Page 1 of 2
#1
Let's say we're looking at C ionian (major), D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, G mixolydian, A aeloian (minor), and last but not least B Locrian. What would you call this entire group of notes, that is A B C D E F G, but not necessarily in that order?

thanks
Quote by Nakon14




Gear:
Epiphone Les Paul Studio
Crate GTD65
Vox DA5
#3
short answer: it depends what order they're in and what chords they are being played over.

long answer: It would really depend what order they're in. That's what that method of modal theory is all about... reordering the same notes to derive altered scales in different keys. it would also depend what you're playing them over. if you're playing those specific notes over a C major progression, it's all C major, no matter how you slice it. For example, if you try to play D dorian over a C major progression, and you're basing all your modal licks off of D as a root note, then you're still playing C major, just with the 2nd as your "main" note, and it will sound like ass.

remember that modes, in theory, are only considered modes if they are played over exactly the right chords, which usually limits you to the root chord and maybe one other chord. otherwise they're better looked at as a way to make an educated guess as to what accidentals might sound good in any given musical situation. Like, if you know the interval pattern for the phrygian scale, you know you can throw in a flat 2nd here and there when playing a minor scale over minor chords, and it will just make it sound more minor. you might say it's a "phrygian" sound, but really it's a flat-2nd-in-a-minor-scale sound.
#4
C ionian (major), D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, G mixolydian, A aeloian (minor), and last but not least B Locrian.


If we're talking about that, we call them the modes of C major.

What would you call this entire group of notes, that is A B C D E F G, but not necessarily in that order?


We'd call them the natural notes, or notes in the key of C.
#5
ok thanks, Freepower, your post was probably most helpful.

i posted a thread here a while ago stating that i was learning c major all over the fretboard (including modes and all that jazz) and i asked for any song suggestions to help me out, and accidentally started a war on terminology (but A minor IS NOT C major, etc.) i understand they have different tonal centers and intervals in relation to the root, but was i really wrong?

btw your AT sticky is my homepage very inspirational.
Quote by Nakon14




Gear:
Epiphone Les Paul Studio
Crate GTD65
Vox DA5
#7
i never specifically stated that i was just learning c major scale. i said c major all over the fretboard, including all modes in the key of c.
Quote by Nakon14




Gear:
Epiphone Les Paul Studio
Crate GTD65
Vox DA5
#9
yes because they work better over certain chords than plain old major scales
Quote by Nakon14




Gear:
Epiphone Les Paul Studio
Crate GTD65
Vox DA5
#10
They don't really work "better" - modes are a different musical system and most of the time they can't actually be applied to what you're doing.

For example, if you're playing over a progression that resolves to C major then the notes C D E F G A B will always be the C major scale, it's not possible to play A minor, E phrygian or any of the relaive modes. Even though the chords change the over-riding tonality is that of the parent key of C so the definition of those notes won't change.

Generally any progression that contains more than 3 chords is going to resolve to a major or minor key, it's just the way we've been conditioned to hear music. However, if you have one or two chords then it's quite easy to force the tonal centre somewhere else, and if you've got a different tonal centre that's when modes can apply.

Use the notes C D E F G A B over, for example, a Dm7 chord and you've got D Dorian - the chord has established the tonal centre of D and will over-ride the natural tendency of that group of notes to resolve to the relative major of C. The more chords you have though then the harder it becomes to keep the progression away from resolving conventionally...it's technically possible, but damned tricky.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


stuffmycatswatchontv.tumblr.com
Last edited by steven seagull at Jan 22, 2009,
#11
yea i meant a group of chords, not individual chords. the only time that i would use modes on individual chords is when soloing over a chord progression that is in no particular key (chromatic, i think it's called).
Quote by Nakon14




Gear:
Epiphone Les Paul Studio
Crate GTD65
Vox DA5
#12
You've kind of missed the point there, you can't generally use modes over a group of chords, you HAVE to use them over a relatively static backing of one or two chords to maintain the tonality of things, otherwise things have a tendency to drift back to the relative major or minor.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


stuffmycatswatchontv.tumblr.com
#13
let's say you have a strange chord progression of, let's say, 1 measure F minor, 1 measure C# diminished, and 2 measures d minor. could you not use F minor for the 1st measure, C# locrian the 2nd, and D dorian for the 3rd and 4th measures?
Quote by Nakon14




Gear:
Epiphone Les Paul Studio
Crate GTD65
Vox DA5
#14
The modes you choose should be suggested by the key you're playing in at the time (as that's how both the chords and scales to use are derived). With triads it's difficult to comment with certainty. But if you were using Fm7, C#m7b5 and Dm7 then the scales you suggested would work over that progression. Although locrian would obviously not work if you intended a diminished 7th.
Also, the aeolian mode (what I think you referred to as F minor?) is very rarely used when choosing modes, more likely you'd use F dorian over an Fm7 chord.
Although I'm only considering the chords, not the key as I don't know what it's meant to be. I think what I said is right though.
#15
Quote by Jammin'
let's say you have a strange chord progression of, let's say, 1 measure F minor, 1 measure C# diminished, and 2 measures d minor. could you not use F minor for the 1st measure, C# locrian the 2nd, and D dorian for the 3rd and 4th measures?


No, because modes don't work that way. Modes are used in works specifically designed for them; they are not something you pull out whenever you want to spice up a solo. That progression isn't modal at all. If you want to use C# locrian, the first step is to establish C# as a tonal center (good luck). If your tonal center isn't C#, you're not playing C# anything.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Last edited by Archeo Avis at Jan 26, 2009,
#17
Modes are used for writing.

Like Archeo put's it, you can't just pull em out to spice up ur solo's.

However, you can use them to spice up ur solo's, but then the rest of the harmony must go with it, or else it won't give the desired effect.

For instance, playing an EM7 chord for 4 measures, you can use E Ionian (major) or E Lydian over it. Now if you add 4 measures of Em7 after that, you can use Dorian or Aeolian or Phrygian over it(here it aurally makes quite a difference which mode you use).

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 26, 2009,
#18
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Modes are used for writing.

Like Archeo put's it, you can't just pull em out to spice up ur solo's.

However, you can use them to spice up ur solo's, but then the rest of the harmony must go with it, or else it won't give the desired effect.

For instance, playing an Em7 chord for 4 measures, you can use E Dorian over it. Now if you add 4 measures of EMaj7 after that, you can use Lydian over it, or Ionian (here it aurally makes quite a difference which mode you use).


That is only true if the tonal center changes along with the chords. Even then, it would be far easier to simply describe what you are doing as making alterations to the major/minor scale.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#19
Quote by Archeo Avis
That is only true if the tonal center changes along with the chords. Even then, it would be far easier to simply describe what you are doing as making alterations to the major/minor scale.


Modes are alteration's of the major/minor scale.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#20
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Modes are alteration's of the major/minor scale.


No, modes have alterations compared to the major scale. Modal music is not simply the major scale with alterations.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#22
I never said it's modal Archeo.

I guess I just tend more to the "way" jazz people see modes.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#23
Quote by xxdarrenxx
I never said it's modal Archeo.

I guess I just tend more to the "way" jazz people see modes.


Modes are almost entirely absent from jazz.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#24
Quote by Archeo Avis
Modes are almost entirely absent from jazz.


I meant when they improvise.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#25
the reason i am so stubborn on using modes is because i learned them all over the fretboard. so instead of using modes, could i just play all over the fretboard in the key of, let's say Aminor (if it fits) as long as the tonal center is A?
Quote by Nakon14




Gear:
Epiphone Les Paul Studio
Crate GTD65
Vox DA5
#27
Quote by Jammin'
the reason i am so stubborn on using modes is because i learned them all over the fretboard. so instead of using modes, could i just play all over the fretboard in the key of, let's say Aminor (if it fits) as long as the tonal center is A?


Yes. All scales and all modes span the entire fretboard.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#28
Quote by Jammin'
the reason i am so stubborn on using modes is because i learned them all over the fretboard. so instead of using modes, could i just play all over the fretboard in the key of, let's say Aminor (if it fits) as long as the tonal center is A?
I take it that you learned that A Aeolian is at the 5th fret and C Ionian is at the 8th fret and E Phrygian is at the 12th fret and such. Those could be considered the home positions of the scales (only among guitarists), but whether the notes are E Phrygian or just C major is determined by the context. If you know all of those home positions, you know the scale and its modes everywhere on the fretboard.
#29
one vision: no, not switching modes with the same tonal center. what i meant is playing all over in the key of C with the tonal center being A, which is not the key of c, but rather A minor.
Quote by Nakon14




Gear:
Epiphone Les Paul Studio
Crate GTD65
Vox DA5
#30
I'm not entirely sure what you said, but if you're playing over a progression in the key of C, your tonal center is C. All of the home positions of the modes of C major will fit over the progression, but it's all just C.
#31
Quote by xxdarrenxx
I meant when they improvise.


Doesn't matter what you meant. Modes are virtually absent from jazz.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#32
Quote by Archeo Avis
Doesn't matter what you meant. Modes are virtually absent from jazz.


I didn't make it up.

A lot of people talk in "modes" who improvise in Jazz.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#33
Quote by xxdarrenxx
I didn't make it up.

A lot of people talk in "modes" who improvise in Jazz.


Modal terminology is common because it allows musicians to easily communicate the relationships between the notes that they're playing and the underlying chord. They are not playing modally, and they are not using modes. Modes have nothing to do with it.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#34
Here we go again. Perhaps you'd like to give an example of something that really is modal Archeo. I'm still not completely sure what you mean by that word. You certainly don't mean the same thing the rest of the world means by it.
#35
Quote by anotherbluesguy
Here we go again. Perhaps you'd like to give an example of something that really is modal Archeo. I'm still not completely sure what you mean by that word. You certainly don't mean the same thing the rest of the world means by it.


What I "mean" is the definition of the term "modal". Listen to some pre-baroque music. Or, for the more modern "crammed into a tonal framnwork" modal music, some Satriani.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#36
Quote by Archeo Avis
Modal terminology is common because it allows musicians to easily communicate the relationships between the notes that they're playing and the underlying chord. They are not playing modally, and they are not using modes. Modes have nothing to do with it.


I know that.

Melodically they are thinking modal. Theoretically it isn't modal music, I know that.

But their note choices are based on that thinking. Or else they would call Dorian cookiedough or some random stuff like that.

If I say to a Jazz guy; Improvise using Dorian b2, then he will use the notes of a Dorian b2 scale. Whether it's theoretically correct is not the point, it affects his note choice, thus making a difference in the music, which is ultimately the goal in learning music for the majority of people (and at least 99.0827119% of the people that visit UG)

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 26, 2009,
#38
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I'm not entirely sure what you said, but if you're playing over a progression in the key of C, your tonal center is C. All of the home positions of the modes of C major will fit over the progression, but it's all just C.


what i meant is if you are playing with no sharps or flats, and the tonal center is "A," then you can play whatever the hell you want containing ABCDEFG as long as it somehow revolves around "A." am i right?
Quote by Nakon14




Gear:
Epiphone Les Paul Studio
Crate GTD65
Vox DA5
#39
Quote by Jammin'
what i meant is if you are playing with no sharps or flats, and the tonal center is "A," then you can play whatever the hell you want containing ABCDEFG as long as it somehow revolves around "A." am i right?

Yes.
#40
Quote by Jammin'
what i meant is if you are playing with no sharps or flats, and the tonal center is "A," then you can play whatever the hell you want containing ABCDEFG as long as it somehow revolves around "A." am i right?
Short Answer: Yes.

Long Answer: Yes, but not exclusively. If you're playing over something like Am G Am G, which is clearly in Am, the notes in the Am scale theoretically work, but not all of them will sound good just because they're in the Am scale. For instance, wailing away on a D over that Am probably won't sound good. Moreover, chromatic tones sound good; think about that b5 in the A blues scale.

Additionally, your lead doesn't have to resolve to A. The chord progression determines the key. I wrote a song where the lead plays notes that would typically be associated with the relative major or minor chords of the chords played. Using that theory with the progression above, you would approach the lead as if you were playing over C Em C Em. Your lead is going to end up resolving to C, but since the chords clearly resolve to Am rather than C, it is Am. The order in which you play the notes and their position on the fretboard does not matter; chord progressions determine keys and modes.
Page 1 of 2