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#1
I mean, it is my main genre I play, led zeppelin, aerosmith, ac/dc, gnr, etc... but when I play other genres it stills like blues rock. I'm not using pentatonics, major/minor scale and modes. any suggestions?
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#2
I'm in the same boat you are. Its a hard rut to break out of but you need to learn solos in other genres so when you try to improvise in those solos you don't go back to what you are comfortable with. Getting stuck in a rut happens when you allow yourself to play the same thing too much that it becomes too second nature so even when you are playing another genre, the same thing comes out.
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#4
Quote by lbj273
I'm in the same boat you are. Its a hard rut to break out of but you need to learn solos in other genres so when you try to improvise in those solos you don't go back to what you are comfortable with. Getting stuck in a rut happens when you allow yourself to play the same thing too much that it becomes too second nature so even when you are playing another genre, the same thing comes out.


so.... start playing shred solos ? mr big, racer x, steve vai, here we go!
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The Bible is awesome. Revelation is so badass, I mean, dragons and angels and the devil having an epic battle in the clouds? Badass.
#5
Quote by Bristlehead
it's that minor pentatonic scale, ahahah


i already said im NOT using pentatonics lol.
Quote by Zero-Hartman
The Bible is awesome. Revelation is so badass, I mean, dragons and angels and the devil having an epic battle in the clouds? Badass.
#6
Thats a very common problem, usually caused by pentatonic syndrome. Practice some Vai, gilbert etc.
Last edited by Tempoe at Jan 16, 2009,
#7
the modes will usually take you away from that blues rock sound... if your into zeppelin, listen to their "weirder" stuff - you'll probably find songs where you have to solo differently to stay in key... those other bands tend to be pretty generic though.


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#8
I asked my teacher about this yesterday, I'm pretty much in the same boat. He said to go on a strict "diet" of never playing the stuff you're comfortable with. So basically, if there is one or two scale forms you use most of the time, stop using those completely and either use some other forms that you know but never use, or learn some new ones. Your solos may suck for a while, but after you play the new stuff for a year and start playing the old stuff again, you'll be a much better player.
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#10
Learn some metal songs or shred songs or something, and cover them completely. You'll get some insight on other ways of writing, even if you don't like the genre.
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#11
Quote by Shadow_Hawk
I mean, it is my main genre I play, led zeppelin, aerosmith, ac/dc, gnr, etc... but when I play other genres it stills like blues rock. I'm not using pentatonics, major/minor scale and modes. any suggestions?



Simple answer: listen to, learn about, learn how to play..... something other than blues rock.

thats it.
#12
Okay, so a ton of metal solos make use of nothing more than the blues scale, so the idea that learning new scales will morph you into a metal expert isn't completely inaccurate, but you can do plenty with what you already know (and you said you know full scales so good).

You have to work on phrasing. SRV has used touches of phrygian in blues songs and it sounds bluesy (b2 over the V7 chord=b5 of the V7 chord). Likewise, Eric Johnson uses a lot of blues-based and pentatonic-based licks, but his playing doesn't sound so bluesy to me (Note: Cliffs of Dover is largely in G Major and uses the full G major scale). The way they accomplish this is by the way and when they play notes. Dave Murray of Iron Maiden uses a ton of pentatonic and blues-based licks, but he plays a lot of fast legato passages (ex. Fear of the Dark). That is certainly not a technique traditionally found in the blues!

Of course, metal solos are often faster, more distorted, and more aggressive/menacing than blues solos. Make sure your technique is good as metal solos often make use of sweeps, tapping, and fast picking, and watch the melodic control video in my sig.
#13
Check the internet for some jazz phrasing books. Learn some licks and phrases and move them over different chords, work them into your style and make them a part of your vocabulary like you would blues licks
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#15
I have two responses.

#1. Be glad all of your solos don't sound like a lot of other stuff I hear!

#2. John and UNle are talking about phrasing. That's an element of soloing that gets overlooked. The same notes, some longer, some shorter... a big impact on the total sound.

And, actually, a 3rd response: DON'T START SHREDDING!!! If you don't know what every note in the scale sounds like it is not going to help you play better by playing faster. Selecting the proper notes and playing them with feeling will make better music - and that's what we are supposed to be doing.

Several years ago I got a gig replacing one of my favorite guitarists. I told the drummer, "I don't know if I can play these tunes like Pat does." His answer was, "Play them the way YOU would. No one in the world can do that better." That was a valuable lesson. Be you, and be the best you you can be.
#16
IT doesn't depend on using the Pentatonic scale!!!

It's HOW you use it.

Take the melody line from For The Love Of God by Steve Vai. That opening lick uses all notes from E minor pentatonic and only uses 1 NON pentatonic note. (check the tab if you don't believe me)

And it still remains 1 of the (if not the most) well known melody in the instrumental rock genre.

Learn about Harmony, and how notes sound different over chords.

Eric Johnson, another great example. Uses a lot of pentatonic scales, still he's seen as technically and musically brilliant.

Paul Gilbert would die without the pentatonic scale.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 17, 2009,
#17
Quote by xxdarrenxx
IT doesn't depend on using the Pentatonic scale!!!

It's HOW you use it.

Take the melody line from For The Love Of God by Steve Vai. That opening lick uses all notes from E minor pentatonic and only uses 1 NON pentatonic note. (check the tab if you don't believe me)

And it still remains 1 of the (if not the most) well known melody in the instrumental rock genre.

Learn about Harmony, and how notes sound different over chords.

Eric Johnson, another great example. Uses a lot of pentatonic scales, still he's seen as technically and musically brilliant.

Paul Gilbert would die without the pentatonic scale.


Im not sure For the Love of God is the most well known melody in instrumental rock. It's famous amongst Steve Vai fans for sure, but honestly it doesn't go far beyond that. The only people I know that have heard of it play guitar, or are at least musicians of some sort and are specifically into shred.

Compared to something like Cliffs of Dover, or Summer Song which have received quite of bit of airplay and are well known to the general public, I would consider For the Love of God to be under the radar of most people.


I agree with your overall premise though........... Pentatonic does not necessarily sound bluesy.


-Blues is a style.
- The pentatonic scale is a scale.

It's all about context / style.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jan 17, 2009,
#18
I understand what you're saying about phrasing lol. the problem arises in that when I was first learning what phrasing was, I would only listen to pink floyd, because gilmour and waters are amazing guitarists with great phrasing in their solos. only problem is, they play blues lol.

I love the blues, but I don't want to be confined to just that. besides for the shred gods, which guitarists have good phrasing? should i start looking into jazz like john said? and I'm gonna try incorporating arpeggios into my solos, I know them, but always used them primarily in a rythym guitarist setting. Any more advice would be greatly appreciated.

i've heard things about ripping off the phrasing of other instruments, like sax's and trumpets, would that help?
Quote by Zero-Hartman
The Bible is awesome. Revelation is so badass, I mean, dragons and angels and the devil having an epic battle in the clouds? Badass.
#19
Quote by UNIe
playing modes more often than pentatonic scales would help.
No. Please consult the modes sticky (finally!) for why modes are inappropriate in most scenarios.

Quote by revtfunk
DON'T START SHREDDING!!! If you don't know what every note in the scale sounds like it is not going to help you play better by playing faster. Selecting the proper notes and playing them with feeling will make better music - and that's what we are supposed to be doing.
This is ridiculous. You want to play with taste, but metal solos are fast; don't try to convince anyone or yourself that they aren't.

Quote by Shadow_Hawk
i've heard things about ripping off the phrasing of other instruments, like sax's and trumpets, would that help?
Maybe, but if you're going to rip off another musician (which is completely okay) to play metal better, consider ripping off some metal.
#20
Quote by Shadow_Hawk
I understand what you're saying about phrasing lol. the problem arises in that when I was first learning what phrasing was, I would only listen to pink floyd, because gilmour and waters are amazing guitarists with great phrasing in their solos. only problem is, they play blues lol.

I love the blues, but I don't want to be confined to just that. besides for the shred gods, which guitarists have good phrasing? should i start looking into jazz like john said? and I'm gonna try incorporating arpeggios into my solos, I know them, but always used them primarily in a rythym guitarist setting. Any more advice would be greatly appreciated.

i've heard things about ripping off the phrasing of other instruments, like sax's and trumpets, would that help?


Look into learning something different (not blues based)..... .period.

Good phrasing can be found in practically all styles. Start listening..... find something you like...... then learn it. Enjoy playing it. Continue doing that & learn more.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jan 17, 2009,
#21
Quote by GuitarMunky
Im not sure For the Love of God is the most well known melody in instrumental rock. It's famous amongst Steve Vai fans for sure, but honestly it doesn't go far beyond that. The only people I know that have heard of it play guitar, or are at least musicians of some sort and are specifically into shred.

Compared to something like Cliffs of Dover, or Summer Song which have received quite of bit of airplay and are well known to the general public, I would consider For the Love of God to be under the radar of most people.


I agree with your overall premise though........... Pentatonic does not necessarily sound bluesy.


-Blues is a style.
- The pentatonic scale is a scale.

It's all about context / style.


Good point, I should have said instrumental guitar shred rock. I guess it's not the most well known, but It's 1 of the best use of pentatonic tastiness that I know of (apart from the brilliant EJ licks)

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#22
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Good point, I should have said instrumental guitar shred rock. I guess it's not the most well known, but It's 1 of the best use of pentatonic tastiness that I know of (apart from the brilliant EJ licks)


I agree, it's a great example of using the pentatonic scale and not sounding bluesy.
#23
You have to take the FTLOG chord progression into account. It's Emadd9 to Fmaj7 I believe; that's hardly a blues progression and could definately make a lead sound exotic.

That's also something you can do in metal. Don't write the backing to the solo as a bluesy progression.
#24
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You have to take the FTLOG chord progression into account. It's Emadd9 to Fmaj7 I believe; that's hardly a blues progression and could definately make a lead sound exotic.

That's also something you can do in metal. Don't write the backing to the solo as a bluesy progression.



Well, you're right, it's a matter of style/ context.

The pentatonic scale is just a scale.

The simple solution to not sounding bluesy is to not play in a blues context, or with a blues style. Thats it.
#25
This is ridiculous. You want to play with taste, but metal solos are fast; don't try to convince anyone or yourself that they aren't.


.....spoken like a true metal head....LOL....!!!! I just love the arrogance of youth.

I don't think Shadow Hawk was trying to sound "metal," I think he was trying to sound "not-bluesy."
#26
Quote by revtfunk
I don't think Shadow Hawk was trying to sound "metal,"
I checked the original post and that is the case. However, metal and hard rock solos are fast. There's speed in every genre. Musicians have been playing fast for centuries.

Don't comment on my age. I'm going to be 22 in slightly less than a month. I have every legal right you have except not having to pay $5804789750375984758459 in insurance to rent a car. Don't think for a second that your age gives you superior intellect to me.

Edit: Why don't people here understand English? I'm not sure how one can misinterpret what I said, but I'll break it down. I quoted a post that said, "I don't think Shadow Hawk was trying to sound "metal." I responded with, "I checked the original post and that is the case." How can that confuse someone?
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Jan 18, 2009,
#27
What do you want your solos to sounds like? The bands you listed all play blues rock solos.
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#28
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I checked the original post and that is the case.
You sure? All I saw was "other genres".

TS, have a goal. You're not going to start sounding like anything other than a blues rock player if you only listen to blues rock. IMO, you should keep learning some more thurry, but I'm not talking so much about numbers and staves. This site is an excellent ear trainer. Learn your intervals, learn what they sound like. Start listening to other things and you'll start noticing intervallic patterns, little things you can start to use. Eventually you'll grow to understand them better and be able to really grasp what's going on.
#29
OK, bangoodcharlotte, let's go back in time a bit...

Shadow Hawk asked a question about style. I offered a helpful comment. In fact, I tried to offer some insight into what would make him become a better musician. I even expanded on a couple of the previous comments. Unless I am mistaken, that is the purpose of this forum. People ask questions and look for help. Other people respond and a community is developed. Most of the comments have been good....

grampastumpy's comment about learning the intervals.....great idea. That is exactly what SH needs to work on. You won't learn intervals by shredding!! You learn intervals by playing slowly and listening. There is A LOT MORE to guitar than shredding.

I never questioned your intellect, but I question your credibility. I played my 1st gig 10 years before you were born. I have bought a house, a bunch of cars and put my daughter through college by playing the guitar. In October, I was offered an indy record deal. I have 40 students, and I play 2 to 5 nights every week in 1 of 4 different bands.

So, for you to say my suggestions are "ridiculous" only proves that you don't even know that you don't know what you are talking about.
Last edited by revtfunk at Jan 18, 2009,
#30

DON'T START SHREDDING!!! If you don't know what every note in the scale sounds like it is not going to help you play better by playing faster. Selecting the proper notes and playing them with feeling will make better music - and that's what we are supposed to be doing

Quote by bangoodcharlote
This is ridiculous. You want to play with taste, but metal solos are fast; don't try to convince anyone or yourself that they aren't.


What's really ridiculous is that some people think that you are right... anyway...

revfunk is right and listen to other genres other than hard rock and blues.

Try listening to some smooth Jazz or Flamenco. These are just a few of the many other styles that have great phrasing.

And watch out for those metal solos in some new bands because they have awful phrasing, but I'm sure you'll be able to tell the difference between sh*t and flowers...
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Last edited by allislost at Jan 19, 2009,
#31
Quote by revtfunk

DON'T START SHREDDING!!! If you don't know what every note in the scale sounds like it is not going to help you play better by playing faster. Selecting the proper notes and playing them with feeling will make better music - and that's what we are supposed to be doing


What's really ridiculous is that some people think that you are right... anyway...

revfunk is right and listen to other genres other than hard rock and blues.

Try listening to some smooth Jazz or Flamenco. These are just a few of the many other styles that have great phrasing.

And watch out for those metal solos in some new bands because they have awful phrasing, but I'm sure you'll be able to tell the difference between sh*t and flowers...


Also, bossa nova's usually have great and entirely non bluesy phrasing.
#32
To allislost and UNle.... Thank you for bringing some sense into this discussion.

The pie is huge, and has many flavors. Music is about the many flavors.

The "shred" mentality has reduced guitar to typing as fast as you can, even if you can't make words.

My final suggestion is this: Learn to play the melody to "My Love" by Paul McCartney. And, then, learn the guitar solo from that song. A lifetime of musical exploration is available in that 4 minutes of music.
#33
MODES!! mixolydian will never sound like blues rock.
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#35
Quote by revtfunk
Excuse me, but mixolydian sounds EXACTLY like blues rock.

Well thats a fail for me, i think it depends on the context of the music too though, and the chord progression being played in the key.
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#36
OK, jimi, we're gonna try something....

First, play a G7 chord. Now, really listen to it. Play it a couple of times.

Now, start at fret 5 of the D string, and play up the scale - G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G.

And, if you really want to hear something, go ahead and play the A and B notes at frets 5 and 7 on the 1st string.

That's as mixolydian as it gets...and as "blues" as it gets.

Take a couple of hours to play only that chord and only those notes in as many combinations as you can imagine.

You seem like someone who genuinely wants to be a better player. PM me and I will gladly help you see things in a whole new light...

Context and progression have nothing to do with this moment in time.......
#37
Quote by revtfunk
OK, jimi, we're gonna try something....

First, play a G7 chord. Now, really listen to it. Play it a couple of times.

Now, start at fret 5 of the D string, and play up the scale - G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G.

And, if you really want to hear something, go ahead and play the A and B notes at frets 5 and 7 on the 1st string.

That's as mixolydian as it gets...and as "blues" as it gets.

Take a couple of hours to play only that chord and only those notes in as many combinations as you can imagine.

You seem like someone who genuinely wants to be a better player. PM me and I will gladly help you see things in a whole new light...

Context and progression have nothing to do with this moment in time.......

Oh, I guess i'll have to apologies for my lack of knowledge, i'm really only just starting to learn about modes, i just thought i'd say something for the sake of it :P
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#38
Quote by revtfunk
OK, jimi, we're gonna try something....

First, play a G7 chord. Now, really listen to it. Play it a couple of times.

Now, start at fret 5 of the D string, and play up the scale - G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G.

And, if you really want to hear something, go ahead and play the A and B notes at frets 5 and 7 on the 1st string.

That's as mixolydian as it gets...and as "blues" as it gets.

Take a couple of hours to play only that chord and only those notes in as many combinations as you can imagine.

You seem like someone who genuinely wants to be a better player. PM me and I will gladly help you see things in a whole new light...

Context and progression have nothing to do with this moment in time.......
Really? I don't know, a G F vamp sounds distinctly not bluesy to me...
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Edit: Why don't people here understand English? I'm not sure how one can misinterpret what I said, but I'll break it down. I quoted a post that said, "I don't think Shadow Hawk was trying to sound "metal." I responded with, "I checked the original post and that is the case." How can that confuse someone?
The fact that the word metal is nowhere in the OP...

EDIT: Wait a minute. Yeah, I'm an idiot.

Though I guarantee my English is fine.
Last edited by grampastumpy at Jan 19, 2009,
#40
learn some new modes. they really add different flavours to your repertoire.
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