#1
Ive been trying to learn modes recently im just taking and educated guess at the moment but if you have the harmonic minor in A
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
A,B,C,D,E,F,G#,A

IT would be ionian Right , but if u flattened the C and the G# it would become dorian right
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1
A,B,Cb,D,E,F,G, A
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#3
I dunno lol


seriously I think you're right, it becomes dorian if you flattened those 2
but I may be wrong
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#4
I think its C natural for dorian, Im pretty sure.

I dont know for sure though.

Unless your talking about modes of the harmonic minor, and not modes of the major scale.

Wait sorry my mistake. There would have to be an F sharp for a dorian. I think what you have there is Aeolian.
Last edited by Dookie92 at Feb 22, 2009,
#6
It is much easier to learn modes basing you knowledge on a major scale, so we'll use C.

Ionian
Same at the major scale
C D E F G A B C

Dorian
Natural minor with a major sixth
C D Eb F G A Bb C

Phrygian
Natural minor with a flattened second
C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C

Lydian
Major scale with a sharp fourth
C D E F# G A B C

Mixolydian
Major scale with a flat seventh
C D E F G A Bb C

Aeolean
Natural Minor
C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

Locrian
Natural minor with a flat two and five
C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C


Now, what confuses people is the notes. C major and D dorian have the same notes, but they ARE NOT the same thing. The intervals are what matter, and these scales have very different intervals.

The way you use one and not the other is the underlying harmony. If you write a chord progression in C major it is impossible to play D Dorian, or any other mode of C, it will just be the C major scale with the wrong notes stressed.

To play a modal melody, you need a modal chord progression. Modes are harmonically unstable, which means if you don't keep them simple they will try to resolve to thier parent major or minor scale, so we use as few chords as possible when we want to play modally. The way to write a modal chord progression is to keep it to about 2 or 3 chords, and make sure the modal notes are in some of the chords.

ex. C - D

This is a very simple and good chord progression for C Lydian. The C major makes sure the listener knows C is the tonal center, and the D major chord has the modal note (F# in this case) as it's third, which would normally be F.

Hope I helped
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#7
Quote by Emo-Slayer
Ive been trying to learn modes recently im just taking and educated guess at the moment but if you have the harmonic minor in A
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 1
A,B,C,D,E,F,G#,A

IT would be ionian Right , but if u flattened the C and the G# it would become dorian right
1 2 bb3 4 5 b6 b7 1
A,B,Cb,D,E,F,G, A

I fixed your numerical representation. Remember: The numbers are always in relation to the major scale.

So the Harmonic Minor is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7.

Dorian is not an instruction "flat the 3rd and flat the 7th." It's a description "this scale has a Root Maj2 min3 P4 P5 Maj6 and min7".

So if we took Harmonic Minor and lowered the third and seventh in the Harmonic Minor by a semitone it would result in a Root Maj2 Dim3 P4 P5 min6 min7. See how this is very different than the Dorian Mode?

To get the second mode of the Harmonic Minor you would use the step pattern of Harmonic Minor W H W W H W+H H and start on the second step H W W H W+H H W the result is 1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7 If you want a name in modal terms then look for the closest mode which would be Locrian with a natural 6. This makes sense since Harmonic minor is itself natural minor (aeolian) with a raised 7.

The third mode of Harmonic minor would be an augmented scale. If you do the workings with the step patterns W W H W+H H W H = 1 2 3 4 #5 6 7. it's just the Major scale with a raised fifth.

Next is the fourth mode of the harmonic minor = W H W+H H W H W = 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7
This is the closest to Dorian and could be called Dorian #4 because it has all the elements of Dorian with a sharped 4.

The most common mode of the Harmonic Minor is the fifth mode.
H W+H H W H W W = 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7. This has the basic elements of the Phrygian mode the b2 b6 b7 but with a major 3 instead of a minor third. The major third results in the scale outlining the notes of a dominant 7th chord - namely 1 3 5 b7. Hence it is known as Phrygian Dominant.

Do you see how the names are descriptions of the intervals in a scale not instructions to alter the intervals in a certain way?

Hope this helps.
Si
#9
Quote by 20Tigers

So if we took Harmonic Minor and lowered the third by a semitone it would result in a Dim3

So if, for example the interval A to A# is an Augmented Unison, would A to Ab be a Diminished Unison? Very rare I know but... just wondering. Strictly speaking, neither is a minor 2nd interval.
#10
I have no idea.

The case of the dim3rd above is a bit crazy since the note is enharmonic with another note already present in scale. Having the same tone filling two functions in the same scale is impossible I think. Saying C is the 2nd and Bb the minor third of the same scale is nonsensical to me.

In the case you speak of - A to A# as an augmented unison - I guess that would be right.
I don't really know though. I probably wouldn't think of it like that.
Si
#11
I guess you could just say "well Ab to A is an Augmented Unision".

Much the same "craziness" if you were to list the intervals for, say, Super Locrian 2 different ways:

R b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 A diminished fourth?

or

R b2(9) #2(9) 3 b5 #5 b7
Last edited by mdc at Feb 23, 2009,
#14
Quote by branny1982
I seem to remember reading that a unison is the only interval that cannot be flattened.

It has been a while since i learnt any theory though!

Yeah I'm pretty sure I've read that somewhere too. You can have an Augmented unison but not a diminished unison - or something like that. I don't know what context would give you reason to call it an Augmented Unison but I remember reading something like that.
Si
#15
Augmented unison would never happen, because all the other notes are based on the tonic. A dimished third is enharmonic to a major second, and would be useful (subjectivly) if the scale had a minor second as it's second degree.
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Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.


Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
#16
Well you can't have a diminished or augmented root because all the other notes are named in reference to the root so the root is what it is.

But as for what I read about the augmented unison and diminished unison I thought it was insane. I can't remember where I read it and they didn't explain the reasons why. I was left thinking that if you could have an augmented unison then what would it's inversion be? Surely it would be a diminished unison.

For example if we had an 8 note scale like
1 2 b3 4 b5 5 6 b7. If we write these notes out in A it would be A B C D Eb E F# G
So the distance between D and Eb is pretty easy right it's a minor 2nd.
But what's the name of the interval between Eb and E?
Si
#17
A semitone?
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.


Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
#18
Yeah but that doesn't feel satisfying somehow? Why not augmented unison? I know the term sounds almost counterintuitive but it seems logical in that circumstance.

If it were accepted then why wouldn't the inverse (E - Eb) be a diminished unison.

I don't know?
Si
#19
I can't think of a circumstance where these terms would be used.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.


Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
#20
You're treating the harmonic minor as an analogue for the Ionian mode, which simply doesn't work.
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