#1
So yesterday I started taking Guitar lessons again but from a different teacher. So when i got in his office he started asking me about the music I liked. I was like well Megadeth, Racer X, Paul Gilbert, Marty Friedman, Jason Becker, Malmsteen, Steve Vai. And then I noticed he had a few pictures of Shawn Lane and himself playing and going to a basketball game. And as soon as he had heard that I liked Paul Gilbert he said "Oh yeah hes really nice." and I was like "....you know him?!?!" He then said he took guitar lessons from Shawn Lane for many years and the two were pretty good friends and Gilbert used to come play guitar with Lane and they would all hang out. I thought that was awesome! But onto my question! He gave me a peice of paper that had an example of every mode of the major scale. He said it was most important to just memorize the shape of each scale. So would i play the same shape at any postion and it would be in key?
My Gear
Jackson Pro Series DK2M
Epiphone Les Paul Custom
VOX AD50VTXL Valvetronix Amp
Dunlop Crybaby From Hell


Originally Posted By iron_maiden93

He wants to rape us....He raped me


#2
Quote by Avengethedeath
So yesterday I started taking Guitar lessons again but from a different teacher. So when i got in his office he started asking me about the music I liked. I was like well Megadeth, Racer X, Paul Gilbert, Marty Friedman, Jason Becker, Malmsteen, Steve Vai. And then I noticed he had a few pictures of Shawn Lane and himself playing and going to a basketball game. And as soon as he had heard that I liked Paul Gilbert he said "Oh yeah hes really nice." and I was like "....you know him?!?!" He then said he took guitar lessons from Shawn Lane for many years and the two were pretty good friends and Gilbert used to come play guitar with Lane and they would all hang out. I thought that was awesome! But onto my question! He gave me a peice of paper that had an example of every mode of the major scale. He said it was most important to just memorize the shape of each scale. So would i play the same shape at any postion and it would be in key?



Why don't you just ask him ? He is your teacher, Im sure he wouldn't mind clarifying the assignment for you.
#3
id learn them in key.
Whats the longest word?


Quote by timzee117
smiles

because theres a mile between the two s's!


/killme
#4
Yeah I now but we were pushing time as it was yesterday and he had another student waiting.
My Gear
Jackson Pro Series DK2M
Epiphone Les Paul Custom
VOX AD50VTXL Valvetronix Amp
Dunlop Crybaby From Hell


Originally Posted By iron_maiden93

He wants to rape us....He raped me


#5
They're moveable patterns. That's why he's telling you to memorize that pattern, or shape.
#6
id say give him a phone call and ask him...any guitar teacher would be happy to have a dedicated student who calls to clarify, rather than someone who doesnt do his assignments
'I love her, but I love to fish...I'm gonna miss her"
#7
Do you know the major scale in every key, all over the fretboard, as well as the theory behind it? If not, I have no idea why he's having you "learn the modes" (and I put that in quotes because he's not actually teaching you what modes are or how to use them).
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#8
why does this remind of a letter sent into Guitar World magazine tech support, where the guy is telling a story of how he brings his wife to all his gigs, but gets the feeling she is cheating on him while he plays. so he hides behind his amp, notices his wife with some guy, as his eyes follow her he see's the back of his amp. the next line was "is it alright for my tubes to be glowing?"

if you are unsure, ask your teacher. but as they are moveable shapes, learn them in one position and then move it around, that is the equivelent of learning the positions in all keys.
Quote by coolstoryangus
Pffffffft schematics


Although i guess the OP will have to get used to reading them if he's going to buy a bugera..
Quote by gregs1020


along with fire escape routes...

#9
Quote by Avengethedeath
So yesterday I started taking Guitar lessons again but from a different teacher. So when i got in his office he started asking me about the music I liked. I was like well Megadeth, Racer X, Paul Gilbert, Marty Friedman, Jason Becker, Malmsteen, Steve Vai. And then I noticed he had a few pictures of Shawn Lane and himself playing and going to a basketball game. And as soon as he had heard that I liked Paul Gilbert he said "Oh yeah hes really nice." and I was like "....you know him?!?!" He then said he took guitar lessons from Shawn Lane for many years and the two were pretty good friends and Gilbert used to come play guitar with Lane and they would all hang out. I thought that was awesome! But onto my question! He gave me a peice of paper that had an example of every mode of the major scale. He said it was most important to just memorize the shape of each scale. So would i play the same shape at any postion and it would be in key?



Just learn the patterns like he told you, and then let him guide you lesson by lesson. Just the patterns alone will take you more than a week to truly memorize. Im sure he'll teach you to understand the theory behind them and what context to use them in. Give it time. You don't learn the big picture in one lesson. One thing at a time....

1st lesson ...... learn the patterns
next lesson...... see where he takes you

what you're going to get here mostly is opinions ( of people likely less experienced than your teacher), and criticism's from the usual know it alls that are just waiting for an opportunity to look down there noses at something.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jan 18, 2009,
#10
Quote by GuitarMunky
what you're going to get here mostly is opinions ( of people likely less experienced than your teacher), and criticism's from the usual know it alls that are just waiting for an opportunity to look down there noses at something.


Yeah, somehow I'd be surprised if a guy who played with Lane and Gilbert a lot(well assuming he did) is gonna just throw him the shapes and be done with it.

TS, what do you mean by "So would i play the same shape at any postion and it would be in key?"
#11
what you're going to get here mostly is opinions ( of people likely less experienced than your teacher), and criticism's from the usual know it alls that are just waiting for an opportunity to look down there noses at something.


I like how anybody that disagrees with you for any reason is just looking for an excuse to "look down their nose". Do you have any words of wisdom for someone who's tired of actually having to respond to his opponent's arguments? I like this idea of all my enemies being elitist bastards.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#12
Quote by Archeo Avis
I like how anybody that disagrees with you for any reason is just looking for an excuse to "look down their nose". Do you have any words of wisdom for someone who's tired of actually having to respond to his opponent's arguments? I like this idea of all my enemies being elitist bastards.



Not anyone, just you.


Aww c'mon man, you can't give advice without putting someone else down and you know it.
#13
TS, what do you mean by "So would i play the same shape at any postion and it would be in key?"


What i mean is if i was to play this same shape or pattern at any fret would it be in the correct key?

Ex.
l---l---l---l---l-0-l---l-0-l-0-l---l---l---l---l---l---l
l---l---l---l---l-0-l---l-0-l-0-l---l---l---l---l---l---l
l---l---l---l-0-l-0-l---l-0-l---l---l---l---l---l---l---l
l---l---l---l-0-l-0-l---l-0-l---l---l---l---l---l---l---l
l---l---l-0-l---l-0-l---l-0-l---l---l---l---l---l---l---l
l---l---l-0-l---l-0-l---l-0-l---l---l---l---l---l---l---l

This is the patern im learning. Its played at the third fret. If I played this exact pattern at the fifth fret or the sixth or eighth for example would it still be an Ionian scale?
My Gear
Jackson Pro Series DK2M
Epiphone Les Paul Custom
VOX AD50VTXL Valvetronix Amp
Dunlop Crybaby From Hell


Originally Posted By iron_maiden93

He wants to rape us....He raped me


#14
^That depends on what the root note is. The scale shape you are using does not define the mode you are in.

However, if you use the first note you play as the root, when you play around the 3rd fret with this shape you will be playing in G ionian/major, but moving the shape up to the 5th fret and still playing around the 1st note of the shape will result in A ionian/major.
A metal band?
Gear:
A Guitar with an LFR > Korg Pitchblack > Behringer EQ > Hardwire CM-2 Overdrive Boss SD-1 > Hardwire CR-7 Chorus>
Orange Tiny Terror >
LzR Engineering 212 cab

My other amp can run Crysis
#15
Quote by Avengethedeath
What i mean is if i was to play this same shape or pattern at any fret would it be in the correct key?

Ex.
l---l---l---l---l-0-l---l-0-l-0-l---l---l---l---l---l---l
l---l---l---l---l-0-l---l-0-l-0-l---l---l---l---l---l---l
l---l---l---l-0-l-0-l---l-0-l---l---l---l---l---l---l---l
l---l---l---l-0-l-0-l---l-0-l---l---l---l---l---l---l---l
l---l---l-0-l---l-0-l---l-0-l---l---l---l---l---l---l---l
l---l---l-0-l---l-0-l---l-0-l---l---l---l---l---l---l---l

This is the patern im learning. Its played at the third fret. If I played this exact pattern at the fifth fret or the sixth or eighth for example would it still be an Ionian scale?


It will be a new key in each position. For instance right there you are in the key of G major, but if you played that same pattern starting on the 8th fret you would be in C Major.
#17
I'd agree with Freepower. The theory behind it will be explained along with it's use as the lessons progress... but perhaps archeo will disagree
#19
Aww c'mon man, you can't give advice without putting someone else down and you know it.


Show me where I "put someone down". Quote me.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#21
Quote by Peaceful Rocker
Thats hardly necessary, you act like an asshole on this forum.

everyone knows that


Yes, but that's not what we're arguing about. He made a very specific statement (far more specific than "you're an ass"), and I expect him to back it up.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#23
Quote by Freepower
You're such an ass, Archeo.

Leave it be for once, butthurt though you may be.


Why should I ignore personal attacks directed towards me, especially when the person making them is, himself, accusing me of personal attack? If I made a statement like his, Munky would throw a bitch fit (and has, on several occasions).
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#25
Fun as this thread is, I'm not sure anybody has answered the TC's question directly...

The pattern you've been playing...

|---|---|---|---|-0-|---|-0-|-0-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|-0-|---|-0-|-0-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|-0-|-0-|---|-0-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|-0-|-0-|---|-0-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|-0-|---|-0-|---|-0-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|-0-|---|-0-|---|-0-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|


...is the G Ionian scale. If you move the whole thing up two frets so that it starts on the 5th rather than the third...

|---|---|---|---|---|---|-0-|---|-0-|-0-|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|-0-|---|-0-|-0-|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|-0-|-0-|---|-0-|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|-0-|-0-|---|-0-|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|-0-|---|-0-|---|-0-|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|-0-|---|-0-|---|-0-|---|---|---|---|---|


...then you have the A Ionian scale. It really is that easy
#26
Quote by Archeo Avis
Why should I ignore personal attacks directed towards me, especially when the person making them is, himself, accusing me of personal attack? If I made a statement like his, Munky would throw a bitch fit (and has, on several occasions).


I'm not saying ignore it, I'm saying don't poke him with a stick. Besides, the reason you should generally ignore these things is because it profits nobody. If I know you, you will not change your opinion of yourself or Munky based on anything I can reasonably expect him to say, and Munky won't change his opinions either.

You aren't going to get an apology from him, and at best all you'll get is a huge argument. You must be able to see that, intelligent as you are. Perhaps you can learn to avoid that conflict before it happens and save yourself time and bilous discourse?
#27
Quote by Freepower
I'm not saying ignore it, I'm saying don't poke him with a stick. Besides, the reason you should generally ignore these things is because it profits nobody. If I know you, you will not change your opinion of yourself or Munky based on anything I can reasonably expect him to say, and Munky won't change his opinions either.

You aren't going to get an apology from him, and at best all you'll get is a huge argument. You must be able to see that, intelligent as you are. Perhaps you can learn to avoid that conflict before it happens and save yourself time and bilous discourse?


It's not intelligent to throw random bitch fits just like that.

A Knowledgeable person and Intelligent person are 2 different things.

if they were the same, then a person with knowledge about different **** used to ferment the grounds in farming would be intelligent too. Since probably no rocket scientist knows what **** too use.

Intelligence is objectivity and solving problems and the speed and creativity in which you do that. This is personal and thus based on emotions, so it's not intelligent but rather dumb.

Also it doesn't SOLVE ts's problem in any fast or creative way (objectively seen).

Ignore rant, cause ur emotional state will probably fight it back.

Also no sad attempt to be objective just to show my place, it's not hard to see right through that.

Now that ****'s out of the way;

To TS

I think it's pretty obvious why he wants you to learn those patterns (Since i'm a guitar teacher I get his mindset behind it).

The patterns are the tools in this case, and in an upcoming lesson he will explain how to use those tools.

I mean if he went to teach you for let's say Lydian in a lesson and he says the scale degrees, it would cost you maybe an entire lesson to finally fluidly play those notes (hence the patterns).

This saves times, cause your fingers will get the "insight" around the fretboard, so the teacher can efficiently learn you about the "characteristics" of the modes, without wasting time on getting ur fingers to failsafe hitting the notes in a fluid matter.

Just like in building something, if the build teacher would teach you to saw a plank, he'd first had to spend time explaining how to use the saw, where if you know how the saw works, he can go in depth on how to saw the plank.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 19, 2009,
#28
He taught you the Ionian mode, cool I learned these by watching a guy on the net run through all the modes Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the pattern for each can fit any major scale unless your starting your root note on any string other than Low E. He probably wants you to learn these right of so you can locate and play any mode in any given scale, giving you know your key signatures and all which I don't oh well. You can always look them up and then plug them in to the right mode. haha. It's amazing how many progressive players learn these modes so diligantly.
Last edited by rebel624 at Jan 19, 2009,
#29
Quote by rebel624
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the pattern for each can fit any major scale unless your starting your root note on any string other than Low E.


Um, that doesn't really make much sense to me. I'd have to say since it's so
confused, it's pretty much wrong.

TS: I suspect you're mangling what your teacher is trying to teach you in your
question here. Modes aren't patterns on the fretboard, but in a sense you can
label each major scale position as a mode just as a label. I'd probably avoid doing
that as it's likely to be more confusing than helpful, but there's not any other
context to your lesson we'd know about.

And, just because someone took lessons with someone and "hung" out with them
doesn't confer magical abilities on them. LOL. Doesn't mean they're bad at what
they do, or good either. It's simply irrelevant to anything here.
#30
I meant the same mode pattern will work on any given scale. For instance you can play Ionian pattern he learned on the 3rd fret resulting in G Ionian or you can move it to say 7th fret and play B Ionian scale etc. Same works for the following modes if you were in Dorian on the 5th fret it would be an A minor from G major scale and Dorian on the 9th fret would be C# minor from the B major scale, and we all should know Dorian is a minor mode. You can not move that whole pattern down a string, because the scale degrees will be wrong.
#32
Modes do share pattern relations. There are so many different patterns it's hard to remember. As you take your root note down a string you will realize change in patterns but they the pattern you find on resulting from going down a string can be applied to to the same mode of a different scale all along the fretboard on that particular string.
#33
In 3nps method which is what it seems is being discussed here contains seven different patterns. Each pattern starts with the lowest note being the next one along the scale.

So in key of E major the first pattern might be with the open E as the lowest note. The 2nd pattern uses the next note in the E major key as the lowest note - F# (E string 2nd fret) the 3rd pattern uses G# as the lowest note, the 4th uses A, the 5th B, the 6th C#and the lowest note in the 7th 3nps pattern shape in key of E major would use D# as the lowest note (E string 10th fret.

Since each pattern starts on a different scale degree of the major scale they are often named after and described as "modes" of the major scale. People then run around saying things like I learned the modes of the major scale. Or they believe that when they switch positions they are playing modally, or that when someone says this piece is Lydian they think that means playing the 4th 3nps major scale pattern.

If this is what your teacher is telling you then I don't really care who he has photos with or learned from maybe next time he should stop name dropping and do what you're paying him to do - teach you properly.

It could of course simply be that you are not understanding what your teacher is teaching you completely and are mis-communicating the ideas back here and I'm getting completely the wrong end of the stick. In which case - I apologise to your teacher.

Of course there's no reason to learn things wrong only to have to relearn them correctly later. So...
The 7 patterns are not modes. They are simply patterns that show you the major scale across the whole neck. These patterns in particular are worked out by breaking the major scale across the whole neck into smaller more manageable chunks.

The major scale has seven different pitch classes (scale degrees). So to break up the major scale across the whole neck one method is to use each scale degree as a starting point. Then we find the next two notes in the scale along the same string giving us three notes on that string. Then we find the next 3 scale degrees on the next string down. Then move down another string to find the next 3 scale degrees etc.

The result is...
3nps 1st and 2nd Pattern in [B]Key of C[/B]
e|---|---|-D-|---|-E-|-F-|    This is the 1st pattern.  You see we started with C as the lowest note
b|---|---|-A-|---|-B-|-C-|    on the 8th fret of the low E string.  Each string contains 3notes of  
g|---|-E-|-F-|---|-G-|---|    the scale and the scale just carries on from string to string without
D|---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|---|    missing a note.
A|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|
E|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|---|
   ↑               ↑
   8th fret        12th fret
   ↓               ↓
e|---|---|---|---|-E-|-F-|---|-G-|    This is the next pattern in the key of C.  As you can see, again,
b|---|---|---|---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|    we use 3 notes for every string.  An we work our way note
g|---|---|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|    by note through the scale from string to string.  This time
D|---|---|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|---|    the lowest note is D (the second note in the C major scale).
A|---|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|-B-|---|
E|---|---|-D-|---|-E-|-F-|---|---|
           ↑
           10th fret

The third position would start on E as the lowest note and work through the same scale
notes sticking to 3 per string.  The fourth position would start with F as the lowest note. etc etc etc.

Of course these will only be in the key of C when the correct pattern is played from the 
correct starting point.  For example the first pattern above is only in the key of C when 
it starts from the 8th fret on the low E string (the C note)


Now some people like to call the first pattern I listed C Ionian. They do this because it uses the notes of the C major scale starting on C. Those same people would then call the second shape Dorian mode because it uses the same notes of the C major scale - this time starting on D.

This is a misleading way to name these shapes. They are not modes. They are all the C major scale. Likewise they are all D Dorian E Phrygian etc etc depending on the way in which they are applied musically. These shapes are simply ways of breaking down the major scale (which spans the entire fretboard) into manageable chunks.

It would be more accurate to number them. Think of them as the 3nps major scale from the 1st degree, from the 2nd degree etc.

These seven modes all fit together in the way I described above (they start on a different degree of the major scale and so the 1st is always before the 2nd no matter what key. If you take the scale patterns I showed you above and moved them all down three frets then you would have the first two positions of the major scale in the key of A.

All that being said, practice and memorize the patterns like your teacher told you to.

Best of Luck
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Jan 19, 2009,
#34
Quote by 20Tigers
In 3nps method which is what it seems is being discussed here contains seven different patterns. Each pattern starts with the lowest note being the next one along the scale.

So in key of E major the first pattern might be with the open E as the lowest note. The 2nd pattern uses the next note in the E major key as the lowest note - F# (E string 2nd fret) the 3rd pattern uses G# as the lowest note, the 4th uses A, the 5th B, the 6th C#and the lowest note in the 7th 3nps pattern shape in key of E major would use D# as the lowest note (E string 10th fret.

Since each pattern starts on a different scale degree of the major scale they are often named after and described as "modes" of the major scale. People then run around saying things like I learned the modes of the major scale. Or they believe that when they switch positions they are playing modally, or that when someone says this piece is Lydian they think that means playing the 4th 3nps major scale pattern.

If this is what your teacher is telling you then I don't really care who he has photos with or learned from maybe next time he should stop name dropping and do what you're paying him to do - teach you properly.

It could of course simply be that you are not understanding what your teacher is teaching you completely and are mis-communicating the ideas back here and I'm getting completely the wrong end of the stick. In which case - I apologise to your teacher.

Of course there's no reason to learn things wrong only to have to relearn them correctly later. So...
The 7 patterns are not modes. They are simply patterns that show you the major scale across the whole neck. These patterns in particular are worked out by breaking the major scale across the whole neck into smaller more manageable chunks.

The major scale has seven different pitch classes (scale degrees). So to break up the major scale across the whole neck one method is to use each scale degree as a starting point. Then we find the next two notes in the scale along the same string giving us three notes on that string. Then we find the next 3 scale degrees on the next string down. Then move down another string to find the next 3 scale degrees etc.

The result is...
3nps 1st and 2nd Pattern in [B]Key of C[/B]
e|---|---|-D-|---|-E-|-F-| This is the 1st pattern. You see we started with C as the lowest note
b|---|---|-A-|---|-B-|-C-| on the 8th fret of the low E string. Each string contains 3notes of
g|---|-E-|-F-|---|-G-|---| the scale and the scale just carries on from string to string without
D|---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|---| missing a note.
A|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|
E|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|---|
↑ ↑
8th fret 12th fret
↓ ↓
e|---|---|---|---|-E-|-F-|---|-G-| This is the next pattern in the key of C. As you can see, again,
b|---|---|---|---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-| we use 3 notes for every string. An we work our way note
g|---|---|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---| by note through the scale from string to string. This time
D|---|---|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|---| the lowest note is D (the second note in the C major scale).
A|---|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|-B-|---|
E|---|---|-D-|---|-E-|-F-|---|---|

10th fret

The third position would start on E as the lowest note and work through the same scale
notes sticking to 3 per string. The fourth position would start with F as the lowest note. etc etc etc.

Of course these will only be in the key of C when the correct pattern is played from the
correct starting point. For example the first pattern above is only in the key of C when
it starts from the 8th fret on the low E string (the C note)


Now some people like to call the first pattern I listed C Ionian. They do this because it uses the notes of the C major scale starting on C. Those same people would then call the second shape Dorian mode because it uses the same notes of the C major scale - this time starting on D.

This is a misleading way to name these shapes. They are not modes. They are all the C major scale. Likewise they are all D Dorian E Phrygian etc etc depending on the way in which they are applied musically. These shapes are simply ways of breaking down the major scale (which spans the entire fretboard) into manageable chunks.

It would be more accurate to number them. Think of them as the 3nps major scale from the 1st degree, from the 2nd degree etc.

These seven modes all fit together in the way I described above (they start on a different degree of the major scale and so the 1st is always before the 2nd no matter what key. If you take the scale patterns I showed you above and moved them all down three frets then you would have the first two positions of the major scale in the key of A.

All that being said, practice and memorize the patterns like your teacher told you to.

Best of Luck


How is it misleading to call them a dorian or ionian pattern? Its like a basic C Ionian pattern and basic D Dorian pattern. If we didn't lable that D pattern D Dorian, there would be no use for modes. If we just called it a Cmajor scale starting on the 2nd note as the root that would lead to confusion. Calling this a D Dorian scale really keeps things organized and It also lets you know that your in the scale of Cmajor.

With an understanding that D Dorian isn't the same as a Dmajor scale and it is just a mode in the C major scale there should be no misunderstandings.
Last edited by rebel624 at Jan 20, 2009,
#35
Quote by rebel624
How is it misleading to call them a dorian or ionian pattern? Its like a basic C Ionian pattern and basic D Dorian pattern. If we didn't lable that D pattern D Dorian, there would be no use for modes.
That's exactly my point. Teaching the patterns that way leads new students to crazy conclusions like, if you didn't call a box shape a mode then there are no use for modes.

A mode is a collection of intervals in relation to a tonal centre.
Dorian is the collection of the following intervals 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Specifically D Dorian is D E F G A B C. When D is clearly defined as the tone to which all the other tones are related to through the use of a pedal bass, vamp on Dm, or modal progression then wherever we play these notes (D E F G A B C) on the fretboard we are playing D Dorian. What's confusing is when you need to start shifting away from the 3nps pattern starting on the 8th fret the one you want to call D Dorian and shift to the pattern you call F Lydian.

How is it really "keeping things organized" when a student thinks they are playing F Lydian only to find out they are actually playing D Dorian and F Lydian has nothing to do with what is happening musically? But, they say, this is what my teacher told me F Lydian was... ...now you're telling me it's D Dorian - what's going on here

All seven of the shapes are C Ionian.
All seven of the shapes are D Dorian.
All seven of the shapes are E Phrygian.
All seven of the shapes are F Lydian.
All seven of the shapes are G Mixolydian.
All seven of the shapes are A Aeolian.
All seven of the shapes are B Locrian.

Save modes and modal terms for when they mean what they are supposed to mean. Avoid confusing students who don't know better and don't teach them silly ideas like a pattern is a mode. A mode is more than a pattern.

The 3nps patterns are not, of themselves, modal. They are simply a method of breaking down the major scale over the entire fretboard into smaller more manageable chunks. This is a fact. From this it stands to reason that we learn them as exactly that - small chunks of the same major scale - not as separate modes.

Quote by rebel624
If we just called it a Cmajor scale starting on the 2nd note as the root that would lead to confusion. Calling this a D Dorian scale really keeps things organized and It also lets you know that your in the scale of Cmajor.

With an understanding that D Dorian isn't the same as a Dmajor scale and it is just a mode in the C major scale there should be no misunderstandings.

I never said that the starting note was the root. In order for the patterns to be modal then you would learn D as the root for D Dorian E as the root for E Phrygian etc. I said you would think of the pattern as starting on the 2nd degree of the major scale. Thus by definition the 2nd degree is not the root - in fact it is the note in the scale right after the root.

If you learn all these 7 patterns as patterns of the major scale, rather than individual modes, then you would view C as the root in ALL the patterns. This would help tremendously when you later go to apply the patterns. The student would not wonder things like "Do I shift each pattern to make C the root in order to play them in the key of C?" or some other such idea that comes from them thinking they are switching "modes" when they switch positions. (believe me this is a popular misunderstanding).

Save D Dorian and the gang for when you teach the student what modes truly are and how to use them properly.

When you're teaching them the major scale for the first time they are NOT ready to understand what modes are yet. Giving them misleading information by teaching them that modes are specific box patterns is not good for them and will lead to confusion later on.

I believe at least 50% of the confusion regarding modes I've come across in this forum is directly related to people being taught that modes are different positions of the major scale then when they get into learning what modes actually are all about they get confused trying to reconcile the differences and have trouble grasping it.

I hope that clears things up for you?
If you really think there is no use for D Dorian outside labelling the 2nd position three-note-per-string major scale pattern then I'm afraid you don't know what modes are anyway so you might not even get this post.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Jan 20, 2009,