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#1
The progression is G/D/F/C

I was wondering how does the F relate to the rest of the key. It's in G, i think because it resolves to G.

Thanks.
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#2
Well it should be an F# [im sure you know that] perhaps the person who wrote the progession went for the sound of the chord over it's diationic relation ?
#3
Well it does creas some chromatics that should allow the F to resolve to the E in the C I bleive?
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#4
The F is there to create a blues-ish vibe (because it´s a chord in the G Mixolydian scale), which means the composer did a modal change.
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#5
Erm couldn't it just be written in the 5th Mode (Mixoldyian mode ) of the C scale?

That would resolve the F issue and still start and end it on G.
Last edited by Douglas Furs at Feb 19, 2009,
#6
It is sad but i know very little theory, can anyone say anyithing about this progression?
A/D/G/C/E
Is there any theory behind this progression? Because i just strummed randomly but it could be interesting if ther could be any real theory behind this.
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#7
Quote by gflip69
The progression is G/D/F/C

I was wondering how does the F relate to the rest of the key. It's in G, i think because it resolves to G.

Thanks.


Key of C

V - IV

If you want to get modal, you could think G Mixolydian.
#8
this looks like the house M.D diagnising team.
uh.... I don't know theory so I cant really help you
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#9
Quote by GuitarMunky

If you want to get modal, you could think G Mixolydian.


Yeah, by just looking at it, that's probably what I'd try first.

Mixolydian is very common in a number of genre's. When I see a major tonic (in this case G), and then see a major chord 1 whole step below that (in this case F), that's a strong indication Mixolydian might be involved.
#13
Quote by Daneeka
It is sad but i know very little theory, can anyone say anyithing about this progression?
A/D/G/C/E
Is there any theory behind this progression? Because i just strummed randomly but it could be interesting if ther could be any real theory behind this.


it would seem to me that that's similar to Hey Joe which is C/G/D/A/E. I've asked about that before and someone said it was just following the circle of 5ths, yours uses the same chords but in reverse with the E still at the end, not sure.
Last edited by The4thHorsemen at Feb 19, 2009,
#15
Quote by bangoodcharlote
The chords in Hey Joe all have some logical relationship to E.


could you maybe explain better? individually any chord has some logical relationship to any other chord. but when multiple chords are used it becomes more difficult to see how they relate to each other if they're not in key. could you actually explain it instead of just spouting out the same vague undefined nonsense you do in every other thread?
#16
Quote by The4thHorsemen
could you actually explain it instead of just spouting out the same vague undefined nonsense you do in every other thread?
If anyone has a question about it, feel free to PM me. You could have just asked me to explain, but you had to tack on that last part; I suppose you missed the "Sue is a god" comment yesterday or Monday or whenever it was this week. Thus, I will not explain my comment to you. However, I am a teacher, so those of you who elect not to be schmucks are welcome to PM me for the answer if you desire.

What's funny about this is that I'm going to forget who the putz is who made the comment and probably explain it to him if he PMs me.
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Feb 19, 2009,
#17
Quote by bangoodcharlote
If anyone has a question about it, feel free to PM me. You could have just asked me to explain, but you had to tack on that last part; I suppose you missed the "Sue is a god" comment yesterday or Monday or whenever it was this week. Thus, I will not explain my comment to you. However, I am a teacher, so those of you who elect not to be schmucks are welcome to PM me for the answer if you desire.

What's funny about this is that I'm going to forget who the putz is who made the comment and probably explain it to him if he PMs me.


sorry, I just get irritated when people say something that doesn't really have any relevance to what's going on. it seems that there are a certain few senior members who always answer questions in a way that does not answer it at all, while degrading the person for asking it, and I'm getting sick of it.
#18
Quote by bangoodcharlote
The chords in Hey Joe all have some logical relationship to E.

So what? Every chord has logical relationship to E.

Hey Joe follows the cycle of fourths. In my opinion this is the best way to understand the Hey Joe chord progression.

You could add a B and F# after the E and hang on that F# for a while playing some minor licks and won't sound like it's in E but in F#.

Or you can stop on the A and it will sound fine in A and there will be no pull toward the E (except that conditioned by listening to and expecting to hear Hey Joe so maybe mix up the rhythm a bit to get out of Hey Joe just to see how the chords work).

That's kind of the point of considering it as a cylce of fourths. It's not a statement that the chords have no logical connection to their root as the G the C and the D can be thought of as borrowed from the parallel minor key.

The point is that the E tonality isn't established by the relationship of the chords except that it ends on E and hangs on E for a few bars.

EDIT: to see the relationship look at the chords in relation to E so
bVI bIII bVII IV I
the first three are "borrowed" from the parallel minor. The second two are from E Major. Jimi liberally applies the m3rd in his licks too.

of course even this doesn't change that they follow a cycle of fourths.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Feb 19, 2009,
#19
Quote by 20Tigers
So what. Every chord has logical relationship to E.


exactly what I'm saying.

Quote by 20Tigers
Hey Joe follows the cycle of fourths. This is the best way to understand this chord progression.

You could add a B and F# after the E and hang on that F# for a while playing some minor licks and won't sound like it's in Em. Or you can stop on the A and it will sound fine in A and there will be no pull toward the E (except that conditioned by listening to and expecting to hear Hey Joe so maybe mix up the rhythm a bit to get out of Hey Joe just to see how the chords work).

That's kind of the point of considering it as a cylce of fourths. It's not a statement that the chords have no logical connection to their root as the G the C and the D can be thought of as borrowed from the parallel minor key.

The point is that the E tonality isn't established until we reach it as a final chord in the chain then we make sense of the chords in retrospect after the established tonic.


and thank you.
#21
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Really? D#9 (D# with a b7 and 9, not D with a #9) has a logical relationship to E?


yea, it does.
#22
Quote by The4thHorsemen
yea, it does.


How?

D# , Fx, A#, C#, E#

Fits well with G# minor, but nothing at all close to E.
#23
It is the V7 chord of G# melodic minor (someone verify this).

The only way to get an E into that chord requires there to be three notes right next to each other in the chromatic scale to be in the chord. In the key of E, it makes absolutely no sense as anything but a passing chord, and none of the chords in Hey Joe are passing chords.
#24
Quote by bangoodcharlote
It is the V7 chord of G# melodic minor (someone verify this).

The only way to get an E into that chord requires there to be three notes right next to each other in the chromatic scale to be in the chord. In the key of E, it makes absolutely no sense as anything but a passing chord, and none of the chords in Hey Joe are passing chords.


I would call it the V9 of G# melodic minor, but you know what you're talking about.

Especially with that spelling it doesn't fit well with E, since the ninth of D# 9 would be an augmented unison in the key of E.
Last edited by isaac_bandits at Feb 19, 2009,
#25
all chords are related in some way, it may be good, or it may be bad. she said the chords have a logical relationship with E, which means absolutely nothing without an explanation as to how they're related, which was the entire point of the question. I could go off on a tangent about how D#9 is related to E, it may not be very good, but they are related some way, even if it's in a dissonant way, but that's beside the point.
#26
I'm sure I could come up with something and we could debate back and forth whether the relationship is "logical" and what constitutes a "logical relationship" between chords as opposed to what an "illogical relationship". But don't we have enough of those kinds of threads? Instead lets just call my statement an exaggeration and let it rest at that.

My point was more in the "So What?" part. I don't mean it in a harsh way or to start a fight but that's something to ask about a statement when you're not sure of the point.

When it was suggested that the chord progression from Hey Joe was built on a cycle of fourths (or circle of fifths) the next post was simply that each of the chords in Hey Joe has a "logical relationship" to E. Without explanation it almost seems to imply that viewing it as a cycle of fourths progression is somehow wrong or misguided in some way.

As I mentioned I understand your rationale behind how the chords might be borrowed but I don't understand the point.

So what if all those chords have a logical relationship to E it's still a cycle of fourths progression, and the strongest relationship in the progression is surely the repetitive chain of down by fourth root movements that lead us to the E.
Si
#27
Quote by isaac_bandits
I would call it the V9 of G# harmonic minor, but you know what you're talking about.
The V chord in a harmonic minor scale has a b9.

Quote by The4thHorsemen
all chords are related in some way, it may be good, or it may be bad.
I said a "logical relationship," and then you proceeded to be a dickhead when "Can you elaborate?" would have worked fine. D#9 is related to E, yes, but there is no reason to play an "E scale" over it; I use the quotes because, without context, it's a D# scale but I'll assume we all understand modes well enough that I can say this and you'll know what I mean. If not, say, "Can you explain what you mean?" rather than, "What the fuck are you talking about you preppy Ivy League slut?"

The five chords used all have a very strong connection with the Em pentatonic. C, G, and D are in the key of Em, so Em pentatonic licks will work fine over them. A is in E Dorian, which contains all the notes of the Em pentatonic, too. Then he plays E. This is the most distant from the Em pentatonic of all the chords, which I wouldn't think would be the case; I noticed it just now, in fact. However, it is common in blues-rock to play a minor pentatonic scale over the corresponding chord (Dm Pent --> D; Gm Pent --> G), so the Em pentatonic is appropriate over the chord as well.

Hendrix wasn't thinking about that when he played the song, but we can analyze it with our knowledge of music theory and theorize why it sounds good.
#28
Quote by The4thHorsemen
all chords are related in some way, it may be good, or it may be bad. she said the chords have a logical relationship with E, which means absolutely nothing without an explanation as to how they're related, which was the entire point of the question. I could go off on a tangent about how D#9 is related to E, it may not be very good, but they are related some way, even if it's in a dissonant way, but that's beside the point.


Maybe you should do that. You'll have a hell of a time with it, considering that D# 9 contains an augmented tonic if it were played in the key of E.

In "Hey Joe" all the chords, C,G,D,A, and E are all found in Emin or Emaj, since Sue never mentioned the quality of the key of E, it can be considered ambiguous, and then depending on whether major or minor is chosen, all chords are diatonic. I'd say thats pretty logical.

D# 9 contains a Major Seventh, Augmented second, Augmented Fourth, Major Sixth and Augmented Octave from E. Two notes fit in E major, one could be respelled to fit E minor, and two fit in neither E major or minor. I'd say thats illogical.
#29
Quote by bangoodcharlote
The V chord in a harmonic minor scale has a b9.

I said a "logical relationship," and then you proceeded to be a dickhead when "Can you elaborate?" would have worked fine. D#9 is related to E, yes, but there is no reason to play an "E scale" over it; I use the quotes because, without context, it's a D# scale but I'll assume we all understand modes well enough that I can say this and you'll know what I mean. If not, say, "Can you explain what you mean?" rather than, "What the fuck are you talking about you preppy Ivy League slut?"


I was a dickhead about it because you say stuff like that all the time. If somebody asks about a progression it's not very helpful to just say they're related to E. if an answer like that was enough for them to understand they wouldn't have asked in the first place.

Since you do stuff like that all the time it keeps getting on my nerves and eventually I have to say something.

Quote by bangoodcharlote
The five chords used all have a very strong connection with the Em pentatonic. C, G, and D are in the key of Em, so Em pentatonic licks will work fine over them. A is in E Dorian, which contains all the notes of the Em pentatonic, too. Then he plays E. This is the most distant from the Em pentatonic of all the chords, which I wouldn't think would be the case; I noticed it just now, in fact. However, it is common in blues-rock to play a minor pentatonic scale over the corresponding chord (Dm Pent --> D; Gm Pent --> G), so the Em pentatonic is appropriate over the chord as well.

Hendrix wasn't thinking about that when he played the song, but we can analyze it with our knowledge of music theory and theorize why it sounds good.


thank you, that's all that was needed.


anyway, I'm sick and don't feel like thinking at the moment anyway, so goodnight.
#30
Quote by bangoodcharlote
The V chord in a harmonic minor scale has a b9.

I said a "logical relationship," and then you proceeded to be a dickhead when "Can you elaborate?" would have worked fine. D#9 is related to E, yes, but there is no reason to play an "E scale" over it; I use the quotes because, without context, it's a D# scale but I'll assume we all understand modes well enough that I can say this and you'll know what I mean. If not, say, "Can you explain what you mean?" rather than, "What the fuck are you talking about you preppy Ivy League slut?"

The five chords used all have a very strong connection with the Em pentatonic. C, G, and D are in the key of Em, so Em pentatonic licks will work fine over them. A is in E Dorian, which contains all the notes of the Em pentatonic, too. Then he plays E. This is the most distant from the Em pentatonic of all the chords, which I wouldn't think would be the case; I noticed it just now, in fact. However, it is common in blues-rock to play a minor pentatonic scale over the corresponding chord (Dm Pent --> D; Gm Pent --> G), so the Em pentatonic is appropriate over the chord as well.

Hendrix wasn't thinking about that when he played the song, but we can analyze it with our knowledge of music theory and theorize why it sounds good.


Is it really that hard to explain yourself instead of padding your ego?


Also, forgive me if I've missed something, but D#9 is the V9/iii in E major. That's not a particularly logical relationship?
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#31
Quote by psychodelia
(to Sue) Is it really that hard to explain yourself instead of padding your ego?



Sue, I think THAT is the fundamental difference you were referring to.
#32
Quote by psychodelia
Is it really that hard to explain yourself instead of padding your ego?


Also, forgive me if I've missed something, but D#9 is the V9/iii in E major. That's not a particularly logical relationship?


That would probably be your best way of tieing the two together. But a mediant chord isn't all that common in a progression, and is even less common to be tonicized, but if you did tonicize it, D#9 wouldn't be all that illogical... Only since G# would be tonicized, the song would now be in G# minor for a few bars, while the key signature still reflected E.
#33
Quote by psychodelia
Is it really that hard to explain yourself instead of padding your ego?
No, but it's less fun.

Quote by psychodelia
Also, forgive me if I've missed something, but D#9 is the V9/iii in E major. That's not a particularly logical relationship?
V9/iii in E major if B9/G#m, well, B9/G# or just B13, though B9/G# makes the most sense to me. Anyway, that chord contains G# B D# A C# while D#9 contains a G note but no G# or Ab and an F note (I'm figuring this out in PTE and ignoring the idea that you can't have a G in the key of G# and it must be Fx, so please excuse my poor spelling).
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Feb 20, 2009,
#34
I would simply be calling it a borrowed chord from it's "parallel mixolydian mode.

IF you look through music theory, you have 3 major modes, and 3 minor modes (and 1 diminished).

Often people borrowed chords from a "parallel mode"

Alot of minor chord progression often borrow b2 degree;s and often minor keys borrow from a bunch like harmonic minor and dorian.

Where major keys often borrow chords from mixolydian and lydian.

In short;

Is this modal music? No

I'm not really in position to add to the existing music theory, but calling this a small modal convention, could be passable, no?

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 20, 2009,
#35
Quote by bangoodcharlote
If anyone has a question about it, feel free to PM me. You could have just asked me to explain, but you had to tack on that last part; I suppose you missed the "Sue is a god" comment yesterday or Monday or whenever it was this week. Thus, I will not explain my comment to you. However, I am a teacher, so those of you who elect not to be schmucks are welcome to PM me for the answer if you desire.

What's funny about this is that I'm going to forget who the putz is who made the comment and probably explain it to him if he PMs me.


Holy ****. Get over yourself. His point was very valid, and he was asking for help. You gave him some meaningless reply that doesn't address his question then act like he should kiss your feet and beg you to explain what you mean.

If your only reason for "helping" people here is to stroke your own ego, you must be a very sad person.

I assure you, you are no God.
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#36
Quote by Guitartist
Holy ****. Get over yourself....you are no God.

As the Beatles so eloquently put it:
Let it be. Let it be.

If you have a problem take it up with a mod but doing this - you're no better. Like I told you in the last thread - pick your battles, this wasn't it.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Feb 20, 2009,
#37
Quote by 20Tigers

As the Beatles so eloquently put it:
Let it be. Let it be.

If you have a problem take it up with a mod but doing this - you're no better. Like I told you in the last thread - pick your battles, this wasn't it.



Sorry, I disagree. The mods have to be tactful. I don't.

If I have a problem with someone, I'd prefer to tell them to their face....and maybe slap them to make sure they get the point. Whining to the mods isn't really my thing.

The other option would be to ignore it....which would have no affect on anything. Not really the best way to bring about a change.
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#38
Quote by bangoodcharlote
No, but it's less fun.

V9/iii in E major if B9/G#m, well, B9/G# or just B13, though B9/G# makes the most sense to me. Anyway, that chord contains G# B D# A C# while D#9 contains a G note but no G# or Ab and an F note (I'm figuring this out in PTE and ignoring the idea that you can't have a G in the key of G# and it must be Fx, so please excuse my poor spelling).


How does this work?

I've always thought the iii of E major was G#m and the V of G#m was D#7. The only problem is it would usually have the minor nine, but the melodic minor could be used to get a major ninth.

Actually I think you just misunderstood his post as saying "V9 over iii" rather than "V9 of iii" as it would normally be read using classical notation (is there a "proper term"?)

Quote by xxdarrenxx
I would simply be calling it a borrowed chord from it's "relative mixolydian mode.

IF you look through music theory, you have 3 major modes, and 3 minor modes (and 1 diminished).

Often people borrowed chords from a "paralel mode"

Alot of minor chord progression often borrow b2 degree;s and often minor keys borrow from a bunch like harmonic minor and dorian.

Where major keys often borrow chords from mixolydian and lydian.

In short;

Is this modal music? No

I'm not really in position to add to the existing music theory, but callid this a smal modal convention, could be passable, no?


But the relative Mixolydian would be B Mixo, which would still not have the Fx, A#, or E#
#39
Thank you to everyone who answered my question.
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#40
Quote by isaac_bandits
How does this work?

I've always thought the iii of E major was G#m and the V of G#m was D#7. The only problem is it would usually have the minor nine, but the melodic minor could be used to get a major ninth.

Actually I think you just misunderstood his post as saying "V9 over iii" rather than "V9 of iii" as it would normally be read using classical notation (is there a "proper term"?)


But the relative Mixolydian would be B Mixo, which would still not have the Fx, A#, or E#


My sincere apologies, I meant Parallel

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