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#1
What is the difference between a master volume and a regular volume knob? And what does a master volume do and what does it have to due with overdriving the tubes? Whats the deal with the master volume on the fender hot rod deville? It has a drive channel. It is not very good. Does the master volume give you power tube overdrive on the clean channel?
#3
So, whats going on with the hot rod deville? Is its distortion channel, an solid state effect or does it cause the pre-amp tubes to overdrive? But, then it has the master volume.
Thanks-
#4
^ probably pre-amp tubes, but in cheaper tubes amps often there can be a little solid state clipping in there too.

just had a quick look at the schematic, it's a bit beyond what i can interpret, but it looks like there's pre-amp tube drive, but there are a load of FETs, diodes, op-amps and transistors etc. in there too. problem is when you're an idiot like me it's hard to decipher which part of the circuit they're actually working on...
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#5
Quote by Dave_Mc
^ probably pre-amp tubes, but in cheaper tubes amps often there can be a little solid state clipping in there too.

just had a quick look at the schematic, it's a bit beyond what i can interpret, but it looks like there's pre-amp tube drive, but there are a load of FETs, diodes, op-amps and transistors etc. in there too. problem is when you're an idiot like me it's hard to decipher which part of the circuit they're actually working on...

it is actually all preamp tube overdrive. it just grounds off most of the volume so its usable.
it still sounds like **** though.
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#6
^ is it? there's a ton of SS stuff in there, but as i said, i have no idea whether that's being used for the footswitching etc. i know some of it seems to be used for the reverb etc.

agreed that it doesn't sound very good.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#7
Okay, i went to the guitar store and figured it out. I decided i don't like pre-amp drive that much at all. I like power tube overdrive, but any amp even the smallest ones have to be pretty loud. So, thats a major disadvantage of that. I decided a good overdrive pedal like a keeley modded tubescreamer, produces the second best overdrive sound better than preamp overdrive.
#8
That's because the overdrive on the HRD sucks.

Preamp overdrive has it's uses, power amp overdrive has it's uses. You can't say that you don't like preamp overdrive, because just about all the overdrive you ever hear is preamp overdrive. I highly doubt you've ever heard true power tube overdrive by itself, it's fuzzy and a little soft sounding on it's own.
Last edited by al112987 at Feb 6, 2009,
#9
^ +1
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#10
Oh, well i thought the overdrive channel on the HRD Deville was preamp overdrive.
#11
er, you can have good and bad preamp overdrive? i mean, not all amps sound the same.

EDIT: yeah, the overdrive channel on the HRD will be preamp overdrive if you keep the volume low.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
Last edited by Dave_Mc at Feb 7, 2009,
#12
Quote by al112987
That's because the overdrive on the HRD sucks.

Preamp overdrive has it's uses, power amp overdrive has it's uses. You can't say that you don't like preamp overdrive, because just about all the overdrive you ever hear is preamp overdrive. I highly doubt you've ever heard true power tube overdrive by itself, it's fuzzy and a little soft sounding on it's own.


What???? Care to elaborate as to which amps you're describing, because when I do this with Marshalls (JTM45's, Plexi Super Leads, Majors, Super Bass) or my Mojave Peacemaker, your statement does not apply AT ALL.
Last edited by zachman5150 at Feb 7, 2009,
#13
explain to me how you are cranking just the power amp on non-master volume amplifiers.
#14
al knows what he's talking about fo sho, i'm sure he's accurate on his statement.

plus it does make since, if there's no master volume, then you can't just be pushing power tubes alone. and with a master volume and gain volume, leaving the preamp volume nearly at 0 and just pushing the master all the way up doesn't really provide that great overdrive most seek. more or less just a spanky twang with some grit.

but i have far less experience with tube amps compared to the pros and vets. so that's all i'll contribute at this moment.
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#15
Quote by al112987
explain to me how you are cranking just the power amp on non-master volume amplifiers.


+1

where the volume pot is in the circuit is also affecting the amount of signal going to the pre-amp tubes as well (generally it seems to be after the first triode of the first pre-amp tube)...



don't get me wrong, high gain amps with multiple cascading gain stages do have more pre-amp gain available, but even those vintage amps are getting a bit of preamp gain.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#16
Quote by al112987
explain to me how you are cranking just the power amp on non-master volume amplifiers.


Why do you think that is what I am doing? I never said any such thing

I asked you a question about your statement here:

Quote by zachman5150
What???? Care to elaborate as to which amps you're describing, because when I do this with Marshalls (JTM45's, Plexi Super Leads, Majors, Super Bass) or my Mojave Peacemaker, your statement does not apply AT ALL.


About your statement:

Quote by al112987
That's because the overdrive on the HRD sucks.

Preamp overdrive has it's uses, power amp overdrive has it's uses. You can't say that you don't like preamp overdrive, because just about all the overdrive you ever hear is preamp overdrive. I highly doubt you've ever heard true power tube overdrive by itself, it's fuzzy and a little soft sounding on it's own.


Now that I see your comment back to me, I realize that you were making a VERY obscure reference w/ your comment, NOT designed to be helpful--rather to portray a pseudo intellectual picture of yourself.

Quote by Dave_Mc
+1

where the volume pot is in the circuit is also affecting the amount of signal going to the pre-amp tubes as well (generally it seems to be after the first triode of the first pre-amp tube)...



don't get me wrong, high gain amps with multiple cascading gain stages do have more pre-amp gain available, but even those vintage amps are getting a bit of preamp gain.


True and if intellectual honesty were the goal-- the semantics nonsense wouldn't be necessary, as CLEARLY the powertube saturation of a non-MV amp is where the cool gain tone comes from, as the amp is CLEAN until Power tube clipping is reached.
Last edited by zachman5150 at Feb 7, 2009,
#17
What the hell are you talking about? Those amps sound good cranked because everything is saturating, the preamp, the power amp, the speakers breaking up play a part as well. No one is saying the power tubes saturating doesn't good, Al merely said its fuzzy and soft sounding.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#18
Quote by Kevin Saale
What the hell are you talking about? Those amps sound good cranked because everything is saturating, the preamp, the power amp, the speakers breaking up play a part as well. No one is saying the power tubes saturating doesn't good, Al merely said its fuzzy and soft sounding.


Yes, that is what had me curious since the volume/overall level comes from the Power section (NOT the preamp section), and driving that (Power amp) into saturation and "sounding soft" didn't make sense to me, because I didn't realize the "qualifier" that he had in there "by itself". (Misleading at best, since I was thinking of a non mv amp being driven into power tube clipping and his statement re: soft and fizzy, was in THAT context of an non-mv amp, not a poweramp "BY ITSELF" being driven into clipping is the hill he was choosing to make his claim on)
Last edited by zachman5150 at Feb 7, 2009,
#19
Quote by zachman5150

True and if intellectual honesty were the goal-- the semantics nonsense wouldn't be necessary, as CLEARLY the powertube saturation of a non-MV amp is where the cool gain tone comes from, as the amp is CLEAN until Power tube clipping is reached.


yeah, that's possibly true about the poweramp saturating before the preamp in non-MV ones. not certain about "cool gain tone" only coming from there, though, as that's likely to be personal preference, and a lot of people like cranking it to 10 (where there's going to be a bit of both)... depends what you're after, really, depends on the amp etc. too.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#20
Quote by Dave_Mc
yeah, that's possibly true about the poweramp saturating before the preamp in non-MV ones. not certain about "cool gain tone" only coming from there, though, as that's likely to be personal preference, and a lot of people like cranking it to 10 (where there's going to be a bit of both)... depends what you're after, really, depends on the amp etc. too.


Exactly why I asked which amps were being addressed, as my warehouse of various amps and 30+ years of using gear, building rigs etc... had me wondering what the hell HE was talking about. I "get it" now. Pseudo intellectual BS.

Re: preference I agree. Re: physics and Electronics theory... and how amps work and where gain happens in a given circuit
#21
i don't think it's psuedo-intellectual BS, andrew/al is a good guy, it's just we're so used round here getting guys spouting total crap (probably me included, lol), that any time someone comes along who knows stuff, it's a shock...
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#22
Quote by zachman5150
Yes, that is what had me curious since the volume/overall level comes from the Power section (NOT the preamp section), and driving that (Power amp) into saturation and "sounding soft" didn't make sense to me, because I didn't realize the "qualifier" that he had in there "by itself". (Misleading at best, since I was thinking of a non mv amp being driven into power tube clipping and his statement re: soft and fizzy, was in THAT context of an non-mv amp, not a poweramp "BY ITSELF" being driven into clipping is the hill he was choosing to make his claim on)

How is that misleading, I said that power amp overdrive on it's own has a slightly fuzzy and soft tone, I didn't know that "power tube distortion on it's own" entitled "power tube distortion and preamp distortion in cranked non-MV amps." Where in any way did I say anything about non-MV amps? If I meant the tone from cranking up a non-MV amp, then I probably would have said the tone of "cranking up a non-MV amp." Which again, is not "power tube distortion on it's own." And yes, I know what a non-MV amp sounds like cranked.

Call it pseudo-intellectual BS if you wish, however, I find that it was a fair response to a person saying that he thinks he doesn't like preamp distortion. Just as pure preamp distortion can be harsh and buzzy, pure power amp distortion can feel soft and fuzzy.
Last edited by al112987 at Feb 7, 2009,
#23
Okay, i think i understand now. On a amp with no master volume, when you crank the volume knob, it overdrives both the preamp and power tubes. Now, what does Master Volume do?
Thanks-
#24
Allows you to overdrive the preamp and keep the volume low. If you put the preamp gain (or volume whatever it's labeled as) at ten and the master at one you'll have all preamp distortion and no power amp distortion.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#25
Quote by al112987
How is that misleading, I said that power amp overdrive on it's own has a slightly fuzzy and soft tone, I didn't know that "power tube distortion on it's own" entitled "power tube distortion and preamp distortion in cranked non-MV amps." Where in any way did I say anything about non-MV amps? If I meant the tone from cranking up a non-MV amp, then I probably would have said the tone of "cranking up a non-MV amp." Which again, is not "power tube distortion on it's own." And yes, I know what a non-MV amp sounds like cranked.

Call it pseudo-intellectual BS if you wish, however, I find that it was a fair response to a person saying that he thinks he doesn't like preamp distortion. Just as pure preamp distortion can be harsh and buzzy, pure power amp distortion can feel soft and fuzzy.



Since one can NOT really hear preamp distortion without a "Power amp component" driving speakers, it seems clear to me what the context was, and your comment seemed to blur more than clarify, imo--which is why I don't think it was a "Fair response" to someone who clearly didn't have a background on how stuff works.


That's all
Last edited by zachman5150 at Feb 7, 2009,
#26
Okay, i see. What about this setup, i ve seen settings on an amp like this: Preamp Volume, Power Amp volume, Post Volume. I saw this on the Peavey Delta Blues. What is "Post Volume"?
Thanks-
#28
Quote by get ta led out!
My HRD sounds fine cranked...how does the overdrive suck?



I agree the drive on my BDRI is smokin' when cranked, I think people try to equate the Master Volume setup in these amps to an attenuator being built into the amp that'll allow a loud amp to be played at bedroom volumes, and it don't work that way.
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#29
^ er, it does in other amps? granted they don't sound as good as when cranked, but not many amps' overdrive channels sound as horrendous as the HRDs when not cranked...

Quote by asdaven
Okay, i see. What about this setup, i ve seen settings on an amp like this: Preamp Volume, Power Amp volume, Post Volume. I saw this on the Peavey Delta Blues. What is "Post Volume"?
Thanks-


post volume is the same as a master volume, preamp volume is a preamp gain control (to let you get preamp overdrive/distortion).

Quote by get ta led out!
My HRD sounds fine cranked...how does the overdrive suck?


we mean the overdrive channels at lower volumes.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
Last edited by Dave_Mc at Feb 8, 2009,
#30
Quote by Dave_Mc
^ er, it does in other amps? granted they don't sound as good as when cranked, but not many amps' overdrive channels sound as horrendous as the HRDs when not cranked...


I don't know of any similar tube amp of the same output and in the same price range that doesn't get muddy and/or dry at lower volumes on the drive channel ("as horrendous as" is a matter of personal opinion). Sure they could start adding more preamp gain stages to bring it up to par somewhat but then the price starts climbing and the bottom line is it's gonna sound a little better but still not the same as it would at "working volume" anyway (as you do point out).

The bottom line is that the purpose of the drive channel is to complement the clean channel at volume, not to simulate an overdriven amp at low volume. With that in mind, it works great.
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MIM Telecaster - Lefty
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TS-9 with a few mods
Dunlop GCB-95 Wah
#31
Quote by SwamperGene
I don't know of any similar tube amp of the same output and in the same price range that doesn't get muddy and/or dry at lower volumes on the drive channel ("as horrendous as" is a matter of personal opinion). Sure they could start adding more preamp gain stages to bring it up to par somewhat but then the price starts climbing and the bottom line is it's gonna sound a little better but still not the same as it would at "working volume" anyway (as you do point out).

The bottom line is that the purpose of the drive channel is to complement the clean channel at volume, not to simulate an overdriven amp at low volume. With that in mind, it works great.


My favorite amps for high gain low volume tones are the Mesa/Boogie MK Series amps.
#32
Quote by SwamperGene
I don't know of any similar tube amp of the same output and in the same price range that doesn't get muddy and/or dry at lower volumes on the drive channel ("as horrendous as" is a matter of personal opinion). Sure they could start adding more preamp gain stages to bring it up to par somewhat but then the price starts climbing and the bottom line is it's gonna sound a little better but still not the same as it would at "working volume" anyway (as you do point out).

The bottom line is that the purpose of the drive channel is to complement the clean channel at volume, not to simulate an overdriven amp at low volume. With that in mind, it works great.


yeah, i guess... just here in the UK, there are amps which aren't much more expensive (heck, even some which are cheaper) which have much nicer OD channels for lower volume playing... does depend on what you're after, though.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#33
I dunno man, I owned an HRD for a while and played it at every volume level (and even ran attenuator later) and I could never get it to sound good. The clean channel was kind of rough and farty at higher volume, probably due to the cab and speaker. The linear volume pots made both volume controls unusable pieces of junk.

The only way I got a good sound was setting the clean channel on the edge of break up and running an OD pedal in front. Otherwise it just didn't sound good for dirty tones. Running a DS1 into it honestly sounded better.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
Last edited by Kevin Saale at Feb 8, 2009,
#34
Quote by Dave_Mc
i don't think it's psuedo-intellectual BS, andrew/al is a good guy, it's just we're so used round here getting guys spouting total crap (probably me included, lol), that any time someone comes along who knows stuff, it's a shock...


Right on, I don't want to make waves. I was just trying to be helpful in clarifying.

I have noticed that there are a lot of comments by some here, who appear to be "less than seasoned with experience and education", of course some more/less than others-- and the posturing by those who "act" like they "Know" just have me shaking my head.

I will likely not be posting here much anymore, as I get no benefit from arguing w/ people about gear-- and the arguments, and posturing seem to be what a lot of guys here are about--MOST of them clueless about how stuff works, but for their uneducated misunderstanding of some blog they read on the web or in a magazine re: gear they've likely only seen in magazines--and NEVER had any real world experience utilizing, let alone professional use.

It's cool
Last edited by zachman5150 at Feb 8, 2009,
#35
Quote by Kevin Saale
The linear volume pots made both volume controls unusable pieces of junk.


The only linear pot is the Master, the Drive and more importantly the Clean Volume are both audio taper pots.

It's ok to not like something, but if you're gonna go trashin' on something you don't like, at least make sure you got the facts straight, it helps to validate your opinion.
My Stuff:
Austin Strat Copy - Lefty
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#36
Hmm, could've swore the clean volume control was a linear pot, either way, it was a bit too touchy for my tastes. Excuse me for not being up to snuff on it, I haven't owned one for quite some time.

As far as amps that don't sound bad at low volumes, the classic 30, while not amazing does sound better at lower volumes and it's about the same wattage as the HRD. The Traynor YCV comes to mind as well, its a much better amp than both the classic 30 and the HRD.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#37
Quote by zachman5150
Right on, I don't want to make waves. I was just trying to be helpful in clarifying.

I have noticed that there are a lot of comments by some here, who appear to be "less than seasoned with experience and education", of course some more/less than others-- and the posturing by those who "act" like they "Know" just have me shaking my head.

I will likely not be posting here much anymore, as I get no benefit from arguing w/ people about gear-- and the arguments, and posturing seem to be what a lot of guys here are about--MOST of them clueless about how stuff works, but for their uneducated misunderstanding of some blog they read on the web or in a magazine re: gear they've likely only seen in magazines--and NEVER had any real world experience utilizing, let alone professional use.

It's cool


yeah, i know what you're saying- though plenty of forums have reasons not to like them too, it's not just here. the anonymity of the internet means that people will act in ways they wouldn't in the real world... and then trolling is just a whole other problem too...

I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#38
Quote by Dave_Mc
yeah, i know what you're saying- though plenty of forums have reasons not to like them too, it's not just here. the anonymity of the internet means that people will act in ways they wouldn't in the real world... and then trolling is just a whole other problem too...



Agreed

Keep Rockin

Last edited by zachman5150 at Feb 8, 2009,
#39
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#40
Wow I just read all of these posts...

05' G&L S-500
95' Godin LGX

96' Yamaha APX 6-A

Peavey Classic 30
Maxon OD808
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