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#1
Aside from bbeing the 5th degree of a scale, or being 7 semitones away from note, what does dominant mean when used with chords and scales? Such as the phygrian dominant, the C7 dominant etc, what does a chord have to do, or wah does a scale have to do to be considered dominant?

I did a google search, and it said that "Dominant chords are chords that want to resolve into another chord", which doesnt make sense to me, i know how to use dominant chords and scales as harmonies/ melodies that complement each other (just use the same key right? or use the scales which contain the particular chords notes, or vice versa, right? if im wrong or if theres more to this, please add) but i want to understand how a chord or scale gains the name dominant.

Thanks in advnace

Edit: o sorry, i forgot to mention that i know how to make a dominant 7th chord, 1 3 5 b7, but how do you make a dominant scale? Why is that scale a dominant scale? Why is this chord a dominant chord? as far as i know it has some relation to the scale's fifth? which is?

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Last edited by dmirtygorachyov at Jan 28, 2009,
#3
A dominant chord is basically a major 7th chord but with a minor 7th interval. It just the name its given.

Dominant chords are good at resolving chord patterns yea but they are also good to use in modulation to another key. For example if you have c amjor as your key and you want to modulate to G major then you would use a d domiant chord instead of the d minor chord because d dominant is the 5th interval of g major. You don't have to modulate like this but more than likely it will work pritty well.
#4
Loosely copied from Berklee Harmony notes-

The word dominant describes 2 things in harmonic theory.
It can be a type of chord or a function of a chord.

A dominant type of chord has a major 3rd and a minor 7th

A chord with dominant function is the 5th degree of a major key.
#5
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
Edit: o sorry, i forgot to mention that i know how to make a dominant 7th chord, 1 3 5 b7, but how do you make a dominant scale? Why is that scale a dominant scale?

The exact same way you would with a chord. Whether it's a scale or arpeggio, it just needs to contain those intervals.

Look at these two scales.

R 2 3 #4 5 6 7
R 2 3 #4 5 6 b7

Can you name them?
#6
Quote by branny1982
Loosely copied from Berklee Harmony notes-

The word dominant describes 2 things in harmonic theory.
It can be a type of chord or a function of a chord.

A dominant type of chord has a major 3rd and a minor 7th

A chord with dominant function is the 5th degree of a major key.


So does that mean a dominant chord or a dominant scale, would always have a major 3rd, a dominant (perfect 5th) and a minor 7th?
#7
Quote by mdc
The exact same way you would with a chord. Whether it's a scale or arpeggio, it just needs to contain those intervals.

Look at these two scales.

R 2 3 #4 5 6 7
R 2 3 #4 5 6 b7

Can you name them?


Lydian, and lydian b7? No idea for the second one, im just using common sense

Edit: o wait sorry, i didnt look properly, im guessing its a lydian dominant because it has a maj 3rd, dominant, and a minor 7th?
Last edited by dmirtygorachyov at Jan 28, 2009,
#8
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
So does that mean a dominant chord or a dominant scale, would always have a major 3rd, a dominant (perfect 5th) and a minor 7th?


Yep, thats it basically.
#9
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
Lydian, and lydian b7? No idea for the second one, im just using common sense

Perfect! Your thinking is very logical, you haven't really got a problem with understanding this stuff.

It could also be called Lydian Dominant. Both terms are used in today's world.

Could you list the intervals of the Mode/Scale Aeolian Dominant?
#10
But aside from the practical side of the theory, the theeory side of the theory says its connected to something, like, the dominant 7th chord is build upon the 5th degree of a particular scale with a major 7th chord or something like that, something that wasnt clear to me, and was very loosely mention, without depth, can someone give some insight on this please?
#11
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
Lydian, and lydian b7? No idea for the second one, im just using common sense

Edit: o wait sorry, i didnt look properly, im guessing its a lydian dominant because it has a maj 3rd, dominant, and a minor 7th?


Just wondering, why are you calling a perfect fifth interval a "dominant"?
#12
Quote by blueriver
Just wondering, why are you calling a perfect fifth interval a "dominant"?


Its just a name for the degree of a scale...

1. Tonic
2. Supertonic
3. Mediant.
4. Subdominant
5. Dominant
6. Submediant (I think)
7. Leading note
8. Tonic again
#13
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
But aside from the practical side of the theory, the theeory side of the theory says its connected to something, like, the dominant 7th chord is build upon the 5th degree of a particular scale with a major 7th chord or something like that, something that wasnt clear to me, and was very loosely mention, without depth, can someone give some insight on this please?

Do you know how to "harmonize" the major scale?

When you do this, you're building chords by "stacking 3rds". By following the formula of the major scale, when you stack 3rds from the V degree, the intervals will dictate that chord to be dominant.
#14
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
So does that mean a dominant chord or a dominant scale, would always have a major 3rd, a dominant (perfect 5th) and a minor 7th?


well, i didn't mention the 5th!

a dominant chord or scale must have a major 3rd and a minor 7th.
Anything goes with the other degrees i think.

If the 5th wasn't perfect, you may call the scale/chord diminished... but i don't think the 5th impacts the definition of dominant.
#15
Quote by mdc
Perfect! Your thinking is very logical, you haven't really got a problem with understanding this stuff.

It could also be called Lydian Dominant. Both terms are used in today's world.

Could you list the intervals of the Mode/Scale Aeolian Dominant?


aeolian = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7,

so dom aeolian wud b = 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7

which is a maj2, maj 3 , perfect 4th, perfect 5th, minor 6th and a minor 7th,

But i still dont get why it got the same name as the 5th degree of a major scale, there must be some relation, so what is the relation, thats the main question, as the question on scales is already answered thanks!
#16
"If the 5th wasn't perfect, you may call the scale/chord diminished... but i don't think the 5th impacts the definition of dominant."

You know or just a maybe?
#17
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
But i still dont get why it got the same name as the 5th degree of a major scale, there must be some relation, so what is the relation, thats the main question,

Post #13. That's the right answer btw. Also known as Mixolydian b6.
#18
^^ dominant defines the relation between a maj3rd and a minor 7th


The reason why they call scales like that, is because it's used often in jazz. And in Jazz the convention is that dominant chords are the most versatile chords and extensions are often added to these chord.

like if you have a 2 - 5 - 1 in C (dm7 - G7 - CMaj7)

Then if you want the (tritone) sound of lydian over the G7, The major7th interval will clash hence it will be flattened.

Lydian has a major 3rd so it's a "major" scale/mode, which means it can be used over a dominant chord which also has a maj3rd (as long as you also flatten the M7th)

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 28, 2009,
#19
Just to add, the dominant chord is an essential part of music since it creates such strong movement towards the tonic (authentic cadence, look it up.).


When I say dominant here, I mean not only in type, but in function.
#20
Quote by mdc
Do you know how to "harmonize" the major scale?

When you do this, you're building chords by "stacking 3rds". By following the formula of the major scale, when you stack 3rds from the V degree, the intervals will dictate that chord to be dominant.


I kind of know how to "harmonize"

Okay, i used to think i know what stacking thirds meant, but since i just tried stackign thirds just then, it doidnt work, so how exactly do we stack thirds? thanksss
#21
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
But i still dont get why it got the same name as the 5th degree of a major scale, there must be some relation, so what is the relation, thats the main question, as the question on scales is already answered thanks!


Each scale degree has it's own name. The two most important are the tonic which is the first degree of the major scale. And the dominant which is the fifth degree.

(The 2nd = supertonic, 3rd = mediant, 4th = subdominant, 5th = dominant, 6th = submediant, 7th = leading tone (or sometimes subtonic))

When you harmonize the major scale to create chords the chord built off the fifth degree (the dominant) is a Major triad.

So in C we have C D E F G A B C. Building a chord using the fifth degree as the root, the G, using only the notes from the C major scale we get G B D for the triad. If we make it a seventh chord we get G B D F this is a dom7th. Called such because it is the only degree of the major scale that forms the dom7.

The full list of diatonic 7ths = IMaj7 iim7 iiim7 IVMaj7 V7 vim7 viim7b5.

EDIT: to harmonize just take the scale you want to harmonize and write it out:

C major
C D E F G A B C

Then start with the first C move up a third (C=1 D=2 E=3) so the next note is E. Then move up another third E to F to G. So our next note is G. So stacking thirds in this way gives us C E G = C major triad.

Do the same thing off each scale degree. Off the second we get D F A = Dm. Off the third we get E G B = Em.

And on it goes.

To get sevenths you add another third.

So C E G B = CMaj7
D F A C = Dm7
E G B D = Em7
F A C E = FMaj7
G B D F = G7
etc.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Jan 28, 2009,
#22
Ok, learning how to harmonize the major scale is one of the most important things you'll ever learn. If you can do this, you can do it with any scale, and thus determine the chords of the scale.

C Major Scale

C D E F G A B

Stack 3rds from the Root.

C E G = R 3 5 The distance between E and G is minor 3rd.

From D

D F A = R b3 5 The distance between F and A is a major 3rd.

Atm, we are stacking 3rds only to create triads. You can carry on to the 7th degree if you like, but just try the first 3 notes/intervals.

This why 3 note chords are called "triads", cuz they are built using 3rds.
Last edited by mdc at Jan 28, 2009,
#23
Quote by mdc
Ok, learning how to harmonize the major scale is one of the most important things you'll ever learn. If you can do this, you can do it with any scale, and thus determine the chords of the scale.

C Major Scale

C D E F G A B

Stack 3rds from the Root.

C E G = R 3 5

From D

D F A = R b3 5

Atm, we are stacking 3rds only to create triads. You can carry on to the 7th degree if you like, but just try the first 3 notes.

This why 3 note chords are called "triads", cuz they are built using 3rds.

Can you do the rest? So from E, then F etc.


O WAIT I GOT IT NOW! LOL I WAs SO STUPID!! I was right that i knew waht stacking tthirds were, i just thought, by stacking thirds from the dominant of a major scale would create a dom7th chord for the root of the key, not for the particular dominant, so it was my bad loL! i get it now, its just abit hard to remember these little details sometimes lol, thanks alot! I KNOW NOOWW!!!

UG OWNNZZZ!

btw e = e, g , b = e minor triad

f= f, a, c = a major triad,

I get it now!!!! I SO TOTALLY GET IT (the by going up in thirds on the major scale dominant, it creates the dominant 7th for the particular DOMINANT, not the SCALE ROOT, which was what i thought)

But now for the scales wise relation, the lydian dominant, would be the dominant for what scale? is there a technique on how to find out instead of identifying the notes yada yada?

Edit: Sorry i mean f major triad, not a major, so many things going in my head atm lol
Last edited by dmirtygorachyov at Jan 28, 2009,
#24
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
O WAIT I GOT IT NOW! LOL I WAs SO STUPID!! I was right that i knew waht stacking tthirds were, i just thought, by stacking thirds from the dominant of a major scale would create a dom7th chord for the root of the key, not for the particular dominant, so it was my bad loL! i get it now, its just abit hard to remember these little details sometimes lol, thanks alot! I KNOW NOOWW!!!

UG OWNNZZZ!

btw e = e, g , b = e minor triad

f= f, a, c = a major triad,

I get it now!!!! I SO TOTALLY GET IT (the by going up in thirds on the major scale dominant, it creates the dominant 7th for the particular DOMINANT, not the SCALE ROOT, which was what i thought)

But now for the scales wise relation, the lydian dominant, would be the dominant for what scale? is there a technique on how to find out instead of identifying the notes yada yada?



Lydian dominant is the scale.

Although a typical "Lydian dominant chord" would be a (Dominant)7#11 chord built on the tonic.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 28, 2009,
#25
^^ Np 20Tigers put quite a lot of effort in to his post, I'd thank him too.

Well Lydian dominant is a scale drived from the Melodic Minor Scale. It is built off of the 4th degree of the Melodic Minor Scale.

Tbh, it's probably not worth getting in to Melodic Minor yet, but if you want to then that's cool.

I suggest maybe just reinforcing your knowledge of the Major Scale and it's modes, chord construction, all that stuff, and apply it to the guitar. There's no need to rush things.

Btw, remember that C#m7#5 chord in the other thread? It was built by harmonsizing in 3rds from the C# Phrygian scale, to the 7th dgree (that's where the C#m7 comes from). As for the #5, this is known as an extension.

Do you know how construct extended chords?
Last edited by mdc at Jan 28, 2009,
#26
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Lydian dominant is the scale.

Although a typical "Lydian dominant chord" would be a (Dominant)7#11 chord built on the tonic.


well at the moment im not sure if my question actually has an answer or not, but ill try anyway just to make sure, does the lydian dominant have any relative scales? If so wouldnt that mean that there would be one a perfect 5th above its root note because the lydian dominant isa "dominant?" otherwise if it doesnt exist, why does the term lydian dominant exist and not jsut stay as lydian b7?

If you get what im saying
#27
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
well at the moment im not sure if my question actually has an answer or not, but ill try anyway just to make sure, does the lydian dominant have any relative scales? If so wouldnt that mean that there would be one a perfect 5th above its root note because the lydian dominant isa "dominant?" otherwise if it doesnt exist, why does the term lydian dominant exist and not jsut stay as lydian b7?

If you get what im saying

^ This is why you have to do this.... >

Quote by mdc
I suggest maybe just reinforcing your knowledge of the Major Scale and it's modes, chord construction, all that stuff, and apply it to the guitar. There's no need to rush things.

It's probably my fault, I shouldn't have brought Lydian Dominant in to it earlier in the thread in the first place lol!
Last edited by mdc at Jan 28, 2009,
#28
Quote by mdc
^^ Np 20Tigers put quite a lot of effort in to his post, I'd thank him too.

Well Lydian dominant is a scale drived from the Melodic Minor Scale. It is built off of the 4th degree of the Melodic Minor Scale.

Tbh, it's probably not worth getting in to Melodic Minor yet, but if you want to then that's cool.

I suggest maybe just reinforcing your knowledge of the Major Scale and it's modes, chord construction, all that stuff, and apply it to the guitar. There's no need to rush things.

Btw, remember that C#m7#5 chord in the other thread? It was built by harmonsizing in 3rds from the C# Phrygian scale, to the 7th dgree (that's where the C#m7 comes from). As for the #5, this is known as an extension.

Do you know how construct extended chords?


I think so, extended chord is just a normal chord which is modified to complement the mode in use, or scale, just to fit in better with the thing, but they arent neccessary unless u want a particular sound right? i was planning on finishing thispost buut its 3 am atm and i cant thing straight lol, ill try and post what i was planning on posting again tmr. good night guys, thanks for helping me all! <3 to uggggggggg and 20th tigets
#29
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
well at the moment im not sure if my question actually has an answer or not, but ill try anyway just to make sure, does the lydian dominant have any relative scales? If so wouldnt that mean that there would be one a perfect 5th above its root note because the lydian dominant isa "dominant?" otherwise if it doesnt exist, why does the term lydian dominant exist and not jsut stay as lydian b7?

If you get what im saying


Well it's the 4th mode oh the MELODIC minor scale ^^ what MDC said in 2 posts up.

But you've chosen an "exception" scale.


Melodic minor has come into theory because of classical music.

Lydian dominant is "accidentally" also the 4th mode of melodic minor scale, as well as a scale for jazz'ers to improvise with.

Why do I call this accidently? Because both the scales are just related by notes, but not by approach.

Jazz'ers are always in for using new/weird/outside note options. It just happens to be that they wanted to use Lydian for improvisations. Most people in Jazz use "outside" sounding scales over dominant based chords, because these are the most "neutral" to solo over, and can be extended in the most ways based on usage in Jazz.

Lydian doesn't work over a Dominant chord, so they flattened the 7th interval to make it "sound right". You can call it Lydian b7, but in Jazz they don't.

Why not?

Because a b7 doesn't always indicate it can be used over a Dominant chord. A minor 7th chord contains a b7 as well, but a MINOR 3rd.

Using Lydian Dominant over a m7 chord, will not be a good choice cause you choose a major based scale over a minor based chord.


Phrygian dominant is a good example as well.

Phrygian indicates a MINOR based scale. Phrygian dominant is created by making the minor 3rd into a major 3rd, which changes the scale from a minor scale to a dominant scale.

Phrygian over a m7 chord works beautifullt, but phrygian over a dominant chord doesn't.

So how do you make it work over a dominant chord? You make the minor 3rd a major 3rd, so you can build a dominant chord on the tonic.


Phrygian dominant is the 5th mode of the Harmonic minor scale. Once again this is "coincidence", cause it's also used in other music, and not (only) in classical music.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 28, 2009,
#30
by the way imnot trying to rush things, its jsut that as i browse the forums and mix the knowlede i have from theory, i get curious o_o
#31
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
by the way imnot trying to rush things, its jsut that as i browse the forums and mix the knowlede i have from theory, i get curious o_o



I made a post ^^

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#32
Quote by face_the_fear
Its just a name for the degree of a scale...

1. Tonic
2. Supertonic
3. Mediant.
4. Subdominant
5. Dominant
6. Submediant (I think)
7. Leading note
8. Tonic again


I know the name for degrees it just seemed odd to say major third, dominant, minor seventh.
#33
Quote by mdc
Btw, remember that C#m7#5 chord in the other thread? It was built by harmonsizing in 3rds from the C# Phrygian scale, to the 7th dgree (that's where the C#m7 comes from). As for the #5, this is known as an alteration.

Do you know how construct extended chords?

^ Fixed.
The #5 is technically makes it an altered seventh chord as opposed to an extended chord.
Si
#34
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Well it's the 4th mode oh the MELODIC minor scale ^^ what MDC said in 2 posts up.

But you've chosen an "exception" scale.


Melodic minor has come into theory because of classical music.

Lydian dominant is "accidentally" also the 4th mode of melodic minor scale, as well as a scale for jazz'ers to improvise with.

Why do I call this accidently? Because both the scales are just related by notes, but not by approach.

Jazz'ers are always in for using new/weird/outside note options. It just happens to be that they wanted to use Lydian for improvisations. Most people in Jazz use "outside" sounding scales over dominant based chords, because these are the most "neutral" to solo over, and can be extended in the most ways based on usage in Jazz.

Lydian doesn't work over a Dominant chord, so they flattened the 7th interval to make it "sound right". You can call it Lydian b7, but in Jazz they don't.

Why not?

Because a b7 doesn't always indicate it can be used over a Dominant chord. A minor 7th chord contains a b7 as well, but a MINOR 3rd.

Using Lydian Dominant over a m7 chord, will not be a good choice cause you choose a major based scale over a minor based chord.


Phrygian dominant is a good example as well.

Phrygian indicates a MINOR based scale. Phrygian dominant is created by making the minor 3rd into a major 3rd, which changes the scale from a minor scale to a dominant scale.

Phrygian over a m7 chord works beautifullt, but phrygian over a dominant chord doesn't.

So how do you make it work over a dominant chord? You make the minor 3rd a major 3rd, so you can build a dominant chord on the tonic.


Phrygian dominant is the 5th mode of the Harmonic minor scale. Once again this is "coincidence", cause it's also used in other music, and not (only) in classical music.


k , got it Epic explanation though, but thanks, i get it now
#35
Good information so far, but I'll just add that the term "dominant" in tonal harmony describes the function of the chord rather the specific degree it is built from. For instance, the v chord in a minor key, though built off of the fifth degree (often referred to as the "dominant", which is confusing in this context) could not be said to truly be functioning as a dominant, whereas the viio chord in a major key does in fact function as a dominant chord.
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#36
To give you an idea of what Arch means, in C major, the V7 chord is G7, G B D F, and the viio chord is Bmb5, B D F, and if you make that Bm7b5, it's B D F A. Look at the notes in G7 and Bm7b5. Notice anything similar?
#37
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Delete that! I want people to try to figure this out before it's explained to them!


Done.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#38
i got everything u guys said, but for now, something that isnt particular clear to me is "alterations" and "extensions"

i took a quick look up on it, and im assuming, wif my magical brain, that extended chords are just chords taht are extended using the stacking thirds idea?, like a C maj9 is an extended version of cmaj 7?

And an alteration is just a slightly modified chord to fit in wth a scale.

If im wrong, try and explain,but please try not to make huge posts like xxdarrenxx or 20thtiger, i feel very guilty for making u guys make huge posts, make a short one, and if i dont get it, maybe we can expand, but im quite confident ill get it the first time
#39
An altered chord isn't supposed to fit in a scale. You use the alterations to create dissonance.

I'm out for the night, but you've covered plenty for one day. Altered chords are fairly advanced, so it's okay not to understand them immediately.
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