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#1
Increasing the number of speakers doesnt do ANYTHING to actual loudness except for them working in a more linear region of their power handling capacity, which is not a problem anyway with 5 watt amps. The "extra 3db louder with more speakers" is a bunch of bollocks made up by pseudo-electricians who need to go back to high school to learn basic maths.

It might change the perceived loudness due to sound wave interference a bit, but nothing else.

The total working power of a huge stack of speakers connected to a valve junior will still be 5 watts just like the working power of 1 speaker will be 5 watts in a small valve junior combo amp.

For a given power input to a number x of speakers with the same efficiency, the cumulative loudness in decibels will increase by (logx)*10 decibels.

If you use a single speaker with 100 db/wm sensitivity with a 5 watt amp(though their actual sensitivity is more in the 110-115 db/wm area in the most important 2khz range), then it will produce a sound pressure of 100+ (log5)*10=107 decibels at a one meter distance.
with 100 speakers then every speaker will output(since every speaker gets 0,05 watt of power) 100 +(log0.05)*10= 87 decibels of sound pressure and since there are 100 speakers you add (log100)*10=20 decibels to that and STILL GET 87+20=107 DECIBELS of loudness.

Want to get your 121 db's of noise? Use a 5*10^[(121-107)/10]=125 watt amp. With a full stack or 110 cabinet? Pick either.
#4
thanks didnt realise i asked for this info?
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#6
Quote by Skierinanutshel



again, 100 speakers with one watt sounds louder than one speaker at one watt.



touché!


TS, you didn't count in that many speakers stack the soundwaves tighter, did you?
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#7
Quote by linus.d
touché!


TS, you didn't count in that many speakers stack the soundwaves tighter, did you?

I see where the misunderstanding is now:

In order to have 100 speakers working at 1 watt each, they drain a total of 100 watts of power, which contradicts with the assumption that they are supplied with only 1 watt,

whereas 1 speaker working at 1 watts only drains 1 watt of power in total.
#8
Quote by shoolocomous
well, that's me told.


God, i feel stupid.

Like a slice of bread....
#9
Well, yeah. But if you repeat the same sound, even over 100 speakers each outputting 1 Watt, wouldn't the waves overlap and the sound strengthen?
#10
Quote by jedkoc
Well, yeah. But if you repeat the same sound, even over 100 speakers each outputting 1 Watt, wouldn't the waves overlap and the sound strengthen?

yes the sound strengthens as long as the phase of the waves is such as to not cancel each other out, but in order to do so, they need more power, which they wont get if an amp is outputting a constant amount.
#11
more speakers sound louder. im not entirely sure where you are coming from. sure you can prove that the power output is the same, but the power output isnt directly proportional to volume or anything. more speakers push more air, which creates an increase in percieved volume. i think you need to brush up a bit more on your wave theory.
#12
Wow, someone is finally agreeing with what I've been saying for the past month or 2.

Quote by jof1029
more speakers sound louder. im not entirely sure where you are coming from. sure you can prove that the power output is the same, but the power output isnt directly proportional to volume or anything. more speakers push more air, which creates an increase in percieved volume. i think you need to brush up a bit more on your wave theory.

But why would more speakers push more air? If the array of speakers is supplied with the same amount of power as a single speaker, the cone displacement of the array's speakers will decrease.: approx same amount of total air displacement.
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Orange Tiny Terror >
LzR Engineering 212 cab

My other amp can run Crysis
Last edited by FischmungaXTR at Feb 9, 2009,
#13
Quote by jof1029
more speakers push more air

i understand that you mean the amplitude of air pressure change will increase by that statement.

Thats wrong. If 1 speakers, using 1 watt makes a 100 Pa amplitude sound wave at some distance, and 4 speakers, each using 0,25 watt each make a 25 Pa (which they will if they are the same type as the first speaker and are working linearly)amplitude sound wave at the same distance, then the combined sound wave will still be 100 Pa while using the same amount of power, given the sound waves all get ADDED to one another and not substituted which will happen at higher frequencies while using the same amount of power and will in fact make the combination of several speakers a somewhat more quiet than a single speaker would be
Last edited by 1337void at Feb 9, 2009,
#14
What he says makes sense.

I run a fullstack. It isn't any louder than running a halfstack. It does sound fuller.... but not any louder.

I also find that running twice as many speakers seems to put less stress on individual speakers.... so speakers that would sound overdriven in a half stack sound clearer in a full stack. In order for this to be true, each speaker would individually have to recieve less power... which makes sense as the amp's power is now being distributed to 8 speakers instead of 4.

So... in short, yes I'm running twice as many cabs, but each cab is being driven by half the power.

100w + 4x12 = 100w per 4x12 or 25w per speaker.

100w + 2x 4x12 = 50w per 4x12 or 12.5w per speaker.

FWIW.
Last edited by some_dude_2 at Feb 9, 2009,
#15
Quote by some_dude_2
What he says makes sense.

I run a fullstack. It isn't any louder than running a halfstack. It does sound fuller.... but not any louder.

I also find that running twice as many speakers seems to put less stress on individual speakers.... so speakers that would sound overdriven in a half stack sound clearer in a full stack. In order for this to be true, each speaker would individually have to recieve less power... which makes sense as the amp's power is now being distributed to 8 speakers instead of 4.

FWIW.

i'm still unsure as to what FWIW means.
I like analogue Solid State amps that make no effort to be "tube-like", and I'm proud of it...

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#17
Quote by 1337void
i understand that you mean the amplitude of air pressure change will increase by that statement.

Thats wrong. If 1 speakers, using 1 watt makes a 100 Pa amplitude sound wave at some distance, and 4 speakers, each using 0,25 watt each make a 25 Pa (which they will if they are the same type as the first speaker and are working linearly)amplitude sound wave at the same distance, then the combined sound wave will still be 100 Pa while using the same amount of power, given the sound waves all get ADDED to one another and not substituted which will happen at higher frequencies while using the same amount of power and will in fact make the combination of several speakers a somewhat more quiet than a single speaker would be

i didnt say anything about amplitude at all...

what i meant is that a single speaker pushes air in a single conical pattern. two speakers push air in a cone each. the intensity of each might be diminished, but the spread is wider. that spread is what im talking about. in the center area where there is overlap, its going to sound about the same, but probably have a bit of a perceived volume increase. the actual volume output wont increase in dB terms, but the human ear thinks its louder due to the overlap. and then of course the edge areas will be louder because there wasnt sound there before (looking at the cone thing again).

i agree completly that there is no 3dB increase in sound like people say, but i do think that the human ear perceives more speakers as slightly louder. doesnt make a huge difference, but it helps the fullness of the sound (which is partly the cause of the louder sound).
#18
I don't think anybody's definitively right here because TS has ignored the idea of a greater volume of sound and corresponding technicalities due to the initial bias he has to set out his viewpoint as true.

I'm not saying you're wrong, i'm saying you're not necessarily as right as you think as there are almost definitely a huge amount of other factors.

Also, I have the feeling the figure of 3db was either
a) a fact touted on here by someone working as a sound engineer
or
b) a generalisation to account for perceived difference in loudness.
The Laney Thread are big and clever. No exceptions.
#19
Quote by MrCarrot
I don't think anybody's definitively right here because TS has ignored the idea of a greater volume of sound and corresponding technicalities due to the initial bias he has to set out his viewpoint as true.

I'm not saying you're wrong, i'm saying you're not necessarily as right as you think as there are almost definitely a huge amount of other factors.

Also, I have the feeling the figure of 3db was either
a) a fact touted on here by someone working as a sound engineer
or
b) a generalisation to account for perceived difference in loudness.



sadly, this all started as a cheap joke i made........

who knew it would turn into this?
#20
Quote by jof1029
i didnt say anything about amplitude at all...

what i meant is that a single speaker pushes air in a single conical pattern. two speakers push air in a cone each. the intensity of each might be diminished, but the spread is wider. that spread is what im talking about.


If you want the sound to be more evenly dispersed then its better to have several cabinets pointing in different directions alltogether, the effect of a larger amount of speakers pointing in the same direction wont be as big
#21
Quote by jof1029
i didnt say anything about amplitude at all...

what i meant is that a single speaker pushes air in a single conical pattern. two speakers push air in a cone each. the intensity of each might be diminished, but the spread is wider. that spread is what im talking about. in the center area where there is overlap, its going to sound about the same, but probably have a bit of a perceived volume increase. the actual volume output wont increase in dB terms, but the human ear thinks its louder due to the overlap. and then of course the edge areas will be louder because there wasnt sound there before (looking at the cone thing again).

i agree completly that there is no 3dB increase in sound like people say, but i do think that the human ear perceives more speakers as slightly louder. doesnt make a huge difference, but it helps the fullness of the sound (which is partly the cause of the louder sound).

I get what you are talking about now - phase interference. It does mean that there might be certain (very small) areas of space where the sound waves collide constructively, resulting in +3dB, but there will also be an equal number of destructive collision spots, which will be about 3dB quieter, therefore average loudness = the same.

Of course, this phenomenon is extremely unlikely with a single 412 cab, because the speakers are too close together. Still means there is no dB gain simply by increasing the number of speakers.

Quote by MrCarrot
Also, I have the feeling the figure of 3db was either
a) a fact touted on here by someone working as a sound engineer
or
b) a generalisation to account for perceived difference in loudness.

My theory is that the 3dB increase is in fact correct for hi-fi and car audio systems, where the extra speakers would be connected in parallel. This would decrease the overall impedance on the amp, resulting in greater current flow, more watts and more dB's. This would apply to guitar amps too if it were not for the fact that connecting speakers of too low an impedance would damage the amp.
A metal band?
Gear:
A Guitar with an LFR > Korg Pitchblack > Behringer EQ > Hardwire CM-2 Overdrive Boss SD-1 > Hardwire CR-7 Chorus>
Orange Tiny Terror >
LzR Engineering 212 cab

My other amp can run Crysis
Last edited by FischmungaXTR at Feb 9, 2009,
#22
Quote by FischmungaXTR
I get what you are talking about now - phase interference. It does mean that there might be certain (very small) areas of space where the sound waves collide constructively, resulting in +3dB, but there will also be an equal number of destructive collision spots, which will be about 3dB quieter, therefore average loudness = the same.

where the waves collide constructively the sound pressure will be the same as it would be everywhere with the 1 speaker cab whereas in the places where sound waves destroy each other the sound level is smaller than it would be in the case of a single speaker cab. So in fact on the whole the average loudness is smaller with more speakers(note this effect is nonexistand with longer wavelengths = bass frequencies)

Quote by FischmungaXTR


My theory is that the 3dB increase is in fact correct for hi-fi and car audio systems, where the extra speakers would be connected in parallel. This would decrease the overall impedance on the amp, resulting in greater current flow, more watts and more dB's. This would apply to guitar amps too if it were not for the fact that connecting speakers of too low an impedance would damage the amp.

This depends on the output impendance of the amp. When the impendance of the load is equal to output impendance, it gets the most power. When the load impendance is bigger or smaller than that, it gets less power..
#23
of course there is a volume difference, with one source of sound the waves will be at a standard
with another there will be constuctive interference making the volume louder

i may be wrong, actually i probably am, but its my 2 cents
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#24


.. Db is a measurement of SPL (Sound Pressure Level)
No one speaker with 100 watts will not be efficient at pressurizing the air in front of it as 2 speakers with 100 watts (50 watts each) or 4 speakers (25 watts each). Just like putting horsepower in cars, all that power means nothing without traction.
You have to take into account more then just Power + speaker = sound. Newton's Law comes into effect, to the tune of: the harder the speaker pushes, the harder the air in front of it resists.
#25
you could get a 3 db boost (or is it 10db?) if you double (or is it ^2?) the power of your AMP That half useless jibberish aside, I understand what you guys are saying about a full stacks waveforms overlapping and playing tricks on your mind and making it sound fuller, idk about louder though... think it's just a trick because I mean both speakers can't be receiving full power so I mean the power source (amp head) can only give 100 % right? Except when you overdrive (tube amp of course ) it of course but still its only like 190% (or w/e) divided between two speakers.
#26
no one here knows anything about anything. you're all wrong there is a 3db difference, lrn2speakers

seriously though

you could get a 3 db boost (or is it 10db?) if you double (or is it ^2?) the power of your AMP


i think you're confused. you have to multiply the wattage by 10 to get double the sound.

like, 5 watts is only half as loud as 50 watts.
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Last edited by Exo M7 at Feb 9, 2009,
#27
Quote by _Sanitarium_


.. Db is a measurement of SPL (Sound Pressure Level)
No one speaker with 100 watts will not be efficient at pressurizing the air in front of it as 2 speakers with 100 watts (50 watts each) or 4 speakers (25 watts each).

Although this is likely to be somewhat true, I think this is rather irrelevant to the misunderstandings going on here.

We're talking about people thinking that adding an extra 50W speaker to their 5W valve amp will make it 3dB louder. At these levels the efficiency of the speakers is fairly linear.
A metal band?
Gear:
A Guitar with an LFR > Korg Pitchblack > Behringer EQ > Hardwire CM-2 Overdrive Boss SD-1 > Hardwire CR-7 Chorus>
Orange Tiny Terror >
LzR Engineering 212 cab

My other amp can run Crysis
#29
Quote by _Sanitarium_


.. Db is a measurement of SPL (Sound Pressure Level)
No one speaker with 100 watts will not be efficient at pressurizing the air in front of it as 2 speakers with 100 watts (50 watts each) or 4 speakers (25 watts each).

If all speakers are working linearly(which means that they arent distorting the sound) then adding speakers doesnt increase efficiency. Just like using a 1200 watt amp at 10% volume wont be louder than a 120 watt amp at 100% volume if they are both in their linear range.
Last edited by 1337void at Feb 9, 2009,
#30
Why doesnt someone play on a head and cab (4x12) and while playing, just remove 2 speakers from the cab (just disconnect), if it doesnt cause any damage of course.. Then report back the volume difference.
...Someone other than OP...
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Last edited by gold_ninja101 at Feb 9, 2009,
#31
Is this thread just a continuation of an argument in another thread?

Seems louder to me when I plug my combo into an extension cab. Seems to me that is but I'm sure it's not really. I just perceive it as such, perceptions are peoples realities. So it's real to me. Sounds more full and deep too, so range is improved as well. To me, that is.

Go ahead and keep arguing, it's Monday. Cheers!
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#33
find me a 125w handling 10" and your on

perceived loudness is good enough for me
Get off this damn forum and play your damn guitar.
#34
Something interesting I came accross...
http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/551/world-record-1805-db-from-a-single-subwoofer
180.5 from a single sub.
For reference, that's about 10 db louder then putting your head inside the space shuttle's thruster cones on launch.
#35
Quote by gold_ninja101
Why doesnt someone play on a head and cab (4x12) and while playing, just remove 2 speakers from the cab (just disconnect), if it doesnt cause any damage of course.. Then report back the volume difference.
...Someone other than OP...



well...i've done that many times, but i would hate to post my results in fear of making 1337void feel bad.


and, 1337void you will be forever be remembered as speaker dude. not offensive, but as a way to remember.




no hard feelings, man.
#36
Quote by gregs1020
Is this thread just a continuation of an argument in another thread?

Seems louder to me when I plug my combo into an extension cab. Seems to me that is but I'm sure it's not really. I just perceive it as such, perceptions are peoples realities. So it's real to me. Sounds more full and deep too, so range is improved as well. To me, that is.

Go ahead and keep arguing, it's Monday. Cheers!


yes it could be louder since they use different speakers: different speakers mean different efficiencies. COuld also be caused by you being located in a different position in relation to the extension cabinet compared to the amp itself.

Quote by stevo_epi_SG_wo
find me a 125w handling 10" and your on

perceived loudness is good enough for me

there are plenty of such speakers, the thing is they arent meant for guitar amps and thus have the wrong voicing for such purposes.


Quote by _Sanitarium_
Something interesting I came accross...
http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/551/world-record-1805-db-from-a-single-subwoofer
180.5 from a single sub.
For reference, that's about 10 db louder then putting your head inside the space shuttle's thruster cones on launch.


in fact its pretty much the maximum possible sound pressure too, since its almost equal to that of the atmosphere itself, pretty cool
#37
Quote by gold_ninja101
Why doesnt someone play on a head and cab (4x12) and while playing, just remove 2 speakers from the cab (just disconnect), if it doesnt cause any damage of course.. Then report back the volume difference.
...Someone other than OP...

I modified my cab to do that, I've got a switch in the back to cut a speaker out.
When the switch is flipped, the impedance is doubled, so the amp is 89% as efficient as before, and there's one speaker instead of two. There's no noticeable volume change.

The long and short of it is, there are too many variables that none of you are taking into account so you're all yelling about ridiculous theoretical circumstances.

Volume is a silly thing to argue about. It's so easy to fix in nearly any situation that I can't believe we're actually arguing about these things. Let's focus on solving actual volume problems instead of dreaming up fake ones.
#38
Quote by 1337void
yes it could be louder since they use different speakers: different speakers mean different efficiencies. COuld also be caused by you being located in a different position in relation to the extension cabinet compared to the amp itself.

My combo sits on top of my cab. They do use different speakers, the combo has 1-12 and the cab is a 2x10. Both are closed back if that matters. I'm not arguing with you, just pointing out my personal experience with the issue. It does seem louder to me, but I admit that doesn't mean that it is louder. Just perceived so, by me.
I wondered why the frisbee was getting bigger, then it hit me.
#39
Quote by _Sanitarium_
Something interesting I came accross...
http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/551/world-record-1805-db-from-a-single-subwoofer
180.5 from a single sub.
For reference, that's about 10 db louder then putting your head inside the space shuttle's thruster cones on launch.


+1

Alot of people forget that the room or in this case car its in makes a huge difference as well. When I used to compete in db drags you could have two identical setups using the same freq to burp the car and one would always be louder depending on the car it was in and what was used in the car to help with sound pressure issues.

Theres a ton of variables and simply saying this plus this equals this is not always correct unless you calculate every variable known including retarded stuff you would never even think about.
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