#1
So i'm playing these chords; Am - C - Em - Gm. What key am I in? Am?
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#2
F Major is closer, I think... but the chord progression doesn't really appear to resolve to any particular chord.
#3
Would a Gmaj fit better?
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#5
What type of G would fit best?
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#6
Quote by Jango22
What type of G would fit best?


Make the G a major chord, and it's in the key of Am

Although if you wanna use the Gm chord it's fine. It's cool and adds a nice little twist.

Make the progression; Am - C - Gm - F ...And its in the key of F Major.

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#7
^Yeah I didn't like the Gm when I played the progression it just sounded off.

With the G major it's kind of tonally ambiguous.

The progression Am C Em G is just going up in thirds.

Depending on how you play the chords - how long you stay on each one and on your "harmonic phrasing" it could be in Am C Em or G.

It sounds kind of static and stable but not really going anywhere - but don't think that is a bad thing. I feel it would work very well contrasted against a second part that has some strong dynamic movement.

EDIT: To show why it's tonally ambiguous you could keep the pattern going and do Am C Em G Bm D F#m A C#m E#...etc etc. Rather than building tension the progression is a cycle in thirds that seems to be forever closing in on the tonic but provides no clear identity on it's own. You can get off at any point if you do it right

For example if you ride it round to the D chord then hop off by moving up a whole step to E maj it resolves well back to the Am.
Am C Em G Bm D E E7

or something whatever you like really. It's pretty cool what you got there though. It got me playing around with it.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Jan 30, 2009,
#8
Quote by 20Tigers
^Yeah I didn't like the Gm when I played the progression it just sounded off.

With the G major it's kind of tonally ambiguous.

The progression Am C Em G is just going up in thirds.

Depending on how you play the chords - how long you stay on each one and on your "harmonic phrasing" it could be in Am C Em or G.

It sounds kind of static and stable but not really going anywhere - but don't think that is a bad thing. I feel it would work very well contrasted against a second part that has some strong dynamic movement.


Agreed, but I wasn't in the mood for one of my uber long styled posts, so I kept it super basic.

With that progression I can write at least 5 pages of what you can do with it.

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#9
Yeah you sure can do a lot with it. ~See my edit above just to start with.

But I was just saying the Gm didn't sit well with me the way the TS had it originally.

The progression you suggested dropping the Em and putting an F on the end works well though with the Gm. I got some rocking rhythms out of that progression (Am C Gm F). I might use it for something too.
Si
#10
Quote by 20Tigers
Yeah you sure can do a lot with it. ~See my edit above just to start with.

But I was just saying the Gm didn't sit well with me the way the TS had it originally.

The progression you suggested dropping the Em and putting an F on the end works well though with the Gm. I got some rocking rhythms out of that progression (Am C Gm F). I might use it for something too.


Ye I like that too, but I have an altered one which provides far more note choices and is something what I'd do

Am7 - C - Gm7 - F

A bit fusion style, and you can really do interesting stuff on the m7 alterations.

Diatonically these chords are all from the F Major scale, however aurally they are open for other note choices.

Am7 - C use (A Dorian) and for Gm7 - F (G dorian)

Try it out

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 30, 2009,
#11
Aminor
Bdiminished
Cmajor
Dminor
Eminor
Fmajor
Gmajor


A B C D E F G A = A minor scale


A,C and F all come from that scale.


However the Gminor is a nice touch.


G Bb D = Gminor


So its a flat 2nd in the scale Which is Phyrgian mode if I'm not mistaken?


Anyone confirm that, im curious myself
#12
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Ye I like that too, but I have an altered one which provides far more note choices and is something what I'd do

Am7 - C - Gm7 - F

A bit fusion style, and you can really do interesting stuff on the m7 alterations.

Diatonically these chords are all from the F Major scale, however aurally they are open for other note choices.

Am7 - C use (A Dorian) and for Gm7 - F (G dorian)

Try it out

Yeah that is really nice

I'm mixing in a simple diatonic sub to get
Am7 - C - Gm7 - Bb
Am7 - C - Gm7 - F x2 for a verse

Then something like
C - Bb - Bbm - F for a chorus and you've pretty much got yourself a song lol.

I'm doing all E shape barre chords and it's testing the stamina in my forearm for sure.

It could do with a middle 8 though. Maybe a slowed down Gm Am or something.
Si
#13
Yeah, I chose the Gm because the major sounded too bright for what I was going for. But now i'm all confused XD i don't know much about theory...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I threw a G# in there, would the A melodic minor scale fit?
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#14
Quote by rocknrollstar
Aminor
Bdiminished
Cmajor
Dminor
Eminor
Fmajor
Gmajor


It should be:

Am
Bdim
Caug
Dm
Emaj
Fmaj
Gdim
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#15
Quote by Jango22
Yeah, I chose the Gm because the major sounded too bright for what I was going for. But now i'm all confused XD i don't know much about theory...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I threw a G# in there, would the A melodic minor scale fit?


Not quite. G#dim would fit with Melodic Minor. G# will have G# B# D#. Melodic minor = A B C D E F# G# A

Don't worry too much as to whether it "fits" theoretically.

Darren liked the Gm I didn't - music (all art) is like that.

If it sounds good to you then you're on the right track.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Jan 31, 2009,
#16
Quote by Jango22
So i'm playing these chords; Am - C - Em - Gm. What key am I in? Am?
That progression doesn't resolve anywhere, but it uses all the notes of the F major scale.
Quote by Jango22
Would a Gmaj fit better?
Not really, that still wouldn't resolve that well.
Quote by Darren
Am - C - Gm - F
That still doesn't resolve
Quote by Darren
Am7 - C - Gm7 - F
That still doesn't resolve
Quote by 20tigers
Not quite. G#dim would fit with Melodic Minor. G# will have G# B# D#. Melodic minor = A B C D E F# G# A
No, he's right. When writing minor melodies, you use a mixture of all minor scales.

When writing minor progressions, you resolve by V7 - i movement. In the Aminor scale, this means going from E7 to Am. Anything you do after that Am and before that E7 is up to you. I'd recommend a predominant though.
Quote by 20tigers
Don't worry too much as to whether it "fits" theoretically.
It's not that it's "theoretically" wrong, it's that it doesn't resolve. If you analyse enough music, you'll realise that somethings work and resolve and somethings don't.
        ,
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[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
#17
Demon, you read half, the m7th subs were towarded 20tigers not TS.

Music is still an art, I only gave suggestions on what he could try, and let his ear be the judge.

Quote by xxdarrenxx
Make the G a major chord, and it's in the key of Am

Although if you wanna use the Gm chord it's fine. It's cool and adds a nice little twist.

Make the progression; Am - C - Gm - F ...And its in the key of F Major.



Where did I say it resolves? I just made the progressions diatonic.

Saying TS should change the sounds because it doesn't fit theoretically is elitist. It's these things that shaped music as equally as the theoretic conventions. Saying 1 is more important then the other (style vs theoretically correct) is not objective at all from an "Art" perspective.

Scientifically speaking ur right, but regarding music purely as science is not objective in the practical use of things (which is implied since he wrote the progression presumably to use for a song of his)

First progression if you end the progression on a C chord then it's C Major.

Last progression is open for suggestion.

Please don't give answers based on implying that I said that, thank you

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 31, 2009,
#18
Quote by demonofthenight

No, he's right. When writing minor melodies, you use a mixture of all minor scales.

I don't know who you are talking about when you say he's right are you saying "no" agreeing with my "no" or are you saying "no" what I said was wrong??
Quote by demonofthenight
When writing minor progressions, you resolve by V7 - i movement. In the Aminor scale, this means going from E7 to Am. Anything you do after that Am and before that E7 is up to you. I'd recommend a predominant though.
It's not that it's "theoretically" wrong, it's that it doesn't resolve.

V7-I or V7-i is the most powerful resolution in music today.

But you seem to be implying all music must have this resolution to "work". This is just bullshit.

Take off your blinkers man there's a whole world of music to be discovered other than V7-i.

If you read the TS original post and the following responses with a desire to understand then you would see that the particular progression the TS put forward was one he was happy with Am C Em Gm - he just wanted to know what key it was in.

It was explained to him what key this could be described as and also that it was tonally ambiguous - (that is not really offering a tonal centre).

A perfectly reasonable analysis of what seems to be the underlying theme of the progression was offered - namely it is built off a kind of cycle of thirds progression that instead of resolving to a tonal centre feels like it is continuously homing in on a tonal centre but never actually getting there.

He was shown ways in which the progression could be made more tonally centred around that Am chord. He was also shown ways in which he could retain the tonal ambiguity but make the chords fit within one or several keys.

Variations on the chord progression were then discussed and this may have confused the TS a little but it was constructive conversation sparked by a good idea in the first place.

Quote by demonofthenight
If you analyse enough music, you'll realise that somethings work and resolve and somethings don't.
How do you know how much music I have analyzed?? Are you saying you have realized this little gem on your own and that when I'm as experienced as you I will come to realize how right you are?? If that's not what you are saying then please tell me exactly how was I meant to take interpret that line?

I have analyzed enough music to know that somethings are tonally ambiguous and still "work" very well. Some music doesn't contain a dominant chord at all yet still manages to provide powerful tension and resolution to the tonic.

Try reading through the thread again very slowly. This time when you read it - instead of looking for ways to respond to what people are saying - read to try to understand what they mean by what they are saying. Then if you have something positive to say or something helpful go for gold.


EDIT: as to Am C Em Gm having all the notes of F major (except F)- it also has all the notes of C major G major and the relative minors of those keys. It also has extras - There is a B in the Em that is out of key in F major. There is a Bb which is out of key in C and G major and their relative minors.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Jan 31, 2009,
#20
Quote by rocknrollstar
Why Caug? There is no G# in A minor.


There is in A harmonic minor. But then the Gdim should be a G#dim.
#21
Quote by rocknrollstar
Aminor
Bdiminished
Cmajor
Dminor
Eminor
Fmajor
Gmajor


A B C D E F G A = A minor scale


A,C and F all come from that scale.


However the Gminor is a nice touch.


G Bb D = Gminor


So its a flat 2nd in the scale Which is Phyrgian mode if I'm not mistaken?

That is one way of looking at it.

If you're happy jumping between the B and Bb then you could use the Bb to make the second chord -the Bdim- into a Bb major. - Not that there is a Bdim chord in the progression but I guess you'll know what I mean.

Just a thought.

EDIT: By the way those chords are definitely right for Am. I'm not sure I understand the other guy's chords since the roots suggest Am but the chords are all wrong.

Harmonic Minor is usually just a Maj V chord. But harmonized it's something like
Am Bdimm Caug Dm Emaj Fmaj G#dim. idk
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Jan 31, 2009,
#22
Quote by michal23
There is in A harmonic minor. But then the Gdim should be a G#dim.



Didn't realise we were talking about a different scale


But yeah A harmonic minor = A B C D E F G# A right?
#23
Quote by 20Tigers
That is one way of looking at it.

If you're happy jumping between the B and Bb then you could use the Bb to make the second chord -the Bdim- into a Bb major. - Not that there is a Bdim chord in the progression but I guess you'll know what I mean.

Just a thought.

EDIT: By the way those chords are definitely right for Am. I'm not sure I understand the other guy's chords since the roots suggest Am but the chords are all wrong.

Harmonic Minor is usually just a Maj V chord. But harmonized it's something like
Am Bm Caug Dm Emaj Fmaj G#dim. idk



I know what you mean about the Bb gives it a little colour.


Yeah I think he built his chords on the A Harmonic Minor Scale, he sounds like he knows what he means so thats the main thing, were all quite on the ball for it being 1pm were I am anyway lol.
#24
Quote by rocknrollstar
Didn't realise we were talking about a different scale


But yeah A harmonic minor = A B C D E F G# A right?


Yeah you're right. Although quite often the harmonic minor and natural minor will be mixed, as the harmonic scale isn't so much as scale as it is a concept.
#25
Sorry to be off-topic, but I just had to get this off my chest:


Quote by 20Tigers

V7-I or V7-i is the most powerful resolution in music today.

But you seem to be implying all music must have this resolution to "work". This is just bullshit.

Take off your blinkers man there's a whole world of music to be discovered other than V7-i.



Word, +999, qft and whatnot! I don't know how many times a day I get frustrated at the obsession with V7-i movements. I mean, I love them, but just take a look at a lot of types of scandinavian and irish folk music, you get VII-i movements everywhere you go (well not really, but you get the picture ).

Once again, sorry for being off-topic, but you put words to something I've been thinking a lot of times, 20Tigers!
#26
G# is in A Melodic Minor also, hence my asking whether G# would fit better in the progression. Only difference between A harmonic and A melodic is the F# in the melodic, compared to the F natural in harmonic.
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#27
Quote by michal23
There is in A harmonic minor. But then the Gdim should be a G#dim.


Yeah A harmonic minor. And since Am is the relative minor of Cmaj, I'm pretty sure it should be Cmaj.

No?
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#28
Quote by Oblivion_Rps
Yeah A harmonic minor. And since Am is the relative minor of Cmaj, I'm pretty sure it should be Cmaj.

No?

The chords seemed to all be derived from the A harmonic minor scale (albeit some of them wrongly) so any G in a chord would be sharp, making it C E G# which is C aug.

However, harmonic minor is rarely used throughout a song (you'll find C major much more than C aug), instead it is usually used to give the strong resolution of the V-i progression.
#29
Quote by 12345abcd3
The chords seemed to all be derived from the A harmonic minor scale (albeit some of them wrongly) so any G in a chord would be sharp, making it C E G# which is C aug.

However, harmonic minor is rarely used throughout a song (you'll find C major much more than C aug), instead it is usually used to give the strong resolution of the V-i progression.


I get it.

Thanks for explaining.
May the Force be with You.
Carmel is hawt
#30
Quote by rocknrollstar
Why Caug? There is no G# in A minor.


The seventh scale degree is often raised in a minor key. I would use C major instead of C+ but you can use the augmented chord if you want. I was taught the chords of the minor scale as....

i (minor) iio(diminished) III(major) iv(minor) V(major) VI (major) viio(diminished)