#1
According to all-guitar-chords.com this scale sounds good over a F chord. But the scale has a lot of flatted notes in it. While in F there´s only one
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#2
E double harmonic scale is a G# harmonic minor scale with a #4.

It's not that you can use every scale like a pentatonic scale.

I think it has a compositional use, but it's definitely worthless for a soloing use, but if you wanna try to be smart, then try it over an E7 chord.

The scale is basically major/minor.
It has a major 3rd and a minor 3rd, a b5 and a regular 5th and a Min7th and Maj7th.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 17, 2009,
#3
The F Major Chord contains the three notes F (Root), A (Major 3rd from F), and C (Perfect 5th from F) These three notes are in the E double harmonic scale which contains E, F, G#, A, B, C, and D#.

The Double Harmonic is a Major Scale with a flat 2nd and 6th Degrees.

I like the chord progression E, F, A min, E from some preliminary playing

Anyway, chords are taken from the notes in the scale you are playing with, not the scale the root of your chord is made of. Its a little confusing if your trying to study theory on your own, because the both use the same names.
#4
Quote by xxdarrenxx
E double harmonic scale is a G# harmonic minor scale with a #4.

It's not that you can use every scale like a pentatonic scale.

I think it has a compositional use, but it's definitely worthless for a soloing use, but if you wanna try to be smart, then try it over an E7 chord.

The scale is basically major/minor.
It has a major 3rd and a minor 3rd, a b5 and a regular 5th and a Min7th and Maj7th.


I disagree. It has a Spanishy sort of sound. I like it personally.
#5
Quote by dst127
I disagree. It has a Spanishy sort of sound. I like it personally.


That's because it can be seen as Eb Phrygian Dominant scale with a natural 7th (5th mode of the harmonic minor scale)

It doesn't have a spanish flavour at all, not if you use E as the resolving note. IF you use Eb as resolvance, then it's a spanish sound, but then ur using phrygian dominant with a natural 7.

That's not how harmony works

If you think when you resolve to an E sounds spanish, then you obviously never heard spanish music .

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#6
Quote by xxdarrenxx
E double harmonic scale is a G# harmonic minor scale with a #4.

It's not that you can use every scale like a pentatonic scale.

I think it has a compositional use, but it's definitely worthless for a soloing use, but if you wanna try to be smart, then try it over an E7 chord.

The scale is basically major/minor.
It has a major 3rd and a minor 3rd, a b5 and a regular 5th and a Min7th and Maj7th.


I think your somewhat confused. E double harmonic scale is: E, F, G#, A, B, C D#. It can work over an F chord, as it contains all the notes of the F major triad. I personally wouldn't use it over a E7 as it doesnt have a D in it.

It can often work well for a melodic choice over certain progressions (bII7 - I)
#7
Quote by isaac_bandits
I think your somewhat confused. E double harmonic scale is: E, F, G#, A, B, C D#. It can work over an F chord, as it contains all the notes of the F major triad. I personally wouldn't use it over a E7 as it doesnt have a D in it.

It can often work well for a melodic choice over certain progressions (bII7 - I)



But If you play it over an F chord, the harmony shift as F being the tonal centre and not E.

IF You play it over an E chord it's a Phrygian dominant with a natural 7th.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 18, 2009,
#8
Quote by Glavinage

Anyway, chords are taken from the notes in the scale you are playing with, not the scale the root of your chord is made of. Its a little confusing if your trying to study theory on your own, because the both use the same names.


I think that really depends on what kind of music you're playing.
#9
Quote by Don Rickles
I think that really depends on what kind of music you're playing.



no it's not.

IF you play it over different chord, the note functions change and you probably be playing another scale, cause the notes react different.

Triads are always consistent.

If the scale contains a Major 3rd and perfect 5th and b7 for instance, then playing over a dominant 7th chord yields the best result.

Because those tensions are so strong.

If the scale contains root, major third, perfect 5th and Maj7th, and you play it over a rooted m7b5 chord you will sound horribly out of key.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 18, 2009,
#10
E Double Harmonic, would be

1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7

E F G# A B C D#

At least thats how I've always seen it. Not meaning to disagree with you Darren.

I've also heard it called Gypsy a lot.

I dont think its used on a basic for harmony, because of the three consecutive chromatic tones 7 - 1 - b2

I think you could use it over an Fmaj (not 7th) chord, but as Darren said, the tonal center would than shift to F.

I also personally think the tone is Spanish-sounding

But its not Eb Phrygian Dominant nat 7th.. It can be seen as E Phrygian Dominant with a natural 7th.

I would'nt use it over E7, because of the b7 - 7 - 1 dissonances, probably more to be used over Emaj7 than E7

The F - and C resolve ress to E and B.
#11
1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7

Why would you call that "Double Harmonic"? It seems like a dumb name to me.

The point of the Harmonic Minor for example is to strengthen the dominant tonic harmonic resolve in a minor context. Hence "Harmonic" Minor.

In this "Double Harmonic" we are altering the sixth and second in the major scale?? This is insane. How does this improve the Harmonic texture of the prominant chord progressions in the major key?

The Dominant is now an altered major triad a major flat 5 chord. In E it would be B(5) D#(7) F(b2). The B to F is a tritone. This is hardly a harmonic improvement on the major scale.
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Si
#12
Quote by Galvanise69
E Double Harmonic, would be

1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7

E F G# A B C D#

At least thats how I've always seen it. Not meaning to disagree with you Darren.

I've also heard it called Gypsy a lot.

I dont think its used on a basic for harmony, because of the three consecutive chromatic tones 7 - 1 - b2

I think you could use it over an Fmaj (not 7th) chord, but as Darren said, the tonal center would than shift to F.

I also personally think the tone is Spanish-sounding

But its not Eb Phrygian Dominant nat 7th.. It can be seen as E Phrygian Dominant with a natural 7th.

I would'nt use it over E7, because of the b7 - 7 - 1 dissonances, probably more to be used over Emaj7 than E7

The F - and C resolve ress to E and B.


No you're right,

The problem here is the tonal centre. My 2nd post was indeed wrong, because I Didn't saw my error yet.

I meant to say, that what you just said, and what I said in a previous post. In my opinion it can better be seen as an E Phrygian dominant natural 7, because Phrygian dominant is the 5th mode of harmonic scale.

So that seems in my view the most closest harmonic relation ship, and to most musician's saying Phrygian dominant #7 will make the most sense I think. Especially if you wanna use it as a soloing device.

Playing over An E Maj7 might sound more odd, but it gives technically seen the most character to the scale. (Don't confuse character with "nice sounding")

Also it doesn't match up. If you play it over an F chord, then the E sound horribly out of place. I mean if the tonic/root note sound out of place, then the scale technically should start on the F note and not the E note, but theoretically it's another scale then.

If you don't take the above paragraph of me as how it is, then technically all the modes of the major scale don't make sense either. Scale are defined by relationship to the root. If the relation ship of the intervals are related to another note as tonic (F in this case) then the scale must Start on that note, to be called "F..." and not "E..."

This may seems difficult, but it is true, you can't use music theory on 1 scale, and neglect it to the other. Of course you can play it like that, but theoretically you can't call it E Double Harmonic if you use it soley over an F Chord, cause then all the intervals you play relate aurally (And thus theoretically) to F as it's tonic/root and NOT the E.


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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 18, 2009,
#13
You can play it over Fmaj, but you have to keep in mind, your tonaly basing it around F, not E. As long as you understand this, your fine.

I read a post somwhere, about melodic minor, in this sort of context.

Long story short, the person suggested Mastering improvising over chord changes with the Lydian Augmented scale, and applying that to other chords in melodic minor harmony.

Because, there are no aviod notes in melodic minor harmony.

So over a V7#11 chord, play Lydian Augemnted from the b7

On a V7alt chord, play Lydian Augmented starting from the b5

And because of the fact that there are no aviod notes, all licks sounded fine over those chords as they would over their respective Maj7#5 chords.

Of course the same thing doesnt work with major scale harmony.

It may sound strange over Emaj7, over a Emaj7b13 that scale would be a fine choice, but there are'nt a great deal of Emaj7b13's around. You;d probably more commonly use it over an Emaj7#5 using the b13 as a #5.

I'd personally call it Phrygian Dom. Nat 7th. Not #7, for a beginner player, this could lead to some horrible confusions, I remember when I was starting out I came up with this cool chord, Cmaj#7.. Needless to say, I was embarrased.

I've played around with the scale a bit, and its a nice (kinda) sounding scale, but not used a lot.

I think it sounds "middle-eastern" because, if you play a harmonic minor scale, to me, the defining note that establishes that tonality, is the Augmented 2nd interval.

i.e A B C D E F G# the F - G#

The E Double Harmonic scale contains both the Augmented 2nd from A Harmonic Minor F - G# and the Augmented 2nd from E Harmonic Minor C - D#.

Anyway, as long as were all at an understanding.
#14
Quote by xxdarrenxx
That's because it can be seen as Eb Phrygian Dominant scale with a natural 7th (5th mode of the harmonic minor scale)
Oh that makes sense then...

Harmonic minor scale = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
5th mode (Phrygian Dominant) = 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7

Harmonic is defined by raising the b7 to a natural 7. Since this scale is a mode of the harmonic minor with a b7 restored to a 7 we get the name Double Harmonic scale.

Still a misnomer since it isn't a very "Harmonic" scale.
- But then I suppose Phrygian Maj7 sounds dumb too and a little ambiguous.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Jan 18, 2009,
#15
Quote by Galvanise69
You can play it over Fmaj, but you have to keep in mind, your tonaly basing it around F, not E. As long as you understand this, your fine.

I read a post somwhere, about melodic minor, in this sort of context.

Long story short, the person suggested Mastering improvising over chord changes with the Lydian Augmented scale, and applying that to other chords in melodic minor harmony.

Because, there are no aviod notes in melodic minor harmony.

So over a V7#11 chord, play Lydian Augemnted from the b7

On a V7alt chord, play Lydian Augmented starting from the b5

And because of the fact that there are no aviod notes, all licks sounded fine over those chords as they would over their respective Maj7#5 chords.

Of course the same thing doesnt work with major scale harmony.

It may sound strange over Emaj7, over a Emaj7b13 that scale would be a fine choice, but there are'nt a great deal of Emaj7b13's around. You;d probably more commonly use it over an Emaj7#5 using the b13 as a #5.

I'd personally call it Phrygian Dom. Nat 7th. Not #7, for a beginner player, this could lead to some horrible confusions, I remember when I was starting out I came up with this cool chord, Cmaj#7.. Needless to say, I was embarrased.

I've played around with the scale a bit, and its a nice (kinda) sounding scale, but not used a lot.

I think it sounds "middle-eastern" because, if you play a harmonic minor scale, to me, the defining note that establishes that tonality, is the Augmented 2nd interval.

i.e A B C D E F G# the F - G#

The E Double Harmonic scale contains both the Augmented 2nd from A Harmonic Minor F - G# and the Augmented 2nd from E Harmonic Minor C - D#.

Anyway, as long as were all at an understanding.


I know right;

But the scale is called F something then. not E double harmonic

The tonal centre of F makes it different then.

If your using the notes of C major, but your using the tonal centre of D it's Dorian.

Even in soloing, like the bebop scale or melodic minor. You always use that scale over the tonic chord of the same scale.

C melodic minor played over Cmin/Maj7th and D Mixolydian over D7.

Ur not gonna use D Mixolydian over E7 or something.

Likewise if you play D Mixolydian over an D7 Chord, according to the all the theories in this thread, I can call that E lydian too (same notes, but played over the chord built on the 2nd scale interval).

You get What I'm saying?

It doesn't make sense to Call the scale E double harmonic if you're gonna use F (2nd scale interval) as the tonal centre

Like I said, aurally it works, but theoretically ur playing another scale. All those notes MUST work over an E chord to be called that scale. Just like all the notes of C Major work over an C chord and all the notes of C Mixolydian work over a C7 chord.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 18, 2009,
#16
Quote by 08L1V10N
According to all-guitar-chords.com this scale sounds good over a F chord. But the scale has a lot of flatted notes in it. While in F there´s only one

In F, well there's only 2 flattened degrees (not notes - be careful) in F DH. Yes, in F Major Scale, B is a flat "note" but not a flat degree. It is a perfect degree.

Essentially, Double Harmonic is major, cuz it retains the major 3rd and (second in importance) the major 7th.

Loop a Fmaj7 chord, then play this scale, hit the avoid notes. Hopefully you'll evoke the sound of a Fmaj7b13 chord, or Fmaj7#5b9, depending on how you want to look at it, whichever way is easier for you man. In terms of naming the chords, it depends on context really.

It's not really used in Western music tbh, more in Indian music.
Last edited by mdc at Jan 18, 2009,
#17
Quote by mdc
In F, well there's only 2 flattened degrees (not notes - be careful). Yes, B is a flat "note" but not a flat degree. It is a perfect degree.

Essentially, Double Harmonic is major, cuz it retains the major 3rd and (second in importance) the major 7th.

Loop a Fmaj7 chord, then play this scale, hit the avoid notes. Hopefully you'll evoke the sound of a Fmaj7b13 chord.

It's not really used in Western music tbh, more in Indian music.


It's not used in Indian music.

Indian carnatic & Indian classical music uses a whole different system all together, with totally different rules. The system is far more developed and complex then our western system.

For one they use "other notes" not definable in our system, and second they have different rules for ascending and descending.

Also they can only play certain notes in certain raga''s and in a kind of ABA form they also have to use certain notes and contour's in A or B.

A raga can be easiest described as a musical mode and wiki has a list of 167 raga's (but there are more then that )

yes 167 musical modes with differnt rules in ascending and descending, and which notes to use when.

A simple scale is like totally discriminating their musical system.

Srry my neighbour is a Singh and he explained and let me listen to different raga's, so that's why i'm so Biased, so no offence k?

All our music theory combined is like 2/10 on a scale in comparison to the complexity of indian music.

Their music is religous and is like shaolin master who teach martial arts. Very hard to master and to learn.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 18, 2009,
#18
^ K. I'm just gonna stick to my A Minor Pentatonic.