#1
no this isnt a thread asking about modes.
i know what modes are, i know how to use them (i think).

a couple days ago i made a pretty cool souding chord progression that ive been doing improv with.
the progression goes: Am6 - GM7 - Am6 - Em7 - D9
(the first few chords last one measure, but the Em7 and the D9 are both 2 beats.)
the progression is in A dorian.

my question is: do i really need to learn all the shapes of the modes? or just play the relative major scale over a modal progression?
cause over that progression ive just been playing the G major scale, focusing on chord tones and stuff, and throwing in a few chromatics.
it sounds fine, but i was just curious if learning the actual shapes of each mode will help me out more.

i dont think it would help me that much, but i wanna know some other opinions.

my 6 best friends:
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Last edited by musicTHEORYnerd at Feb 12, 2009,
#3
You really want to learn the sounds of the modes. Once you have that in your ear you will gravitate to those sounds when you are improvising.
Originally posted by arrrgg
When my grandpa comes over to visit, after his shower, he walks around naked to dry off
#4
It sounds like you know alot more about music theory than me, but personally, I wouldn't learn the modes as seperate scales - I prefer to think of them in terms of charecter notes; so I'll just play the major scale or the minor scale and swap out the appropriate note. for example ( i can't remember the name of the scale, but It's charecter notes a minor 7th) I'd just play the major scale, with a flattened 7th,

or, if I was playing in G, just play the major scale in C.
#5
Quote by Led man32
You really want to learn the sounds of the modes. Once you have that in your ear you will gravitate to those sounds when you are improvising.

yeah i see what you mean.
but should i really spend the time to learn ALL the modes shapes?
it just seems like it would be a total waste of time if im going to be focusing on chord tones.

It sounds like you know alot more about music theory than me, but personally, I wouldn't learn the modes as seperate scales - I prefer to think of them in terms of charecter notes; so I'll just play the major scale or the minor scale and swap out the appropriate note. for example ( i can't remember the name of the scale, but It's charecter notes a minor 7th) I'd just play the major scale, with a flattened 7th,

or, if I was playing in G, just play the major scale in the C position


yeah thats what i do.
over the Am6 chord (i think its technically a Am13 chord cause it has A, C, E, G, and F#)
over that chord ill just do a lick off the A minor pentatonic but add in the F#.

basically instead of learning ALL the mode shapes im just playing the G major scale and focusing on chord tones alot.
my 6 best friends:
Ibanez Artcore AF75
Schecter C-1 Hellraiser
LTD H-207 7 string
Ibanez Acoustic
Last edited by musicTHEORYnerd at Feb 12, 2009,
#6
Quote by jimRH7
It sounds like you know alot more about music theory than me, but personally, I wouldn't learn the modes as seperate scales - I prefer to think of them in terms of charecter notes; so I'll just play the major scale or the minor scale and swap out the appropriate note. for example ( i can't remember the name of the scale, but It's charecter notes a minor 7th) I'd just play the major scale, with a flattened 7th,

or, if I was playing in G, just play the major scale in C.

That's what I recommend.
#7
If you are in A dorian, you are not playing the G major scale. They are entirely different. It seems to me that you both don't know what modes and scales are, and don't know the major scale all over the fretboard. In short, you shouldn't be worrying about modes. Visit the theory sticky and Crusades articles and worry about learning the major scale in every key, all over the fretboard, as well as the theory behind it.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#8
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
yeah i see what you mean.
but should i really spend the time to learn ALL the modes shapes?
it just seems like it would be a total waste of time if im going to be focusing on chord tones.


yeah thats what i do.
over the Am6 chord (i think its technically a Am13 chord cause it has A, C, E, G, and F#)
over that chord ill just do a lick off the A minor pentatonic but add in the F#.

basically instead of learning ALL the mode shapes im just playing the G major scale and focusing on chord tones alot.

you sound confused, you should learn the notes rather than more shapes
#9
Quote by Archeo Avis
If you are in A dorian, you are not playing the G major scale. They are entirely different. It seems to me that you both don't know what modes and scales are, and don't know the major scale all over the fretboard. In short, you shouldn't be worrying about modes. Visit the theory sticky and Crusades articles and worry about learning the major scale in every key, all over the fretboard, as well as the theory behind it.

The shapes are the same. You're just centering around a different note.
#10
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
no this isnt a thread asking about modes.
i know what modes are, i know how to use them (i think).

a couple days ago i made a pretty cool souding chord progression that ive been doing improv with.
the progression goes: Am6 - GM7 - Am6 - Em7 - D9
(the first few chords last one measure, but the Em7 and the D9 are both 2 beats.)
the progression is in A dorian.

my question is: do i really need to learn all the shapes of the modes? or just play the relative major scale over a modal progression?
cause over that progression ive just been playing the G major scale, focusing on chord tones and stuff, and throwing in a few chromatics.
it sounds fine, but i was just curious if learning the actual shapes of each mode will help me out more.

i dont think it would help me that much, but i wanna know some other opinions.



it's helpful to be able to see/hear the modes as individual scales. Do you have to learn all the shapes? well, no you don't have to learn anything, but in the long run that knowledge will be beneficial to you.

btw your progression is all in G Major, so in that instance modes are irrelevant anyway. What I would do in that case is focus on all the chord/arpeggio shapes and their relationship to the parent scale (G Major).
#11
Quote by Archeo Avis
If you are in A dorian, you are not playing the G major scale. They are entirely different. It seems to me that you both don't know what modes and scales are, and don't know the major scale all over the fretboard. In short, you shouldn't be worrying about modes. Visit the theory sticky and Crusades articles and worry about learning the major scale in every key, all over the fretboard, as well as the theory behind it.

yes i know A dorian isnt G major.
and yes i do know the G major scale all over the neck.

but if im doing improv over a chord progression in A dorian, and im playing the notes (in no specific order) G, A, B, C, D, E, and F#, i am soloing in A dorian.

what im trying to say is, i know the scale all over the neck, but i dont focus on a G note alot, if im playing the Am13 chord, i solo with the notes in the Am13 chord. If im doing improv over the D9 chord, i use the notes D, F#, A, C, and E.

im not doing licks in G major, and im not running up and down the G major scale.

you sound confused, you should learn the notes rather than more shapes

i know, i think you misunderstood me.
i know the notes all over the fret board.

that was my question, should i just solo using chord tones or should i learn more shapes.
my 6 best friends:
Ibanez Artcore AF75
Schecter C-1 Hellraiser
LTD H-207 7 string
Ibanez Acoustic
Last edited by musicTHEORYnerd at Feb 12, 2009,
#12
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd


that was my question, should i just solo using chord tones or should i learn more shapes.


Well melodies generally consist of more than just chord tones. You need to have a handle on the chord shapes as well as the scales. I think your issue here is that you somehow think that modes are involved in that progression, when in reality it's all in 1 key.... G Major.

If you know G Major and you know where the various chord tones are you're pretty much all set.

now if you were playing over something that implied a mode, it would be the same concept. For instance if it was A dorian, think of A dorian + relevant chord tones. You could of-course just think of the parent scale + chord tones as well. ( which is what I thought you were asking in the 1st place).

So no, you don't have to learn all the mode shapes if you have enough knowledge to know the parent scale, but then again it wouldn't really hurt you to know them would it?
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 12, 2009,
#13
I honestly believe that learning the shapes is actually a bad idea. If you know the notes of the scale (or mode), and can think about the underlying chords as you solo, your note choices will be much potent than if you were running around a pattern.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.


Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
#14
Quote by The_Sophist
I honestly believe that learning the shapes is actually a bad idea. If you know the notes of the scale (or mode), and can think about the underlying chords as you solo, your note choices will be much potent than if you were running around a pattern.


learning the shapes is not a bad idea. Running around a pattern without using your ear is.... but who is talking about doing that? You can think about the underlying chords and "run around" those as well and have the same outcome. The key is to listen. you have to use some common sense and actually listen/pay attention to what your playing. this is true regardless of whether you are "running around" a shape, or "running around" your knowledge of chord tones.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 12, 2009,
#15
thanks to guitarmunky and the sophist.
you guys answered my questions =]

personally i think it would be a bad idea to learn the shapes of the modes cause then it will just be more shapes and more shapes, instead of making a solo melodic and interesting.
my 6 best friends:
Ibanez Artcore AF75
Schecter C-1 Hellraiser
LTD H-207 7 string
Ibanez Acoustic
#17
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
thanks to guitarmunky and the sophist.
you guys answered my questions =]

personally i agree with you guys, and i think it would be a bad idea to learn the shapes of the modes cause then it will just be more shapes and more shapes, instead of making a solo melodic and interesting.



well you don't agree with me, because I said its a good idea. I just said you don't have to. I mean you don't have to learn anything if you don't want to.

I think you just waited for someone to tell you what you wanted to hear, (what you've already decided before even asking), and then went with that. Pretty common here. I often forget that before I waste my time and post.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 12, 2009,
#18
Quote by The_Sophist
I honestly believe that learning the shapes is actually a bad idea. If you know the notes of the scale (or mode), and can think about the underlying chords as you solo, your note choices will be much potent than if you were running around a pattern.

Actually, I believe that experience with a scale is what matters. You don't have to know the notes, I know the notes, but that is not what defines my playing. What defines my note choice is what I feel, and that comes from playing each scale more than a couple months, and then the note choices are automatic.

Quote by GuitarMunky
learning the shapes is not a bad idea. Running around a pattern without using your ear is.... but who is talking about doing that? You can think about the underlying chords and "run around" those as well and have the same outcome. The key is to listen. you have to use some common sense and actually listen/pay attention to what your playing. this is true regardless of whether you are "running around" a shape, or "running around" your knowledge of chord tones.

+1
Last edited by yoyodunno at Feb 12, 2009,
#19
Quote by GuitarMunky
well you don't agree with me, because I said its a good idea. I just said you don't have to. I mean you don't have to learn anything if you don't want to.

sorry, my fault.
in one music book i read it said "horizontal improv" is soloing with scales, "vertical improv" is soloing with chord tones, and "through form" is combining both of them to make a melody.
i guess you could clasify what i do as "through form" improv.


EDIT: but thanks to everyone for helping =]
my 6 best friends:
Ibanez Artcore AF75
Schecter C-1 Hellraiser
LTD H-207 7 string
Ibanez Acoustic
#20
Quote by yoyodunno
Actually, I believe that experience with a scale is what matters. You don't have to know the notes, I know the notes, but that is not what defines my playing. What defines my note choice is what I feel, and that comes from playing each scale more than a couple months, and then the note choices are automatic.


That is only usefull if you are playing over a chord progression you have experience with. Everyone has a vague idea of what they like doing over a I IV V, but when you are playing over a complex chord progression you've never encountered before, it is infinitly useful to know the notes.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.


Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
#21
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
sorry, my fault.
in one music book i read it said "horizontal improv" is soloing with scales, "vertical improv" is soloing with chord tones, and "through form" is combining both of them to make a melody.
i guess you could clasify what i do as "through form" improv.


EDIT: but thanks to everyone for helping =]



don't get too caught up in the fancy terms. They look great on paper, and might intrigue you, but there is no need to practice 3 separate "types of improvising". If you're improvising, you'll likely want to play melodically (like most players), which means the use of chord tones and the notes in between.

- Know chord tones
- know scales (including modes)
- understand what a melody is (consists of).
- listen to music and consider those issues.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 12, 2009,
#22
Quote by GuitarMunky
don't get too caught up in the fancy terms. They look great on paper, and might intrigue you, but really it's all the same. If you're improvising, you'll likely play melodically (like most players), which means the use of chord tones and the notes in between. There is no need to practice 3 separate "types of improvising".

yeah i know, i just couldnt think of a way to explain that i was using chord tones, scale runs, sweep picking, making random melodies, EVERYTHING that i play.
(i dont practice JUST using chord tones, and then JUST scale runs, i practice everything together)
my 6 best friends:
Ibanez Artcore AF75
Schecter C-1 Hellraiser
LTD H-207 7 string
Ibanez Acoustic
#23
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
yeah i know, i just couldnt think of a way to explain that i was using chord tones, scale runs, sweep picking, making random melodies, EVERYTHING that i play.
(i dont practice JUST using chord tones, and then JUST scale runs, i practice everything together)



yeah I understand.
#24
Quote by GuitarMunky
don't get too caught up in the fancy terms. They look great on paper, and might intrigue you, but there is no need to practice 3 separate "types of improvising". If you're improvising, you'll likely want to play melodically (like most players), which means the use of chord tones and the notes in between.

- Know chord tones
- know scales (including modes)
- understand what a melody is (consists of).
- listen to music and consider those issues.



Shockingly, I agree completely.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.


Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
#25
Quote by The_Sophist
Shockingly, I agree completely.


Im shocked that your right about something for once!


JK
#26
Curse you.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.


Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
#27
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
no this isnt a thread asking about modes.
i know what modes are, i know how to use them (i think).

a couple days ago i made a pretty cool souding chord progression that ive been doing improv with.
the progression goes: Am6 - GM7 - Am6 - Em7 - D9
(the first few chords last one measure, but the Em7 and the D9 are both 2 beats.)
the progression is in A dorian.
Well, you don't really need to approach that progresion with modes. It's in G major. The iiadd6 - I can sort of act as an authentic cadence (it uses the same notes which cause V-I movements to resolve).

BTW, I'm assuming you're talking about a playing the changes style of improvising with modes?
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
my question is: do i really need to learn all the shapes of the modes?
No, some people do but it's really not essential. Just as long as you know what notes you're playing and what the chord tones are and what interval the note you're playing makes with the root of the chord playing.
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
or just play the relative major scale over a modal progression?
Some people do that. I don't, but only because it takes a bit more thinking imo opinion.
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
because over that progression ive just been playing the G major scale, focusing on chord tones and stuff, and throwing in a few chromatics.
it sounds fine, but i was just curious if learning the actual shapes of each mode will help me out more.
And that'd be fine

Quote by Led man32
You really want to learn the sounds of the modes. Once you have that in your ear you will gravitate to those sounds when you are improvising.
It's not that simple. Just because something "sounds" like dorian, it doesn't mean you're using dorian. Your ear isn't so sophisticated that it's naturally knowledgable to modal theory.
You still need to learn your stuff, regardless of how good you think your ear is.
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
yeah thats what i do.
over the Am6 chord (i think its technically a Am13 chord cause it has A, C, E, G, and F#)
over that chord ill just do a lick off the A minor pentatonic but add in the F#.
Sort of what I do too.
BTW, Am6 is different to Am13. Am6 doesn't necessarily have a G in it, Am13 always does.
Quote by Archeo Avis

If you are in A dorian, you are not playing the G major scale. They are entirely different. It seems to me that you both don't know what modes and scales are, and don't know the major scale all over the fretboard. In short, you shouldn't be worrying about modes.
He's improvising with modes, not writing progressions with modes. Learn the difference.

Learning the major scale all over the fretboard may be helpfull to some people, but it's not a helpfull response in this thread.

You might want to consider that you're not all knowledgable about every convention in music. Just because you've never heard of so and so convention does not mean it doesn't exist.
Quote by The Saphist
I honestly believe that learning the shapes is actually a bad idea. If you know the notes of the scale (or mode), and can think about the underlying chords as you solo, your note choices will be much potent than if you were running around a pattern.
Maybe

imo shapes can give you a better visualisation of the fretboard. So you can think in both notes and intervals.

Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
in one music book i read it said "horizontal improv" is soloing with scales, "vertical improv" is soloing with chord tones, and "through form" is combining both of them to make a melody.
i guess you could clasify what i do as "through form" improv.
I don't see why you'd limit yourself to one or the other.
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#28
He's improvising with modes, not writing progressions with modes. Learn the difference.


So, when you're improvising, D dorian becomes the same as C major? I imagine A minor does as well.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#29
Quote by Archeo Avis
So, when you're improvising, D dorian becomes the same as C major? I imagine A minor does as well.


i personally believe, that in this situation, realizing that d dorian has the same notes as a C major scale and an A minior scale, to help work your way around the fretboard is pretty understandable!
Quote by joshjhasarrived
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#30
Quote by victoryaloy
i personally believe, that in this situation, realizing that d dorian has the same notes as a C major scale and an A minior scale, to help work your way around the fretboard is pretty understandable!


There is absolutely nothing wrong with understanding the relationship between them. Even better if it helps you maneuver around the fretboard. Just be sure to understand that they are different.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.