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#1
Please help me out with the chords in D dorian.

I know that I is Dm...
And i think IV is Gmaj and VII is Cmaj.

Listing the others and/or correcting these for me, (if they need it,) would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks.
#4
There are no "chords in D dorian" - at least not in the conventional sense, modes don't work the same way as keys. Your best bet is simply to use the notes over a static backing of Dm7. It is possible to throw another chord or perhaps two into the mix as a vamp but the more chords you have the more likely you are to simply end up with something in C major.

You can't just "decide" to use D Dorian, you need to create the right harmonic context by fixing D as your tonal centre.
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Last edited by steven seagull at Feb 3, 2009,
#6
Quote by michal23
Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C.


^ These are the chords you get when you harmonize the D dorian scale..... "the chords in D dorian".

Quote by Butt Rayge
Please help me out with the chords in D dorian.

I know that I is Dm...
And i think IV is Gmaj and VII is Cmaj.

Listing the others and/or correcting these for me, (if they need it,) would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks.


You got the idea. Same chords as C Major only dm = i ( and so on from there).

btw contrary to whats been said, I have a theory book that labels them with roman numerals. It also explains that the use of modes in this way became a common way for composers to free themselves of the limitations of strictly using the Major / minor keys.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 3, 2009,
#7
Quote by steven seagull
There are no "chords in D dorian" - at least not in the conventional sense, modes don't work the same way as keys. Your best bet is simply to use the notes over a static backing of Dm7. It is possible to throw another chord or perhaps two into the mix as a vamp but the more chords you have the more likely you are to simply end up with something in C major.

You can't just "decide" to use D Dorian, you need to create the right harmonic context by fixing D as your tonal centre.


There's quite a bit of folk music in dorian mode that uses chord progressions. Usually very simple, but still almost never with less than 3 chord (often i, III and VII or i, IV and VII). All in all, dorian can be used kind of like a key. Also, what do you mean you can't "decide" to use D dorian? Obviously D will have to be the tonal centre, but what's that got to do with anything? The tonal centre can be established without a droning backing chord. Sorry if I'm missing something obvious here.

To TS: I take it you're going to write either folk metal or folk music in dorian (based on your threads in T&C ). You'd probably be best of using the i, III, IV and VI chords to create that kind of folk feel. In D dorian these are Dm, F, G and C.

Also, you can borrow the VI from the parallel* minor mode, D minor, for nice effect, (the Bb chord) although the piece wouldn't be considered wholy modal then but rather in D minor using the occasional (or always occuring) major 6 in the melody.


* or is it relative? The whole parallel vs relative is usually reverse in swedish regarding music, hence my confusion.

EDIT: clarified part
Last edited by descara at Feb 3, 2009,
#9
Quote by steven seagull
There are no "chords in D dorian" - at least not in the conventional sense, modes don't work the same way as keys. Your best bet is simply to use the notes over a static backing of Dm7. It is possible to throw another chord or perhaps two into the mix as a vamp but the more chords you have the more likely you are to simply end up with something in C major.

You can't just "decide" to use D Dorian, you need to create the right harmonic context by fixing D as your tonal centre.

By the way, for a vamp like that, would a Dm6 work as well?
#11
^That doesn't really resolve to Dm. It resolves to G mixolydian more than anything.
Quote by steven seagull
There are no "chords in D dorian" - at least not in the conventional sense, modes don't work the same way as keys. Your best bet is simply to use the notes over a static backing of Dm7. It is possible to throw another chord or perhaps two into the mix as a vamp but the more chords you have the more likely you are to simply end up with something in C major.

You can't just "decide" to use D Dorian, you need to create the right harmonic context by fixing D as your tonal centre.
This

Using C major in your progression will probably establish C major as the tonal center. Avoid it.

If you must have a progression, keep it simple. Real modal music is archaic and probably evolved at a time in which chords were still being theorised. I'd suggest a simple i-v progression. So in "D dorian" this would be an Dm-Am progression.
        ,
        |\
[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
#13
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Are you kidding? i IV7 is the classic dorian progression.
Please check the voiceleading and actually listen to it.

To resolve (as in sound finished) a progression, the second last chord should (preferably) have the leading tone (or the seventh note of the scale) and the second note of the scale. So, in D dorian the second last chord should have a C and an E in it, which looks like an Am chord. In G mixolydian the second last chord should have an F and an A, which could either be an F chord or a Dminor chord.

So why is the i - IV7 a classical dorian progression?
        ,
        |\
[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
#14
Quote by steven seagull
There are no "chords in D dorian" - at least not in the conventional sense, modes don't work the same way as keys. Your best bet is simply to use the notes over a static backing of Dm7. It is possible to throw another chord or perhaps two into the mix as a vamp but the more chords you have the more likely you are to simply end up with something in C major.

You can't just "decide" to use D Dorian, you need to create the right harmonic context by fixing D as your tonal centre.

D always sounds like the tonal centre whenever i play the song. it always resolves on D.


Quote by descara
There's quite a bit of folk music in dorian mode that uses chord progressions. Usually very simple, but still almost never with less than 3 chord (often i, III and VII or i, IV and VII). All in all, dorian can be used kind of like a key. Also, what do you mean you can't "decide" to use D dorian? Obviously D will have to be the tonal centre, but what's that got to do with anything? The tonal centre can be established without a droning backing chord. Sorry if I'm missing something obvious here.

To TS: I take it you're going to write either folk metal or folk music in dorian (based on your threads in T&C ). You'd probably be best of using the i, III, IV and VI chords to create that kind of folk feel. In D dorian these are Dm, F, G and C.

Also, you can borrow the VI from the parallel* minor mode, D minor, for nice effect, (the Bb chord) although the piece wouldn't be considered wholy modal then but rather in D minor using the occasional (or always occuring) major 6 in the melody.


* or is it relative? The whole parallel vs relative is usually reverse in swedish regarding music, hence my confusion.

EDIT: clarified part

Exactly, i can't think of anything worse.

It is a folk song, yes. I've got a progression of Dm, C, G and i need a fourth (for a particular phrase)... F hasn't been woking for me. In fact, i've tried Am and Em aswell and they don't seem to cut it.
#15
Quote by demonofthenight
^That doesn't really resolve to Dm. It resolves to G mixolydian more than anything.This



Dude.

Dorian is established with that sound. IT doesn't resolve anywhere, it's just static with barely any movement.

the G7 misleads as acting like a V chord and you'd expect an I chord after that, but instead you get Dm7 which is like z0mg that's not the I chord, but your ears dont die either, thus D Dorian is established.

Sue made a perfectly fine example of D Dorian.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 4, 2009,
#16
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Dude.

Dorian is established with that sound. IT doesn't resolve anywhere, it's just static with barely any movement.

the G7 misleads as acting like a V chord and you'd expect an I chord after that, but instead you get Dm7 which is like z0mg that's not the I chord, but your ears dont die either, thus D Dorian is established.

Sue made a perfectly fine example of D Dorian.
Once again, voiceleading and not all dominant chords have to be functioning dominant chords.

Progressions don't need to move anywhere. All they need to do is support a melody.
        ,
        |\
[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
#17
No one's mentioned the fact that the G7 in Sue's example contains the note B.

TS, try using Bm7b5 aswell. The ii and viio chord (or i and vio chord in this case) have many common tones.
Last edited by mdc at Feb 4, 2009,
#18
Quote by demonofthenight
Once again, voiceleading and not all dominant chords have to be functioning dominant chords.

Progressions don't need to move anywhere. All they need to do is support a melody.


??

You didn't give any valid reason that the G7 should act as a tonic chord.

Major chord is 1st in resolvance, then Minor, and dominant after that (and lastly diminished, but this is near impossible to resolve on).

I'd say that's a very legit D Dorian vamp.

Only the root note leads into a V7 - I like structure, but in this case it's a v - I7, which is definitely different.

don't you agree an V - ii movement is far more logical then a v - I7 movement?

Yes it could potential go either way, but that can do with all music. It's just far easier to use the m7 chord as tonal centre then the Dominant chord as tonal centre.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 4, 2009,
#19
Tonal progressions will most likely have some kind of "harmonic movement", because they're functional harmony.

Modal "progressions" most likely won't have harmonic movement because they are "dysfunctional" and are just there to compensate for the modal note(s).

Innit?
#20
Quote by mdc
try using Bm7b5 aswell. The ii and viio chord (or i and vio chord in this case) have many common tones.
They do contan many common tones, but this is a terrible idea. The diminished chord will completely destroy the modal harmony and send you into C major. Avoid diminished chords when working with modes.
#21
I've been playing around with the Dorian recently in Open-G (very nice shapes in that mode and that tuning btw), and I'm convinced you can throw in all the chords and still make it resolve properly to the root.

I mean if you've got a simple four chords repeating you've got to be careful about what you put in there (the dominant chord is very iffy, as it sounds like the tonic to the natural minor), but with more chords and some kind of structure you can let it be ambiguous for a few bars and still resolve it later.

My latest thing started to sound a bit metal-ish, or I guess folk-metal-ish, which I wasn't too happy about to begin with, but then I thought sod it and I went with it. In G minor of course. The verse is just Gm with the occasional F (the subtonic is very much like a dominant chord in the minor modes - it leads very nicely to the tonic), with a Bb - F - Gm at the end of a phrase (that's the bit that sounds a bit metal-ish).

Then for the chorus I went Am - Bb - C - Dm (starting to sound like D natural minor), then C - Bb - Am7 - Bb - F - Gm (properly back where we wanted to be).

That's using every chord other than the E diminished at some point. Not sure how I'd fit that one in actually, so you might be right about leaving out the diminished chords. Still, you can fit all the others in and still keep a sense of where you are.
#23
^^ agreed

Quote by anotherbluesguy


Then for the chorus I went Am - Bb - C - Dm (starting to sound like D natural minor), then C - Bb - Am7 - Bb - F - Gm (properly back where we wanted to be).


IT already is resolved on the F chord

and by adding that Gm chord you lead into resolving on it's relative minor which is Dm, although this is a bit ambiguous, with all the previous chords.

It's basically key of F Major with 2 chord forcefully added to the end to put it in Dm, but F Major still gets my vote

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 5, 2009,
#25
Quote by anotherbluesguy
It most certainly does resolve to Gm when I play it. Maybe it's the rhythm or the little licks in between the chords, but whatever, it does.



Then record it.

I bet no matter how you record, I can always play a F or Dm chord at then end of it, and it will sound more complete.

Resolving and ending are 2 different things.

Then you subconsciously hearing it or you hear something 200 billion people didn't hear in the last 500 years, which could objectively speaking be true, but I don't think so.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 5, 2009,
#26
Quote by bangoodcharlote
They do contan many common tones, but this is a terrible idea. The diminished chord will completely destroy the modal harmony and send you into C major. Avoid diminished chords when working with modes.

Fair enough. Essentially that would be a vio - i movement, lol! Epic fail!

If you play Bm7b5 - Dm7 a few times so that your ear gets used to it, it sounds kinda cool... to me, lol!
#27
Quote by mdc
Fair enough. Essentially that would be a vio - i movement, lol! Epic fail!

If you play Bm7b5 - Dm7 a few times so that your ear gets used to it, it sounds kinda cool... to me, lol!


But that's because you play it a few times it will sound "Right"

But if you listen to it 2 days later it will not.

This is a psychological thing, ur brain doesn't recognize mistakes, it just learns what you tell it to learn.

Or in this case what you force ur brain to hear, untill you "hear it".

Bm7b5 - E7 - Am

try that fresh, you will like it

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 5, 2009,
#29
Quote by mdc
I play that one a lot man, classic Harmonic Minor shizzle!


fo sure!


Jup jup, this is part of the reason harmonic minor works.

normal V I ends on major, but with the diminished chord in front of it, it works on a minor resolution.

It's quite beautiful how that 1 chord changes the entire tonality.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 5, 2009,
#30
Another thing I like to do is, for the V7, play the Hendrix chord, then barre with my 1st finger and remove my little finger, which'll changes the #9 to a b9, then resolve to Am, but add the B on the 7th fret top e string. Sweeeet Am9.
#31
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Then record it.

I bet no matter how you record, I can always play a F or Dm chord at then end of it, and it will sound more complete.


I wasn't gonna record it, as like I said it's a bit metal-ish and it's really not my thing. If I have time I will though. I have a tab of it lying around if that helps (it's a bit old so I might have changed it a little bit since I wrote the tab):

Intro:

D|-------------------------3-------------
B|-----3-----------------3---5p3-5p3---3-
G|---3---3-5p3p0---0---3-------------5---
D|---------------3-----------------------
G|-0-----------------0-------------------
D|---------------------------------------

D|---------3-5p3-------------------------------
B|-------3-------5/6-6-6-5-----3---------------
G|-----3---------------------3---3-5p3p0-------
D|---------------------------------------------
G|-0-3-------------5-------0-------------3p0---
D|-------------------------------------------3-


Verse:

D|----------------------------------------------------
B|-3---3-x-3---3-3---3-3----3---3-x-3---3-3---3-3-----
G|-3---3-x-3---3-3---3-3----3---3-x-3---3-3---3-3-----
D|-0---0-x-0---0-0---0-0----0---0-x-0---0-0---0-0-----
G|-0---0-x-0---0-0---0-0----0---0-x-0---0-0---0-0-----
D|-----------------------3------------------------3---

D|----------------------------------------------
B|-3---3-x-3---3-3---3-3----3---3-x-3---3---1---
G|-3---3-x-3---3-3---3-3----3---3-x-3---3---2---
D|-0---0-x-0---0-0---0-0----0---0-x-0---3---3---
G|-0---0-x-0---0-0---0-0----0---0-x-0---3---x---
D|-----------------------3------------------3---


Chorus:

D|---------------5-5p3------------------/7-7p5-----
B|-5---5-x-3---3-------5p3-5/6p5-----6/--------6p5-
G|-5---5-x-3---3-----------3/5---7p5-7/------------
D|-2---2-x-3---3-----------------------------------
G|-2---2-x-3---3-----------3/5---------------------
D|-----------------------------------0-------------

D|---------------------------------------------
B|-5---5-x-3---5---5---x-x-3-x-1-x-3---x-------
G|-5---5-x-3---5---5---x-x-3-x-2-x-3---x-------
D|-5---5-x-3---2---2---x-x-3-x-3-x-0---x-------
G|-5---5-x-3---2---2---x-x-3-x-x-x-0---x-3p0---
D|-----------------------------3-------------3-


Then back into the intro.

Like I've said, it's occasionally hinting at Dm, but there's no way it's F. The F chord very strongly wants to go back to Gm (and that's precisely how I stop it from going to Dm).
#32
No It resolves to Dm.

Gm implies repeating it all again not ending it.

You must learn the difference to leading and resolving.

Like I said, I thrown a Dm behind the progression and it resolves.

Anything you hear, you hear subconsciously, or you hear it because you want to hear it.

The Gm after that F just makes it lead to Dm, but if you leave that chord out, it's already resolved to F.
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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 5, 2009,
#33
Hmmm, the Dm chord at the end doesn't sound right to me even on your version, but yes, I am thinking about what I'm expecting to hear. But after the verse drone, any listener will be thinking the same thing I am. This is sort of my point: if the tonic is already well established, then you can let a bit of ambiguity in and still get back to where you want to be.

I'll have to record it so you can hear what I mean. You won't really get it from the tab alone I don't think.
#34
Quote by anotherbluesguy
Hmmm, the Dm chord at the end doesn't sound right to me even on your version, but yes, I am thinking about what I'm expecting to hear. But after the verse drone, any listener will be thinking the same thing I am. This is sort of my point: if the tonic is already well established, then you can let a bit of ambiguity in and still get back to where you want to be.

I'll have to record it so you can hear what I mean. You won't really get it from the tab alone I don't think.



Resolvable means the notes lead back to the tonic. The chord are all Diatonically from the key of F or it's relative D minor. In this case the resolvance.

Even if you can't hear it, it's still logically D minor, no matter how much you drone the Gm chord. It doesn't work like that. Then ur forcing the music instead of letting the music do it's own thing.

And the part before that doesn't matter if you play Gm for 10 minutes long, it still is a gm before you go into the chorus no matter what, and the movement of the chorus still is what it is, even if you end on a Gm, it's essentially a suspense for leading into Dm.

I'm willing to hold a poll in MT on whether the Dm chord makes it resolved, but i'm pretty sure I know the outcome of that already.

It's like If I play C F G, and then play Bdim for 2 minutes. IT still doesn't make it B locrian. It just doesn't work like that.

You must understand this, music theory is based on logic and not illusion. What you try do is illusion/fool the listener, but this is not logic, but rather an imperfection in the human mind.

Just like the "Sheppard's tone" the ascending scale that always seems to ascend into eternity.

It SOUNDS like it always ascend, but it DOESN't ascend. (look it up on wikipedia)


This is the same, it may SOUND resolved, but based on logic it DOESN'T.

I can listen objectively, that's why I can transcribe almost everything so easy, I Don't let my own illusion or emotions get in the way (only if I'm in the mood for arguing with Archeo)


The mind's imperfection on this is that we learn based on memorisation, and what we ought right or wrong is based on logic made by objectivity. Once you meddle with this objectivity (what you try to do) you get imperfections and disillusions.

This is not whether ur song is good or not or if it ends, but based on theoretical logic it is what it is.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 5, 2009,
#35
Ok, I've been trying to remain polite here. I was after a simple discussion of an idea. A poll? What on Earth would that prove? I disagree with you, and thus you want to find out which of us is the more popular among the members of an internet forum? I thought this place was about discussing music, not a crude game of internet one-up-man-ship.

I won't be recording the riff (which by the way you haven't heard yet): I don't like it anyway, and I'm not going to go to such effort to prove a point to somebody who isn't interested in hearing it. Neither will I be coming back here, a place where a simple attempt at discussion so quickly dissolves into "I'm right, you're wrong" exchanges. See ya.
#36
Quote by anotherbluesguy
Ok, I've been trying to remain polite here. I was after a simple discussion of an idea. A poll? What on Earth would that prove? I disagree with you, and thus you want to find out which of us is the more popular among the members of an internet forum? I thought this place was about discussing music, not a crude game of internet one-up-man-ship.

I won't be recording the riff (which by the way you haven't heard yet): I don't like it anyway, and I'm not going to go to such effort to prove a point to somebody who isn't interested in hearing it. Neither will I be coming back here, a place where a simple attempt at discussion so quickly dissolves into "I'm right, you're wrong" exchanges. See ya.


Music theory is a science. If you wanna explain it in theory, you gotta keep to the rules of the theory, or else the theory is worth nothing, cause if music theory is based on the opinion of every musician on this planet, then it would be chaotic in a way you or I can't even imagine.

I couldn't care less who is most popular here, I'm too old for that puberal nonsense. I just said that, because you might want 2nd opinion, cause I respect that you don't 'just take my word for it'.

I didn't disrespect you in anyway man, I was just saying that music theory is based on logic and what you are doing is the product of aural illusion (and I pointed out another aural illusion which is the Sheppard's tone)]

It's even debatable if it's an aural illusion, or purely a mind illusion.

My apologies if you feel offended, don't take it so emotional okay, I never swared to you or anything.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 5, 2009,
#37
Quote by anotherbluesguy
a place where a simple attempt at discussion so quickly dissolves into "I'm right, you're wrong" exchanges. See ya.


yep.... like pretty much every time.


but hey, were all experts here, and each of us knows best.... just ask us.
#38
^ that's a bit of an overreaction, really. It's perfectly reasonable to say "I see your point, but I don't hear it. " - I learnt some things listening to Darren there, if you don't let your ego come into it you'd pick some stuff up anyway.

Anyhoo -

To resolve (as in sound finished) a progression, the second last chord should (preferably) have the leading tone (or the seventh note of the scale) and the second note of the scale. So, in D dorian the second last chord should have a C and an E in it, which looks like an Am chord. In G mixolydian the second last chord should have an F and an A, which could either be an F chord or a Dminor chord.


You've missed the whole point. Modal progressions simply don't "resolve" in the way tonal ones do. If you try to apply those rules (essentially based around V and V7 chords and substitutes) to a modal progression then you end up trying to force in conventional tonality. Which is really a non-starter.

Do you follow me ok?

Speaking of which, read this - https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187159

So why is the i - IV7 a classical dorian progression?


It's very important to point out Sue said a classic progression, not classical.

In the modern context of mode usage, when we speak about progressions that are very "X mode" what we basically are searching for is a progression that contains the characteristic degrees of that mode (essentially, the ones that are altered compared to the parallel maj/min scale) and yet does not want to resolve to the relative tonal tonics. Do you follow me?
#39
Quote by Freepower
^ that's a bit of an overreaction, really. It's perfectly reasonable to say "I see your point, but I don't hear it. " - I learnt some things listening to Darren there, if you don't let your ego come into it you'd pick some stuff up anyway.



Realizing and confirming to bluesguy that a good majority of the "discussions" quickly become a "im right and you're wrong" argument between someone has nothing to do with my ego, or what Darren has to offer. It's just me saying, "yeah I dude I hear ya.... you're right about that".

The ego is more evident when you take yourself so seriously that you can't admit it's true, and that you (and I don't mean you personally, but all of us to a certain extent) have been part of it.

I was just making light of that fact, because it is rather funny when you look at all the threads and see the same thing over and over again.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 5, 2009,
#40
Quote by GuitarMunky
Realizing and confirming to bluesguy that a good majority of the "discussions" quickly become a "im right and you're wrong" argument between someone has nothing to do with my ego, or what Darren has to offer. It's just me saying, "yeah I dude I hear ya.... you're right about that".

The ego is more evident when you take yourself so seriously that you can't admit it's true, and that you (and I don't mean you personally, but all of us to a certain extent) have been part of it.

I was just making light of that fact, because it is rather funny when you look at all the threads and see the same thing over and over again.



I'm pretty sure FP towarded that to Bluesguy.

But I see ur point lol, only I honestly didn't post those replies just for the sake of it.

To summ it up veryyy short;
By his logic, droning a chord long enough makes it the resolving chord.

I said, no this is an illusionary thing. Ur mind accepts anything that you hammer into if, whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter.

If you take on this logic, all music theory falls apart, cause then you can even "resolve" on a ViiDim in any key as long as you play it long enough.

He interchanged resolving with ending, and logic with aural.

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Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 5, 2009,
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