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#4
You could use Em or G major or any mode of those two, but Em will probably 'fit' best
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#5
Yes, use the Em scale.

You could also use any of the scale shapes for the G major scale, however it would still be an Em scale because it will resolve to E (that is, if you make it sound good).

Depending on the chord progression you might be able to use different Em scales such as the harmonic minor.
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#6
Em scale or G major scale.

(Or A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, F# Locrian)
#7
No, you couldn't "use G major"

If the song is in E minor then E minor is the scale you would use...G major doesn't exist in that context and neither do any of the relative modes.

You could try E major, but it might sound a bit odd if it's a particularly minor-sounding riff or progression.
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Last edited by steven seagull at Jan 20, 2009,
#8
If you use the G Major scale then the tonality of your piece is going to be in G, not in Em. Use the E minor penta or the E natural minor scale.
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#9
Quote by steven seagull
No, you couldn't "use G major"

If the song is in E minor then E minor is the scale you would use...G major doesn't exist in that context and neither do any of the relative modes.

You could try E major, but it might sound a bit odd if it's a particularly minor-sounding riff or progression.


nitpicker.

If the song is in E minor there ist probably a G major cord in it. And you can play the G major scale over a G major cord now, can't you?

http://www.zentao.com/guitar/modes/modes-4.html
#10
it's not nitpicking at all - its called "music theory".

If the song's in Em then you use the Em scale, it doesn't matter if there's a G major chord in there or not and this has nothing to do with modes.
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#11
Quote by steven seagull
No, you couldn't "use G major"

If the song is in E minor then E minor is the scale you would use...G major doesn't exist in that context and neither do any of the relative modes.

You could try E major, but it might sound a bit odd if it's a particularly minor-sounding riff or progression.

???

The Gmajor scale would sound much better than the Emajor scale since it will either harmonise in diatonic 3rds or just resolve to an Em scale. At least the notes are in key.
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#12
The G major scale won't exist - those notes will be the E minor scale in that context.
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#13
Seagull is entirely correct. Over an Em progression, the notes EF#GABCDE, in any order and anywhere on the fretboard, are E minor. G major and the modes of the Em scale have absolutely nothing to do with this.
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#14
The difference is the root note.

Ok. I'll give you an example.

Song is in Em, okay?

Cord Progression is

I - VI - III - IV

I -> E-Minor
VI -> C-Lydian
III -> G-Major
IV -> A-Dorian

See what I mean?
#15
Quote by Maxico

See what I mean?


Not exactally..
there's a difference between modal music and tonal music.
If i'm playing in Em then any order of notes i play from the Em scale are Em.
Modes have nothing to do with it.
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Last edited by victoryaloy at Jan 20, 2009,
#16
Quote by Maxico
The difference is the root note.

Ok. I'll give you an example.

Song is in Em, okay?

Cord Progression is

I - VI - III - IV

I -> E-Minor
VI -> C-Lydian
III -> G-Major
IV -> A-Dorian

See what I mean?

There is no "root note" - if the progression resolves to Em then that's the tonal centre and E minor is the scale those notes form, modes have nothing to do with it.
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#17
Quote by Maxico
The difference is the root note.

Ok. I'll give you an example.

Song is in Em, okay?

Cord Progression is

I - VI - III - IV

I -> E-Minor
VI -> C-Lydian
III -> G-Major
IV -> A-Dorian

See what I mean?

Chord progression such as this one are in one key, not a new key for every chord.

This is because if you split the chord into the separate notes and voice one note per instrument (as chords were originally created in choirs) then you wouldn't have a chord progression that keeps on changing key, instead each instrument would have a melody in the key of E minor.
#18
I meant the root note for every chord (-> every scale).

OOokay, to clear things up:

The vertical approach – the player solos according to the current chord. (What I meant.)

The horizontal approach – the player solos according to the current scale. (What you meant.)

Right is? Both are right.

Ok, you never played jazz?
#19
Quote by Maxico
I meant the root note for every chord (-> every scale).

OOokay, to clear things up:

The vertical approach – the player solos according to the current chord. (What I meant.)

The horizontal approach – the player solos according to the current scale. (What you meant.)

Right is? Both are right.

Ok, you never played jazz?

You're still wrong - if you want to do that you'd use the major scale of the tonic of each chord or one of its parallel modes if the chord suggests it, the relative modes of the parent key have nothing to do with it, and if you happen to use one then it's only by coincidence.

If you're "using the modes" of each chord based on the scale degrees then you're not actually doing anything other than playing in the parent key.
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Last edited by steven seagull at Jan 20, 2009,
#20
Ok, you never played jazz?


Jazz, even "modal" jazz, is very rarely (if ever) modal. There's a tendency to use modal terminology for the simple reason that it makes certain concepts easier to visualize, but jazz isn't played that way you're suggesting. Seagull is absolutely right.
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#21
I have to go with Archeo and Seagul on this one. If you are playing over a chord progression in Em and try to use the G major scale, you will just be playing in the Em scale and stressing the wrong notes (wrong meaning off, do whatever you want), and it will most likely sound like crap.
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#22
It isn't that you wouldn't play G major; you CAN'T! The notes E F# G A B C D, in any order, anywhere on the neck, over an Em progression is E Natural Minor. There are no exceptions to this rule.
#23
Yes. Someone could TRY to resolve to G over an Em chord progression, therefor TRYing to use the G major scale. Although this would actually sound ok, because G is in the Em chord, they are still not using G major.
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#25
I just think that your nitpicking won't help the OP.

seagull said you could "not use the g major scale".
I know that he meant that in the way "The G major sacale will be the E natural minor scale in that context."
Okay, but I think saying something like hat will just confuse the OP (especially with the "You could try E major, but it might sound a bit odd if it's a particularly minor-sounding riff or progression." What?!).

I just wanted to point out that whenever he comes across a G major, A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian or F# Locrian scale/mode he could use it to solo over a part in Em because they all share identical notes (because they're all in fact just E natural minor with different root notes).

I didn't say that seagull was wrong. (Although the "E major hink" he was talking about was wierd?)
#26
Quote by Maxico
I just think that your nitpicking won't help the OP.

seagull said you could "not use the g major scale".
I know that he meant that in the way "The G major sacale will be the E natural minor scale in that context."
Okay, but I think saying something like hat will just confuse the OP (especially with the "You could try E major, but it might sound a bit odd if it's a particularly minor-sounding riff or progression." What?!).

I just wanted to point out that whenever he comes across a G major, A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian or F# Locrian scale/mode he could use it to solo over a part in Em because they all share identical notes (because they're all in fact just E natural minor with different root notes).

I didn't say that seagull was wrong. (Although the "E major hink" he was talking about was wierd?)


Your talking about shapes, not modes. The mode is just the collection of notes, with a specific note as the tonic. A shape doesn't indicate a tonic. In this context all of them are methods of playing E natural minor. You definitely won't be using modes unless its over a modal progression, which are very hard to write, or a vamp. You won't use G Major in this context, because what you <i>think</i> is G Major is actually E natural minor, in a different position on the neck.
#28
^^ Didn't read ANY of the previous posts. You can not use Gmaj.
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#30
Quote by steven seagull
it's not nitpicking at all - its called "music theory".

If the song's in Em then you use the Em scale, it doesn't matter if there's a G major chord in there or not and this has nothing to do with modes.


Actually, no you don't have to just stick to the E minor scale.

An E natural minor scale is as follows - E F# G A B C D

Now if you right those pitches on the staff and build diatonic triads off of them, you'll find the same diatonic triads to the key of G Major, just in a different order. For example...say in the chord of E minor, I hit an open E note on my guitar...then play a G triad. E-G-B-D. Thats nothing more than an E minor seventh. You don't even have to resolve to an E at the end to "tie everything up." A little dissonance is okay, you know.
#31
Quote by Axe720
Actually, no you don't have to just stick to the E minor scale.

An E natural minor scale is as follows - E F# G A B C D

Now if you right those pitches on the staff and build diatonic triads off of them, you'll find the same diatonic triads to the key of G Major, just in a different order. For example...say in the chord of E minor, I hit an open E note on my guitar...then play a G triad. E-G-B-D. Thats nothing more than an E minor seventh. You don't even have to resolve to an E at the end to "tie everything up." A little dissonance is okay, you know.

What Seagull was saying was that if you use the notes from the G major scale or any of its modes you will really just be playing in the key of E minor.

It has nothing to do with dissonance, because the notes in the G major scale will be no more dissonant over a E minor progression than the notes from the E minor scale, it's just that it would be impossible to play in the key of G major because those notes would just imply the key of E minor.
#32
there still seems to be a few dissenters here that don't think it's all E minor... maybe my explanation will help....

there is a HUGE misconception on these forums: that the method of deriving modes by starting the scale on a different degree will yield scales with different root notes and scale patterns that will "magically" work over the original key.

an example would be trying to play D dorian over a C major progression, with all your modal licks based around the note D. This would most likely sound plain old wrong to most ears.

the fact that modes can be derived like that is pretty cool but it's more like a big mathematical coincidence brought on by the fact that the notes repeat to infinity, but the reality is that true modal music is rare, hard to write, and doesn't offer much flexibility to the composer before they have to step outside the boundaries of modal music or risk introducing really harsh dissonance and tension to parts of their music.

modes as they relate to most guitar-based western music are more of a description of what accidentals (ie: modal notes) can be added to a standard minor or major scale in a given musical context to create interesting harmonies.

For example, adding a #4 to a major scale melody played over major chords in the SAME key (ie: an A major scale with a #4 played over an A major progression), will add what people commonly refer to as a "lydian" sound to the melody. But the reality is that it's more of a "major-scale-with-a-#4" sound. Remember that true modal music uses ONLY the notes from a given mode, even in the underlying chord progression. If any of the chords don't match, it's technically not modal.

what some people in this thread are trying to put forward, and what I have argued in the past myself, is that you could, in a roundabout way, use a fingering pattern based on the intervals of a derived modal scale (ie: G major played over E minor).

Though it's possible to play different fingering patterns, the notes are still the same as E minor, and if you try to root your melodies on the G note while an E minor progression is playing, it WILL sound wrong to most ears. I encourage you to try it. Open guitarpro or powertab, make a quick Em, Am, Bm, Em progression in whole notes, and loop it. Try playing licks over this progression in G major, and use G as your "main" note to resolve to. Tell me it doesn't sound like crap.

Any other approach to match derived modes to the chords would amount to simply switching scales to correspond with every chord in the progression, or would be better described as "adding an accidental" rather than "playing a different mode over it," since we're usually talking about adding one note here and there.

so what i recommend is to learn about intervals, and then learn the interval patterns of the modal scales. this will help you to understand how and where to add these mysterious "modal notes" to create rich harmonies and sounds.
Last edited by frigginjerk at Jan 21, 2009,
#34
This is a stupid argument.

Theoretically, G major doesnt "exist"

Practically, the root position G Major exists, so if TS wants to solo in G, he would presumably be using a major mode which makes it in G major....
#35
Quote by PinkFloyd73
This is a stupid argument.

Theoretically, G major doesnt "exist"

Practically, the root position G Major exists, so if TS wants to solo in G, he would presumably be using a major mode which makes it in G major....


No, it doesn't make it G major. Scales are not just box shapes.
Over an Em progression, the notes EF#GABCD are Em. Period.
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#36
Quote by frigginjerk
the reality is that true modal music is rare, hard to write, and doesn't offer much flexibility to the composer before they have to step outside the boundaries of modal music or risk introducing really harsh dissonance and tension to parts of their music.


I so much overestimated this forum then.

Quote by isaac_bandits
Your talking about shapes, not modes.


Haha, yeah, I'm not a native speaker and I'm an autodidact (so I don't even know al he right expressions im my native tongue).

To clear things up:

I wanted to say that you, dear rebel624, should use E natural minor and you can use the shapes (or "finger positions") of G major, A dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, F# Locrian as they're all in fact E natural minor in that context?

Ok, is that understandable now?

And which notes are to emphasize is really up to the solist alone.
#37
This is just insane. Some people really need to learn theory themselves before giving advice to others that could slow down their practice routine.

The bottom line is, really, if you want to be a good guitarist, and not just a shredder/"lead" player, you should really learn the scales, and then let them sit in the back of your mind. What's more important in a solo is not the scale, but the actual notes themselves. If you rely too much on thinking about scales, your solos will sound like a scale.
#38
Quote by PinkFloyd73
This is a stupid argument.

Theoretically, G major doesnt "exist"

Practically, the root position G Major exists, so if TS wants to solo in G, he would presumably be using a major mode which makes it in G major....

But nothing inherently makes that shape "G major", it's just a bunch of notes and unless you specifically play the notes in sequence from from G to G then it's no more G major than it is E minor, B Phrygian, F# Locrian etc. What a shape represents on the guitar is dependent on the context, and in the context of the key of E minor then it's E minor.
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#39
Quote by 12345abcd3
Chord progression such as this one are in one key, not a new key for every chord.

This is because if you split the chord into the separate notes and voice one note per instrument (as chords were originally created in choirs) then you wouldn't have a chord progression that keeps on changing key, instead each instrument would have a melody in the key of E minor.


I think he is confused with "playing the changes", where a new scale can be played over each new chord. What he doesn't understand is that it's not as simple as just changing scale when you feel like it. Otherwise it will sound very disjointed and incomplete. You can play a new scale over each new chord but:

1. you have to play the chord long enough to develop the scale in question, switching keys quickly (well to my ear anyway) sounds like crap.

2. Modes don't come into it, at all. Modal music is something completely different.
#40
^doesn't it take your brain something like 7-9 seconds to "forget" something, therefore you need to spend at least that long on a chord to establish a new tonal centre, otherwise the overall tonality will still be prevalent.
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