, all accidentals will be flat. Similarily, if it's a natural or a sharp scale, all accidentals are sharp.

not if John L Jones is doing the teaching.
#12
Quote by branny1982
not if John L Jones is doing the teaching.
Frankly, I don't care

Regardless, he'd agree with the result, just not the method. We get into disagreement when we start talking about non-diatonic scales.
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#13
if you're referring to the key of B specifically as the relative major of Ab minor, it must become Cb major, due to standard, first-day-of-theory-classes nomenclature rules, stating that each note in a scale must have a different letter in it's name.

it's doesn't matter that they're the exact same key, it's that the key is being CALLED the relative major, so in this context, it MUST be Cb.
#14
We made the effort to temper differently-sized semitones into one size, yet we continue to worry about this crap?

Okay, Cb major is the correct one.
#15
Quote by Dodeka
We made the effort to temper differently-sized semitones into one size


Not all instruments play in 12-TET. In fact, most don't. The distinction is still very important.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#16
Quote by Archeo Avis
Not all instruments play in 12-TET. In fact, most don't. The distinction is still very important.


I should think most fixed-pitch Western instruments are generally tuned to 12-edo nowadays, or a slight derivative of it.
#17
Quote by Dodeka
I should think most fixed-pitch Western instruments are generally tuned to 12-edo nowadays, or a slight derivative of it.


Most fixed pitch instruments are designed for specific keys. Some that aren't (such as the harp) still treat enharmonic keys differently. Others (such as the violin) are not bound by equal temperament.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#18
Quote by Archeo Avis
Most fixed pitch instruments are designed for specific keys. Some that aren't (such as the harp) still treat enharmonic keys differently.


Most/some...same thing. It's not unfair to say that 12-edo predominates today.


Quote by Archeo Avis
Others (such as the violin) are not bound by equal temperament.


They're not bound by it, nor can players of such instruments accurately reproduce any particular tuning.
#19
Quote by Dodeka
Most/some...same thing. It's not unfair to say that 12-edo predominates today.


Not the same thing. There is an enormous practical difference between enharmonic tunings.

They're not bound by it, nor can players of such instruments accurately reproduce any particular tuning.


A skilled player is perfectly capable of such accuracy.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#20
Quote by Archeo Avis
Not the same thing. There is an enormous practical difference between enharmonic tunings.


But if they're derived from 12-edo, the pitches are the same.


Quote by Archeo Avis
A skilled player is perfectly capable of such accuracy.


It's been demonstrated that trained players of non-fixed pitch instruments can reproduce pitches to little better than 1:8 tone accuracy.
#21
Quote by frigginjerk
if you're referring to the key of B specifically as the relative major of Ab minor, it must become Cb major, due to standard, first-day-of-theory-classes nomenclature rules, stating that each note in a scale must have a different letter in it's name.

it's doesn't matter that they're the exact same key, it's that the key is being CALLED the relative major, so in this context, it MUST be Cb.
+1
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#22
Quote by Archeo Avis
No, they aren't. They're only even enharmonic on instruments tuned to 12-TET. Most instruments will treat Cb and B major very differently. Regardless, there is no "B" in Ab minor. B major is incorrect.

Most instruments just won't play in Cb major.

Classical orchestras play basically in 12-TET, if all instruments were tuned for different keys then an orchestra would sound terrible.

Because in 12-TET B and Cb major are equivalent you'd be hard pressed to find many, if any, classical works written in Cb major. Therefore, please explain to me how a violinist would play the notes Cb Db and Eb differently from B C# and D#.

Ps, to stay slightly on topic Ab minor is the relative minor to Cb major and that's why you'll see G# minor used much more often.
#23
I'm not sure, but I think the whole system is there for a quite logical season.


1 reason why It DOES make a BIG difference in how u write it down;

Take a staff for example'

If you'd make a diatonic scale with C, D, E, F, F#, A ,B.

Then on ur staff you'd write a # on the F note line (for the key signature), but you also have a normal F, thus A Paradox is created.

So everyone just accept how it's written, it's not like you die, and it actually makes our musical system and notation system far easier to understand.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 13, 2009,
#24
Therefore, please explain to me how a violinist would play the notes Cb Db and Eb differently from B C# and D#.


The same way one would play E differently from F. Cb and B are only enharmonic in 12-TET, a tuning system that the violin is not bound to. That is, in fact, one of the difficulties of the piano quartet (or quintet or x-tet). The violin (and others in its family) are capable of playing perfectly in tune, whereas the piano is not. Combining the two has the potential to be rather unpleasant.

Classical orchestras play basically in 12-TET, if all instruments were tuned for different keys then an orchestra would sound terrible.


It has the potential to sound terrible, yes. Some instruments are just ill suited for specific keys. Some (such as the harp) are ill suited for some keys but can manage another enharmonic key perfectly fine.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#25
I don't understand what the difference in pitch would be between Cb and B. Could you post a video or audio example?
#26
Quote by michal23
I don't understand what the difference in pitch would be between Cb and B. Could you post a video or audio example?


I might be able to post a recording from my keyboard later tonight (it's capable of just intonation, meantone, etc).

You have to understand that there are a variety of methods for assigning frequencies to notes like C and B. All of these basically amount to methods of dividing up an octave. Wiki has a good overview of the 12-TET system...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

...and just intonation...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation

...and meantone...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#27
It's something to do with physics. There actually is a slight difference. An extremely skilled violinist will be able to play this difference. How noticeable it is, don't ask me. A guy called Isaac Bandits made a few posts on it sometime somewhile ago. Really interesting stuff.
#28
^ This is related to the fact that in some tunings C1 will sound different to C4, am I right?

+ Thanks for the links.
#29
How noticeable it is, don't ask me


Alone, it's not something you'd notice unless the two were played side by side. In the context of harmony, however, it can be very noticeable. I'll post a recording of a progression played in 12-TET and then with a properly tuned key later tonight.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#30
Quote by Archeo Avis
The same way one would play E differently from F. Cb and B are only enharmonic in 12-TET, a tuning system that the violin is not bound to. That is, in fact, one of the difficulties of the piano quartet (or quintet or x-tet). The violin (and others in its family) are capable of playing perfectly in tune, whereas the piano is not. Combining the two has the potential to be rather unpleasant.

I doubt the violinist would change a thing.

I've been playing violin for more than six years and I've been taught by a fully qualified teacher who has been playing for I don't know how long, yet at no point has she turned to me and said "By the way, F# is played differently to Gb".

It could be that I've not progressed far enough that she would mention this - seeing as I still have trouble playing perfectly in tune this would be perfectly reasonable. However, the fact that I've never heard this from anyone I've spoken to, be they a proffesional conductor or my friend who was grade 8 violin when she was eleven, apart from you on an internet forum makes me doubt this very much.

Consider this, a violinist is in an orchestra and they play the notes Db in one concerto and C# in another. The soloist in both these concertos happens to be a guitarist and they happen to play the not Db in one and C# in the second at exactly the same time as the (for the sake of argument let's say first) violins.

If the violinsts deliberately play two different notes for the Db and the C# (which I doubt they would, but if they did) but the guitarist was stuck their with his fixed pitches (the guitarist can easily be substitued with a pianist if you try and tell me they use vibrato to change the note) they surely one of these notes will make a terrible clash, no?
#31
^ I just listened to the comparison between equal temperament and just intonation on wikipedia. There is only a very slight difference, but enough of one for a person with a good ear to notice. Listening to them in square waveform, it is very noticeable.
#32
Quote by michal23
^ I just listened to the comparison between equal temperament and just intonation on wikipedia. There is only a very slight difference, but enough of one for a person with a good ear to notice. Listening to them in square waveform, it is very noticeable.

So one of the pitches would have to cause a horrible clash if the violinists play C# and Db differently.
#33
Quote by 12345abcd3
So one of the pitches would have to cause a horrible clash if the violinists play C# and Db differently.


I personally think that the pitches are far too close together to be almost indistinguishable, which questions f course how important it is for the violinist to choose between Cb Major and B Major.
#34
The relative Major for Ab minor is Cb Major. For a guitarist to recognize the enharmonic relationship of Cb and B is perfectly fine.

[/pointlessness debate]
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#35
Quote by Archeo Avis
I'll post a recording of a progression played in 12-TET and then with a properly tuned key later tonight.
You err in assuming that there's something somehow "improper" about tuning using equal temperament. This debate goes on and on and on, but the bottom line is that 12-TET is the all-time, undisputed champion of the tuning world, period. Whatever is in second place is so far behind that it has completely disappeared, comparatively speaking. Other tunings may sound sweeter or darker or more aggressive or more whatever in certain narrowly-defined keys. But no other tuning currently available or on the theoretical horizon is even remotely ready to challenge good ol' 12-TET.

It is also an unquestionable fact that 12-TET's enharmonic tones are sonically identical. It is simply impossible to discern any aural difference between, for example, 12-TET's B and Cb. Why? Because there is none.

Having said all of that, these threads almost always death spiral into this "my tuning is better than yours" debate because posters fail to note the thread-starter's real question. Is he or she asking about "sound" or about "theory"?

If about "sound", then by all means let the tuning temperament debate rage.

If, however, the questiion involves "theory", then the answer is almost always pretty straightforward.

This thread-starter's question:
Quote by liam177lewis
could someone please tell me the relative Major of Abm?

...fits into the second category. The only appropriate answer is Cb major.
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#36
Quote by 12345abcd3
I doubt the violinist would change a thing.

I've been playing violin for more than six years and I've been taught by a fully qualified teacher who has been playing for I don't know how long, yet at no point has she turned to me and said "By the way, F# is played differently to Gb".

It could be that I've not progressed far enough that she would mention this - seeing as I still have trouble playing perfectly in tune this would be perfectly reasonable. However, the fact that I've never heard this from anyone I've spoken to, be they a proffesional conductor or my friend who was grade 8 violin when she was eleven, apart from you on an internet forum makes me doubt this very much.

Consider this, a violinist is in an orchestra and they play the notes Db in one concerto and C# in another. The soloist in both these concertos happens to be a guitarist and they happen to play the not Db in one and C# in the second at exactly the same time as the (for the sake of argument let's say first) violins.

If the violinsts deliberately play two different notes for the Db and the C# (which I doubt they would, but if they did) but the guitarist was stuck their with his fixed pitches (the guitarist can easily be substitued with a pianist if you try and tell me they use vibrato to change the note) they surely one of these notes will make a terrible clash, no?


I hear the difference. There's a sweet spot, and usually because of this, vibrato's cancel it out. There isn't a terrible clash, because our ears are accustomed to this kind of "rape". Same way we don't die if we hear a diminished or b9 interval, which are essentially also soundwaves clashing (dissonant) and we even began to like these intervals. Well some of us (I do)

Also because of reverb these lines (soundwaves) get smurred, but if you play two instruments with the sound waves mixing, and no reverb, coming from the same speaker or sound area, you can hear the resonance.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 13, 2009,
#37
Quote by michal23
I don't understand what the difference in pitch would be between Cb and B. Could you post a video or audio example?


for all practical purposes relating to playing the guitar, they are exactly the same. It's just a matter of what to call it based on the context. Sonically there will be no difference.
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#38
Quote by 12345abcd3
I doubt the violinist would change a thing.


They wouldn't, because they can't. Any violin player's intonation will drift by around 1:8 tone (25 cents). They may want to believe they're better than that, but they're not.
#39
If the violinsts deliberately play two different notes for the Db and the C# (which I doubt they would, but if they did) but the guitarist was stuck their with his fixed pitches (the guitarist can easily be substitued with a pianist if you try and tell me they use vibrato to change the note) they surely one of these notes will make a terrible clash, no?


It's possible, yes. This is something that is often considered by performers in a piano quartet or quintet.

You err in assuming that there's something somehow "improper" about tuning using equal temperament. This debate goes on and on and on, but the bottom line is that 12-TET is the all-time, undisputed champion of the tuning world, period. Whatever is in second place is so far behind that it has completely disappeared, comparatively speaking. Other tunings may sound sweeter or darker or more aggressive or more whatever in certain narrowly-defined keys. But no other tuning currently available or on the theoretical horizon is even remotely ready to challenge good ol' 12-TET.


Well done. You've missed my point entirely.
No one was debating the merits of one tuning system over the other.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
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