#1
Let's say I have a C7add11 chord in the key of C Major. How would I go about forming this chord? Is it as simple as C-E-G-B-F? Or is there more to it? And for add9 chords... like Cadd9. C-E-G-D right?

For the first example: does it matter where the F would go? Can the notes be out of order? Or does it have to be CEGBF..?

For the second: Same as the other question :]

Thank you for all your answers, beforehand

inb4: Learn the basics of chord construction. (I know the basics. My jazz band class requires alot of chords like that, and I just wanted to make sure.)
#2
CEGA#F

CM7add11 = CEGBF

The order does matter because of voicing.

Although theoretically changing the order works, aurally it doesn't always work.

Because of how you voice it some intervals can suddenly clash because they are a semitone apart in the same range if you arrange em differently.


This is to big of a subject to cover in 1 post. You need to learn about conventions of certain musical styles, and about chord voicings, as well as "what works".

I learned this stuff through music books from a local library, I suggest do the same, or maybe buy a book on harmony.

Although I believe there are good chord construction guides here on UG, they are mostly summaries, and don't go as in-depth as a whole book devoted to the subject.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 28, 2009,
#3
Alright... I figured that the voicing would matter because of how close some of the intervals would become. I just wanted to make sure. I've experimented with the voicings before, and it didn't really sound good...

Haha, I did the dominant 7th xD But the same idea applies. So was I right in what I said? Is it really as simple as adding that extra 11th over the top of the chord?
#4
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Alright... I figured that the voicing would matter because of how close some of the intervals would become. I just wanted to make sure. I've experimented with the voicings before, and it didn't really sound good...

Haha, I did the dominant 7th xD But the same idea applies. So was I right in what I said? Is it really as simple as adding that extra 11th over the top of the chord
?


Jup jup.

You at least understand it would clash; that's a good mindset.

I'd recommend checking out Jazz artists who use extensions over basic dominant/major7ths/minor7th chords to spice it up, and try to learn why they use those voicings (through or example books and articles I mentioned).

I learned a lot of listening to Eric Johnson (although he copies alot of the old Jazz greats, I just like his music)

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#5
You are correct, but I think it would be more musical to write C11 instead of C7Add11.

The 9th degree is not extremely harmonically important in that chord. The 11th and the 7th are the most important for that extention. And obviously the third and usually root, if you have to play it.
#6
CEGA#F


What?
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#7
I think it depends upon how you interpret chords, not on how musical the name is (although i only mean in terms of nitpicking, obviously many names could be chosen which just sound silly). If I saw a C11 chord, I would generally omit the 3rd and the 9th to create a nicer voicing (major 3rd and 11th...). Whereas I think C7 add11 would make me inclined to retain the 3rd as i'd think of my usual C7 voicing (with the 3rd) and then adding the 11th.
#8
Quote by Archeo Avis
What?



He wrote down the notes for the wrong chord.

I know with the enharmonic stuff it's actually Bb, but I thought he might read over it so I put down A# because it sticks out more.


I know ur smart enough to understand what I meant, don't try to flamebait me, i'm not 15 anymore, thank you.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 28, 2009,
#9
an "add" chord is different that a regular chord in some ways.

If you have "C9," it contains C, it's third, fifth, seventh and 9th. if you have a "Cadd9" you have the C, it's third, fifth, NO seventh, and the added 9th. it's called an "add" chord because you have added the 9th without continuing the pattern of stacked thirds, like in the C9 chord.

same goes for add11 chords. the "add" means that something between the highest note and the fifth has been omitted.

and yeah, in strict theory terms, you should have your notes going from lowest at the root to highest at the "11" or whatever your high note is for a given chord.
#10
Quote by xxdarrenxx
He wrote down the notes for the wrong chord.

I know with the enharmonic stuff it's actually Bb, but I thought he might read over it so I put down A# because it sticks out more.


I know ur smart enough to understand what I meant, don't try to flamebait me, i'm not 15 anymore, thank you.

No, you wrote down the notes for the wrong chord. An A doesn't enter any C chord until you make it a 13th. You make chords out of triads. You have to write it as a Bb in order for it to be correct. Don't try and take liberties in teaching if you're going to teach the wrong thing.


EDIT:
To TS, the voicing all depends on what you want to achieve. You want your most dissonant intervals to be within the inner voices as a general rule of thumb.
Last edited by JakdOnCrack at Jan 28, 2009,
#11
Quote by JakdOnCrack
No, you wrote down the notes for the wrong chord. An A doesn't enter any C chord until you make it a 13th. You make chords out of triads. You have to write it as a Bb in order for it to be correct. Don't try and take liberties in teaching if you're going to teach the wrong thing.


correct-a-mundo. the devil is in the details, and nobody benefits from a half-truth. it's like saying: "my name is Tom, spelled T-o-m. but if you want, you can spell it S-o-m."

notes are named in context of their key. that's why enharmonic note names were created. plus, in standard notation, it becomes frustrating to have to score two different notes on the same line of the staff, with different accidentals. and how would you write your key signature if you have sharps AND flats in your key? as you can see, a small problem can cause bigger problems down the road. Intervals and note names are the musical alphabet, and you need to know how to use the "letters" correctly in order to write with them.
#12
Quote by JakdOnCrack
No, you wrote down the notes for the wrong chord. An A doesn't enter any C chord until you make it a 13th. You make chords out of triads. You have to write it as a Bb in order for it to be correct. Don't try and take liberties in teaching if you're going to teach the wrong thing.


EDIT:
To TS, the voicing all depends on what you want to achieve. You want your most dissonant intervals to be within the inner voices as a general rule of thumb.


Wow didn't you read past the first sentence?

I said I know it's Bb, I just wanted to make sure he played the right note aurally since we are talking about voicings.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#13
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Wow didn't you read past the first sentence?

I said I know it's Bb, I just wanted to make sure he played the right note aurally since we are talking about voicings.


wrong note name = wrong note name

there is no reason why you couldn't have written Bb, and no reason why writing in an incorrect A# was a better idea.

life does not end when you get proven wrong in an internet forum.
#14
Quote by frigginjerk
wrong note name = wrong note name

there is no reason why you couldn't have written Bb, and no reason why writing in an incorrect A# was a better idea.

life does not end when you get proven wrong in an internet forum.



I never said I was right

I am talking russian? )#*%)@*%#*) lol?

I just wanted to make sure he saw that it was the wrong note aurally, because the subject is on voicings which is an aural oriented question.

TS writing down A# is Theoretically wrong, it's Bb!!


Problem solved?

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 28, 2009,
#15
whatever. i bet you don't post that advice again, though. and even when you're talking about voicings, you still call the notes by their proper names. in context, it is NOT an A# in any way.
#16
Quote by frigginjerk
whatever. i bet you don't post that advice again, though.


??

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#17
Quote by xxdarrenxx
??


sorry, UG has been slow in my area lately, so i've been posting and editing as i go, so as not to lose large posts to server errors.

anyways, if you really knew the correct terminology at the outset, AND why it's important to always use correct terminology, you never would have typed A#. the point is way past argued right now, and you're clearly just trying to save face by making it look like we all misunderstood you.

i will stop posting in this thread now, as it's already been solved, and now we're just fighting. happy trails to you.
#18
Quote by frigginjerk
sorry, UG has been slow in my area lately, so i've been posting and editing as i go, so as not to lose large posts to server errors.

anyways, if you really knew the correct terminology at the outset, AND why it's important to always use correct terminology, you never would have typed A#. the point is way past argued right now, and you're clearly just trying to save face by making it look like we all misunderstood you.

i will stop posting in this thread now, as it's already been solved, and now we're just fighting. happy trails to you.



I know it's wrong, I made a lot of posts in other threads regarding this, go find them or something.

Okay so I made a "style" error apologies for that then.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#20
You could have bolded it like you had the A#, which would have corrected him correctly.
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
#21
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
this little thread just moves 1 step closer to proving that theory is simple, dont forget that modes = scales! WHo wANTS TO ARGuE WITH ME RAWRRRR


Scales in general are at the rock bottom of the music theory ladder. Try doing a formal analysis of a romantic work and telling me that theory is easy.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#22
Fine, ill take it back, but can u tell me 1 big word you would use when writing a formal nalaysis of a romantic work, just out of curiousity, im not tryint to say im super smart or anything, just want to know how "hard" it can get at its hardest, or advancest or complexest
#23
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
Fine, ill take it back, but can u tell me 1 big word you would use when writing a formal nalaysis of a romantic work, just out of curiousity, im not tryint to say im super smart or anything, just want to know how "hard" it can get at its hardest, or advancest or complexest


It's not about hard words, it's about being able to analyze a piece of music and determine the functions of its component parts. Big words have nothing to do with it.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#24
Quote by Archeo Avis
It's not about hard words, it's about being able to analyze a piece of music and determine the functions of its component parts. Big words have nothing to do with it.



im guessing because us said "romantic piece" im assuming a romantic piece is much more complex compared to other genres, do uknow any that sounds nice, or that would usually b used in formal writin?

ive never listened to a romantic piece adn i would like a recommendation pweaseee..
#25
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
im guessing because us said "romantic piece" im assuming a romantic piece is much more complex compared to other genres, do uknow any that sounds nice, or that would usually b used in formal writin?

ive never listened to a romantic piece adn i would like a recommendation pweaseee..


Chopin and Scriabin are two of the most well known. Go on youtube and look up Scriabin's Etude Opus 8 No. 12.

EDIT: Linky...

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=pPTe1xMB9Uk
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Last edited by Archeo Avis at Jan 29, 2009,
#26
Quote by Sam_Vimes
I think it depends upon how you interpret chords, not on how musical the name is (although i only mean in terms of nitpicking, obviously many names could be chosen which just sound silly). If I saw a C11 chord, I would generally omit the 3rd and the 9th to create a nicer voicing (major 3rd and 11th...). Whereas I think C7 add11 would make me inclined to retain the 3rd as i'd think of my usual C7 voicing (with the 3rd) and then adding the 11th.

C11 needs the third it is important to the tonality of the chord.

Leaving out the third makes it a C7sus4.

No, the voicing, where the note appears in the chord, doesn't really affect the name. The presence of other notes does.

So C7sus4 contains the notes C F G Bb
You could voice that in a number of different ways. Though it's not really wrong to call the F an 11th to denote that it is the highest voice. You would need to notate that there is no third. C11(no3rd) or something.

To dmirtygorachyov: Theory is easy. Until it gets hard. Theory describes music. It stands to reason that as music get's more complex the theory needed to describe it get's more complex. When the music is simple the theory is simple. The basics are pretty simple though and that's all you really need to get by - the basics.
Si
#28
Quote by 20Tigers

Leaving out the third makes it a C7sus4.

So C7sus4 contains the notes C F G Bb
You could voice that in a number of different ways. Though it's not really wrong to call the F an 11th to denote that it is the highest voice. You would need to notate that there is no third. C11(no3rd) or something.


I noticed you brought up sus chords... that brings up another question.

You're C7sus4 contains the notes of the C7add11 minus teh third... is that what sus chords are? If I were to do GM7sus4 would it be G D F# C?

Are there also sus6, or other chords similar to that?
#29
Quote by DiminishedFifth
I noticed you brought up sus chords... that brings up another question.

You're C7sus4 contains the notes of the C7add11 minus teh third... is that what sus chords are? If I were to do GM7sus4 would it be G D F# C?

Are there also sus6, or other chords similar to that?



Sus2 is maj3rd 2 semitones lowered, and Sus4 is a maj3rd a semitone raised.

these are the only 2 sus chords

Add2 (add9) and add4 (add11) is where u add these notes.

C E G = C Major
C D G = Csus2
C F G = Csus4

C D E G = Cadd9
C E F G = Cadd11

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 29, 2009,
#30
Quote by DiminishedFifth
I noticed you brought up sus chords... that brings up another question.

You're C7sus4 contains the notes of the C7add11 minus teh third... is that what sus chords are? If I were to do GM7sus4 would it be G D F# C?

Are there also sus6, or other chords similar to that?


a sus chord is any chord that has had it's third removed in favour of a 2nd or a 4th, hence the names "sus2" and "sus4."

your 'GM7sus4' chord name is a little wonky, but your notes are correct. since a sus chord, by definition, has no third, it is neither major nor minor, and would be written as G7sus4. though a 4th and an 11th are the same note in theory, you'll probably want to play the 4th as low as possible in your chord, so that it sounds more like a 4th than an 11th.
#31
Quote by frigginjerk
a sus chord is any chord that has had it's third removed in favour of a 2nd or a 4th, hence the names "sus2" and "sus4."

your 'GM7sus4' chord name is a little wonky, but your notes are correct. since a sus chord, by definition, has no third, it is neither major nor minor, and would be written as G7sus4.


^post fixed.
Reason = GM7sus = 1 4 5 7
G7sus = 1 4 5 b7

Otherwise the post is spot on.

Sus = suspended. In classical music it is a specific technique used in a chord progression. It contains three parts a preparation a suspension and a resolve. It describes a technique where a note is held over (or suspended) from a previous chord in place of one of the notes of the new chord. It then resolves up or down a semitone to complete the new chord.

For example look at this chord change

Simple D to A and in between is an Asus4 chord. The D note is "prepared" in the D chord and then held over suspending the C# creating a tension. Finally the D moves down a semitone to the C# of the final A chord - the suspension is resolved.

Traditionally any chord tone could be suspended even the root since suspension was a term describing a specific technique rather than a chord. Though most often it was the third. The traditional guidelines were that a sus2 chord would used to resolve into a minor chord by the 2nd moving up semitone and a sus4 chord would used to resolve into a major third by moving down a semitone.

But in popular usage it has now come to be the common name for a chord in which the 3rd is simply replaced by either the 2nd or the 4th. It doesn't need a preparation or even a resolve. They're just chords to be used in anyway you see fit.

sus on it's own implies sus4 where as the sus2 chord is pretty much always written as sus2.

But it's good to know the classical meaning of the term too cause it broadens your mind and you won't be confused if someone uses it in the classical context.

Four examples off the top of my head of songs that feature sus chords are...
Babe I'm Gonna Leave You - Led Zep (sus4 with minor3rd)
Believe - Lenny Kravitz - (uses both sus2 and sus4 with major3rd - main riff)
Street Spirit (Fade Out) by Radiohead (uses both sus2 and sus4 chord with minor 3rd)
Tangled Up in Blue by Bob Dylan (A Asus4 A in the intro)
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Jan 29, 2009,
#32
Quote by 20Tigers
^post fixed.
Reason = GM7sus = 1 4 5 7
G7sus = 1 4 5 b7

Otherwise the post is spot on.


i thought the "m" in chord names refers only to the quality of the third... meaning if there's no third, we'd need to notate the seventh differently.

i'm a bit stumped. chord naming always brings up such weird considerations. is there a different way to refer to the seventh in a sus chord name? or do you have to use the "m" despite there being no third?
Last edited by frigginjerk at Jan 29, 2009,
#33
i thought the "m" in chord names refers only to the quality of the third... meaning if there's no third, we'd need to notate the seventh differently.


The seventh is assumed to be minor unless specifically stated otherwise. Anytime you see "maj7" or "M7", it indicates that a major seventh is to be used.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#34
Quote by Archeo Avis
The seventh is assumed to be minor unless specifically stated otherwise. Anytime you see "maj7" or "M7", it indicates that a major seventh is to be used.


cool. i guess if it's also a sus chord, we can assume there's no third, so the "M" would have to apply to the seventh. got it.