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#1
Firstly are maj7 chords names like that because they are referring to a chord with a major 7 added? What if it was a FmMaj7 does that exist?

Also why are 9th chords not called 2nd? Okay they are Enharmonic but dont have to be higher i pitch. It says in the theory guide they just are or something along those lines

Thirdly i watched a video where a teacher said Scales and Keys are the same thing. I thought this was a weird definition considering scales other than basic major and minor.

Finally, if suspended chords are neither major or minor, how can they fit into keys?
Last edited by DegaMeth at Jan 19, 2009,
#2
I believe (but not sure, someone verify) that a maj7 is a major triad with a major seventh. So no, you couldn't have a FmMaj7.

For the second question, a 9th is one octave higher than a 2nd.

Scales and Keys aren't the same thing, knowing what key a song is in well help you figure out what scale to use over it.
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#3
First off I don think FmMaj7 exist. Secondly A major 7th chord (i.e. Amaj7) has the same notes as Amaj with the addition of the seventh note in the scale.

Example: Amaj is most easily constructed from the A maj scale. You take the 1st-3rd-5th to create Amaj. To create Amaj7 we simply add the SEVENTH note of the scale, or G#.

Amaj= A,C#,E
Amaj7=A,C#,E, and G#.

You can do this to any tri-chord. Enjoy, and check out Joshurban and "The Crusade" its a great string of article on theory.
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#4
You are correct. A maj7 means that the 7 is not flatted as it is for a regular 7 chord. An FmMaj7 does exist. It just means that the 3rd is flatted for the minor, however the 7 is natural and is not flatted. It's an Fm chord with a Maj7. Does that make sense, guys?

9th chords... When we refer to a 2 chord, or Sus2, it means that the 3rd has been changed to the 2nd degree. This means that the chord is no longer minor or major. The same applies to a 4 chord, or sus4. The 3rd has been raised to the 4th degree and the chord is no longer minor or major. Sus chords usually want to resolve to something else, like the major or minor. A 9 chord still has the 3rd, or a flatted 3rd. Also, I should've mentioned that a 9 chord will also have the b7. If it just has the 9 and the 7 is not being played, then we have, for example, an Fadd9, or a Cadd9. For the Cadd9, play the regular open C and then use your pinky to play the D at the 3rd fret, 2nd string.

Sus chords are usually non-diatonic - at least in the scales I'm familiar with. They fit in like any other non-diatonic chord - they simply sound good or sound like they belong. Try playing a song and then toss in a sus4 chord and resolve it back down to the major chord. Sounds nice. Same with a sus2.
Last edited by KG6_Steven at Jan 19, 2009,
#5
1. Yes, minor Major 7ths do exist. You can have a C minor with the major 7th. Typically a Cm7 would be C Eb G Bb but if you make that B a natural it becomes the major 7th. So you get a Cm with a Major 7th. (C major 7 being C E G B)

2. They are called 2nds if they are not an octave above. Usually with a 9th chord, the "2nd" note is played an octave above. There is a pretty big difference between the 9th chord and the 2nd, they have different feelings. Both can be extremely emotional chords when used as a suspension, for example.

3. A C major scale has no sharpes or flats, just like it's key signature. G major has an F#, just like it's key signature. A major is F# C# and G#, which are the sharpened notes in the scale. So yeah, in a way, one could say they are the same thing in some contexts.

4. When you suspend chords you can make them major or a minor. You can have a minor 4-3. For example, in C major:

C E F G going to C E G (4-3)
or in C minor:

C Eb F G going to C Eb G

which is still a 4-3 suspension, just in the minor chord.
Last edited by ChrisBG at Jan 19, 2009,
#6
I play piano and I always assumed Ninth chords are not called seconds because to play the actual second note of the scale along with the root, third, and fifth, tends to sound more messy than the actual ninth. As far as I know, it simply adds definition and clarity.
#7
Yes I believe you can have a minor major seventh chord. They are typically used in jazz. It consists of the root note, a minor third, then a major third then another major third.
#8
Quote by DegaMeth
Firstly are maj7 chords names like that because they are referring to a chord with a major 7 added? What if it was a FmMaj7 does that exist?

Also why are 9th chords not called 2nd? Okay they are Enharmonic but dont have to be higher i pitch. It says in the theory guide they just are or something along those lines.

Thirdly i watched a video where a teacher said Scales and Keys are the same thing. I thought this was a weird definition considering scales other than basic major and minor.


See the second post for the 9th question. As far as scale and keys being the same, that kinda true: chords are comprised of notes of a scale and knowing what scale that is can tell you what the key of the song is. Have you studied up on the circle of 5ths?
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#9
Quote by TheGallowsPole
I believe (but not sure, someone verify) that a maj7 is a major triad with a major seventh. So no, you couldn't have a FmMaj7.

For the second question, a 9th is one octave higher than a 2nd.

Scales and Keys aren't the same thing, knowing what key a song is in well help you figure out what scale to use over it.


This is correct. The key for example might be C minor, but over that you could sue a melodic, natural or harmonic minor, as well as a dorian mode or minor pentatonic. SO whilst they are related, the key and scale are not the same thing.
#10
Quote by gizmodious
First off I don think FmMaj7 exist. Secondly A major 7th chord (i.e. Amaj7) has the same notes as Amaj with the addition of the seventh note in the scale.

Example: Amaj is most easily constructed from the A maj scale. You take the 1st-3rd-5th to create Amaj. To create Amaj7 we simply add the SEVENTH note of the scale, or G#.

Amaj= A,C#,E
Amaj7=A,C#,E, and G#.

You can do this to any tri-chord. Enjoy, and check out Joshurban and "The Crusade" its a great string of article on theory.


But why not just call it A7 because A7 has A Csharp E and G in it
#11
Maj7 chords are indeed named for that reason. It must be a major third, and a major seventh, along with the root and the fifth, of course. as for FmMaj7, you could make chord with a minor third and a major seventh, but it will sound very tense and possibly just bad. it may have limited application, but it's not a standard chord, really.

9th chords just sound too different from sus2 chords to refer to them as the same thing. because the 2 is so close to the usual low root note, it sounds more dissonant than the 9, which is over an octave higher than your low root note. both are legitimate chords, and in terms of the math involved, they are the same notes, but they sound quite different because of the way they each are played. 9th chords include the 7th as well, which adds to the sound. if you don't include the seventh, you have an "add9" chord

for question #3, what the teacher meant was that you use a scale to derive the chords in the corresponding key. for example, the triads you can form in the key of A minor are: Am, Bdim, C, Dm Em F G. Each one of those chords contains only notes chosen from A B C D E F and G. modes are a different proposition, and the teacher in the video was probably just generalizing. most modes sound generally major or minor anyways, so they end up getting used over those keys anyways. it's just tough to make modes work over progressions, and it's better to think of modes as a way to make an educated guess as to what accidentals will sound right within a melody.

if a chord is neither major nor minor, i think it fits in even easier than if it had a third. as long as the root note of the chord is in your scale, it has a chance of sounding good. the 2 or the 4 of certain chords may not fall into your key, but you can look at them as accidentals in some cases, or as passing notes in others. think of power chords... they are just roots and fifths, and it's easy as pie to break the rules and add chromatic stuff with power chords.

hope i've helped.
Last edited by frigginjerk at Jan 19, 2009,
#12
i believe it's a 9th chord because the 7th is also in the chord, as in: 1,3,5,7,9. it's not just a chord with ab added 2nd. another reason is because i think chords are built that way - in 3rds. so it goes 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15 (which is back to your octave)

scales and keys.. different. key refers to the key signature but you may very well use a different scale over that key signature.
#13
Quote by DegaMeth
But why not just call it A7 because A7 has A Csharp E and G in it


when a chord is called a maj7, it has a major third and a major seventh.

when a chord called a min7, it has a minor third and a minor seventh.

when a chord has a major third and a MINOR seventh, it's called a 7 chord, ie: A7, also known as a "dominant 7th" chord.

so an A7 chord would contain the notes A, C#, E, G

and and Amaj7 would contain A, C#, E, G#
Last edited by frigginjerk at Jan 19, 2009,
#14
Holy crap. Ask a question and you get 50,000 answers. A suspended chord CANNOT be major or minor. I quote:

Suspended chords
Main article: Suspended chord.
A suspended chord, or "sus chord" (sometimes improperly called sustained chord), is a chord in which the third has been displaced by either of its dissonant neighbouring notes, forming intervals of a major second or (more commonly) a perfect fourth with the root. This results in two distinct chord types: the suspended second (sus2) and the suspended fourth (sus4). The chords, Csus2 and Csus4, for example, consist of the notes C D G and C F G, respectively. Extended versions are also possible, such as the seventh suspended fourth, for example, which, with root C, contains the notes C F G B♭ and is notated as C7sus4 play (help·info). Csus4 is sometimes written Csus since the sus4 is more common than the sus2.

The name suspended derives from an early voice leading technique developed during the common practice period of composition, in which an anticipated stepwise melodic progression to a harmonically stable note in any particular part (voice) was often momentarily delayed or suspended simply by extending the duration of the previous note. The resulting unexpected dissonance could then be all the more satisfyingly resolved by the eventual appearance of the displaced note.

In modern usage, without regard to such considerations of voice leading, the term suspended is restricted to those chords involving the displacement of the third only, and the dissonant second or fourth no longer needs to be prepared from the previous chord. Neither is it now obligatory for the displaced note to make an appearance at all. However, in the majority of occurrences of suspended chords, the conventional stepwise resolution to the third is still observed.

Note that, in traditional music theory, the inclusion of the third in either the suspended second or suspended fourth chords negates the effect of suspension, and such chords are properly called added ninth and added eleventh chords rather than suspended chords.

A notable exception to this analysis of suspended chords occurs in jazz theory. In post-bop and modal jazz compositions and improvisations, suspended seventh chords are often used in nontraditional ways. In these contexts, they often do not function as V chords, and do not resolve the fourth to the third; the lack of resolution gives the chord an ambiguous, static quality. Indeed, the third is often played on top of a sus4 chord; in jazz theory, this doesn't negate the quality of the chord as a suspended chord. A good example is the jazz standard, Maiden Voyage.
#15
Ok, as has been said major 7th chords are major triads with an added 7th. It is possible to have a minor chord with a major 7th, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_major_seventh_chord.

Keys and scales are NOT the same thing, but you can work out the root note of a chord in a key from the note in the corresponding scale. Say for example you wanted to work out what chords were in the key of C Major, you can take the C Major scale (C D E F G A B C) and apply the formula: Major, Minor, Minor, Major, Major, Minor, Half Diminished. This would make the chords in the key of C: C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, B (half diminished).
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#16
Quote by KG6_Steven
Extended versions are also possible, such as the seventh suspended fourth, for example, which, with root C, contains the notes C F G B♭ and is notated as C7sus4 play (help·info). Csus4 is sometimes written Csus since the sus4 is more common than the sus2.


i love the 7sus4 chord. if you click the myspace link in my sig, and listen to "Cold Air" you'll hear a riff that uses a B7sus4 quite prominently.

#17
I don't understand how you can have a minor major seventh, if the definition of a maj7 is a major triad with an added 7th.

maj triad - 1 3 5
min triad - 1 b3 5
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#18
Quote by TheGallowsPole
I don't understand how you can have a minor major seventh, if the definition of a maj7 is a major triad with an added 7th.

maj triad - 1 3 5
min triad - 1 b3 5


it's an altered chord, IMO... it would be understood / read as a "minor chord with an added major seventh." but i don't know what the official notation of it would be. anyone?
#20
Quote by TheGallowsPole
I don't understand how you can have a minor major seventh, if the definition of a maj7 is a major triad with an added 7th.

maj triad - 1 3 5
min triad - 1 b3 5



Ok. This is an easy one - once you beat it into your head. lol. Don't worry, it got me when I was first learning.

Think of it this way. We have an Cm chord. 1 b3 5, or C Eb G

If we add the flatted 7 to it, we now have the Cm7 chord. 1 b3 5 b7, or C Eb G Bb

If we add the natural 7 to it, we now have the CmMaj7 chord. 1 b3 5 7, or C Eb G B

How's that? The major only refers to the quality of the 7.

Edit: Fixed the flat issue with the Cm chords.
Last edited by KG6_Steven at Jan 19, 2009,
#21
Fm+7?

Edit: Wouldn't Cm be C - Eb - G?
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Last edited by TheGallowsPole at Jan 19, 2009,
#23
Quote by TheGallowsPole
Fm+7?

Edit: Wouldn't Cm be C - Eb - G?



Good catch. Got so wrapped up trying to teach the 7/maj7 difference, that I dropped the flats. Guess I'm staying after class today.
#24
Seeing it written as FmMaj7 would make me laugh, even if the Maj referred to the tonality of the 7.

Fm + 7 tells me minor triad with an added major seventh.

Edit: Haha, it happens. Not trying to be hard headed about this or anything. Just love a good discussion.
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#25
Quote by TheGallowsPole
I don't understand how you can have a minor major seventh, if the definition of a maj7 is a major triad with an added 7th.

maj triad - 1 3 5
min triad - 1 b3 5


It's mM7, not M7. Pretty clear definition there. You are making this quite difficult.

Yes, a Cmaj7 is C E G B. Now what if you flatten that E? What would YOU call C Eb G B other than mM7? If you harmonize the Harmonic minor scale, that's the very first chord you get. However, The harmonic minor isn't used like that and it's very rare to see mM7 chords.
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Last edited by DaddyTwoFoot at Jan 19, 2009,
#26
So in what way can the 7 be major or minor? If a major 7th chord is 1 3 5 7, and a minor chord is 1 b3 5 7, the 7th note remains unaffected and therefore neither major nor minor.
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#27
To DTF: I would call it Fm+7.
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#28
Quote by TheGallowsPole
Seeing it written as FmMaj7 would make me laugh, even if the Maj referred to the tonality of the 7.

Fm + 7 tells me minor triad with an added major seventh.

Edit: Haha, it happens. Not trying to be hard headed about this or anything. Just love a good discussion.


Bingo! That was a hard one for me to wrap my head around, but after a little explanation from an expert, it became quite clear.

No problem. I'd rather put out reliable advice than to confuse someone with bad information. I have absolutely no problem going back and fixing any errors I make.
#29
Quote by Sonny_sam
So in what way can the 7 be major or minor? If a major 7th chord is 1 3 5 7, and a minor chord is 1 b3 5 7, the 7th note remains unaffected and therefore neither major nor minor.


You could have 1 3 5 b7 for a Dom7.
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#31
ah, sorry, forget my last post. I didn't realise that minor 7th chords had a flat 7th as well as 3rd, I thought it was a natural 7th
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#32
+ could also mean an augmented fifth, so Cm+7 would be C Eb G# B. mM7 is much clearer.
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#33
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
+ could also mean an augmented fifth, so Cm+7 would be C Eb G# B. mM7 is much clearer.


good point... how about Fm/add7? is that possible? or would it have to be Fm/addMaj7?

#34
Ah, I've learned something

I would write it as Fm(maj7) in that case then. Minor triad with an added major seventh. I still wouldn't say it fits the definition of a maj7 chord as I stated earlier since it removes the major triad.


FrigginJerk: I believe the slash would imply some sort of inversion, but I don't wanna get in over my head.
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Last edited by TheGallowsPole at Jan 19, 2009,
#35
Quote by Sonny_sam
So in what way can the 7 be major or minor? If a major 7th chord is 1 3 5 7, and a minor chord is 1 b3 5 7, the 7th note remains unaffected and therefore neither major nor minor.


The 7 is referred to as major when it's natural. The 7 is never referred to as minor. If we flat the 7, then it's just referred to as a 7 chord - A7, Cm7, etc... The chord quality, provided it has the 3rd or a flatted 3rd is still major or minor.

Major 7 = 1 3 5 7
Minor 7 = 1 b3 5 b7
Minor Major 7 = 1 b3 5 7

Remember, the minor part of it only refers to the 3rd, not the 7th.
#36
Quote by frigginjerk
good point... how about Fm/add7? is that possible? or would it have to be Fm/addMaj7?



I'm not sure, but I think that that would be fine. It would be complicating it though.

Edit - Oh, Gallows did catch the slash. That could be confusing. Putting the maj7 in parentheses is clearer.
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Last edited by DaddyTwoFoot at Jan 19, 2009,
#37
Isn't it only considered an add chord if its missing one of the previous necessary intervals?

Example, add9: 1-3-5-9 (no seventh)

Calling it an add7 would mean that one of those was missing.
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#38
Quote by TheGallowsPole
Ah, I've learned something

I would write it as Fm(maj7) in that case then. Minor triad with an added major seventh. I still wouldn't say it fits the definition of a maj7 chord as I stated earlier since it removes the major triad.


FrigginJerk: I believe the slash would imply some sort of inversion, but I don't wanna get in over my head.


lol, i was just using the slash to separate the additions.

but i think Fm(maj7) is the best one yet. Having it in brackets implies that the Fm itself is still normal, with a minor third, and that the maj7 is an alteration/addition to the chord.

and also, i noticed some people were saying that the definition of "maj7" is a major chord with a major 7th. this is not true. the "maj" part of the chord name ONLY refers to the 7th, not to the overall chord. in most notation, major chords are just written as a letter, ie: "A" instead of "Amaj." when we add a seventh, the seventh is either minor (A7) or major (Amaj7). so theoretically, you could add a maj7 to a minor chord, and include the "maj7" in the chord name, as we have with Fm(maj7).
Last edited by frigginjerk at Jan 19, 2009,
#39
Quote by TheGallowsPole
Isn't it only considered an add chord if its missing one of the previous necessary intervals?

Example, add9: 1-3-5-9 (no seventh)

Calling it an add7 would mean that one of those was missing.


That is true.

Like I said, just call in a mM7 or mMaj7 or something along those lines. It's the most concise name.
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#40
Ah, well then I've lost the ground for most of my argument. I thought it had to be a major triad. But nonetheless, I suppose Fm(maj7) would still work.
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