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#1
READ B4 POST

Have you ever considered if health insurance is even a good thing?

I know people need a way to get their medical needs taken care of without breaking the bank, but have you thought about why it is so expensive to begin with?

I'm sure you are all familiar with price and demand, the "medical market" is like any other market. If 90% of the sick consumers can't afford their medicine, then they have no choice but to lower the cost. Simple. The price for medicine/medical treatment SHOULD fluctuate depending on the buyer's ability to pay. Very simple.

This is where insurance f*cks it all up.

Insurance (as you know) is a man saying to a group of people, "If you all give me $50 every week, I will pay for any treatment and medicine you all need!". That sounds nice and convenient, but all it really does is let the doctors name their own prices.

When insurance is nothing more than a big pot of cash that can be reached into, and any ridiculous amount of money can be taken out to pay for medicine/medical care, price and demand suddenly disappears.

The price for medicine is so amazingly high right now, because it can be. They can charge whatever the hell they want to, and insurance will pay for it. Making it nearly impossible to pay for medical treatment yourself. As an individual with limited income, you are getting charged the exact same amount as the man with the giant pot of cash. And why the hell shouldn't you? There is a giant pot of cash right there and it's willing to pay whatever you demand!

It's because of health insurance that medicine/treatment is so expensive.

Health insurance makes medicine so expensive, that you need health insurance to survive. Silly isn't it?
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Last edited by touji-za-nai at Feb 22, 2009,
#2
A national health system is better.
Quote by n to the k
^ you are wise


Quote by Maus24
There's been sooo many threads done on this; I don't even wanna hear that you used the searchbar. Staring at it and giggling does not count.
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#3
Quote by Supertait
A national health system is better.



I do believe the can of worms has been opened...


I agree.
#4
its worth it, our health insurance didnt cover my dad getting his heart checked out and now we owe 13,000 dollars to them, and we've lost close to a million dollars because of the recession
#5
Quote by Powerhouse
I do believe the can of worms has been opened...


I agree.



Haha, yeah I opened it too with the NHS thread a while back.
Quote by n to the k
^ you are wise


Quote by Maus24
There's been sooo many threads done on this; I don't even wanna hear that you used the searchbar. Staring at it and giggling does not count.
The worlds fu cked up and we lit the fuse, its all used up what you gonna do?
#6
Oh what was that? I couldn't hear you over our awesome NHS...
"Loathe metaphors. Pander to undereducated masses. Get doctorate, have a real conversation" Mordin Solus
#8
Quote by Encyclopedia
Oh what was that? I couldn't hear you over our awesome NHS...




*Slams face against door and goes to hospital for free treatment.*
#9
Quote by therealtater
its worth it, our health insurance didnt cover my dad getting his heart checked out and now we owe 13,000 dollars to them, and we've lost close to a million dollars because of the recession

If you read TSs post, he says that insurance allows doctors to name their own prices, so according to him, if it wasn't for insurance, then it wouldn't be so expensive.

Just repeating what I read.
#10
Quote by jetfuel495
If you read TSs post, he says that insurance allows doctors to name their own prices, so according to him, if it wasn't for insurance, then it wouldn't be so expensive.

Just repeating what I read.


thats what I get for not reading maybe I should do that
#11
Quote by Supertait
A national health system is better.



* sigh *

good-bye, capitalism. good-bye america.
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#12
Quote by Encyclopedia
Oh what was that? I couldn't hear you over our awesome NHS...


nice one.
#13
I hate insurance of any kind. I look at it like the Mafia. You are paying someone for protection, JUST IN CASE, something happens. Where it differs from the mafia or any other form of protection is when something does happen, these greedy companies look for any possible reason not to pay for the bill, any technicality that can let them off the hook. If someone is in a hospital the insurance companies are trying to get them out as quick as possible. And then once you are out, they raise your rates because all of a sudden you are an 'at risk' customer. It is nothing short of robbery and in my mind it is much smarter to set up a health savings account in which I can choose to deposit money as I please.
#14
this is why I love living in Canada, thank you Tommy Douglas.
#15
Quote by Fender52604
* sigh *

good-bye, capitalism. good-bye america.



Not really, in fact it works pretty damn good in Canada.

Us Americans need to get over this self-righteous, "American way of life, capitalism" condescending power trip we've been on for over 400 years. The American dream died a very long time. Nobody has a white picket fence, a dog and two happy children. Nobody succeeds in the current system, the few control the many, and the few have all the money whilst the many suffer.

A National health system is a brilliant idea, the only problem with it is things that are detrimental to you're health are more expensive, such a cigarettes and alcohol.
#16
Quote by silversoulcage
Not really, in fact it works pretty damn good in Canada.

Us Americans need to get over this self-righteous, "American way of life, capitalism" condescending power trip we've been on for over 400 years. The American dream died a very long time. Nobody has a white picket fence, a dog and two happy children. Nobody succeeds in the current system, the few control the many, and the few have all the money whilst the many suffer.

A National health system is a brilliant idea, the only problem with it is things that are detrimental to you're health are more expensive, such a cigarettes and alcohol.


That's why they are taxed so heavily. I'm pretty sure that the tax from cigarettes easily covers the treatment of smokers.
#17
Quote by silversoulcage
Not really, in fact it works pretty damn good in Canada.

Us Americans need to get over this self-righteous, "American way of life, capitalism" condescending power trip we've been on for over 400 years. The American dream died a very long time. Nobody has a white picket fence, a dog and two happy children. Nobody succeeds in the current system, the few control the many, and the few have all the money whilst the many suffer.

A National health system is a brilliant idea, the only problem with it is things that are detrimental to you're health are more expensive, such a cigarettes and alcohol.



i dont want to be like canada. being like canada = unamerican.


dumb question though. with a national health system, my taxes will go up to pay for it, right? why is it my responsibility to pay for the well-being of others?
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#18
^ It's still insurance

The government has a ton of money, and the doctors (or suppliers) want it. So what do they do?

They raise prices that's what they do, and our government pays for it.

Where, if health insurance never existed, the price for medicine and treatment wouldn't be too much for the private individual to pay for. And we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
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#19
the bottom line is...with a national system...no one makes money off of it except the doctors...almost everything in the government has to do with making money...everyone wants to line their pockets..its sickening, the corruption is everywhere..same with the new bailout plan..the republicans are mad because it wont put money in their pockets
#20
It's obvious you got screwed over somehow by your insurance company. I work for an insurance company and though i don't agree with all the things they do it's not completely their fault for the price of your health insurance. Here's a few reasons why we needed to raise our prices this year.
- The wonderful government decided we needed to support more medicare people but that we were getting reimbursed too much by the govt for their product. To put it bluntly they gave us more people we need to support but aren't giving us as much money.
- CMS recently started to require any and all portable media too be encrypted along with any laptops, email, smartphones. This created a 25000 project for us. We had to purchase new servers to support the software, new phones because the ones we had kept dieing when we encrypted them and extra manypower to install this software on 400+ laptops.

And the analogy that it's a big pot of money and one man saying that they pay whatever they ask is bogus as well. we have nurses and doctors on staff that review and challenge anything that isn't right. My father recently went to the doctors without insurance and he was asked to pay more than if he had insurance.

Yes, some of the system is broke but it's not just one person.
#21
the only time supply and demand would work in this case would be with GPs and Plastic Surgeons, for most essential medical things, doctors are scarce enough that they can name thier own prices anyway. People who try to apply supply and demand to essential services are idiots.
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#22
Quote by gmillerjr
It's obvious you got screwed over somehow by your insurance company. I work for an insurance company and though i don't agree with all the things they do it's not completely their fault for the price of your health insurance. Here's a few reasons why we needed to raise our prices this year.
- The wonderful government decided we needed to support more medicare people but that we were getting reimbursed too much by the govt for their product. To put it bluntly they gave us more people we need to support but aren't giving us as much money.
- CMS recently started to require any and all portable media too be encrypted along with any laptops, email, smartphones. This created a 25000 project for us. We had to purchase new servers to support the software, new phones because the ones we had kept dieing when we encrypted them and extra manypower to install this software on 400+ laptops.

And the analogy that it's a big pot of money and one man saying that they pay whatever they ask is bogus as well. we have nurses and doctors on staff that review and challenge anything that isn't right. My father recently went to the doctors without insurance and he was asked to pay more than if he had insurance.

Yes, some of the system is broke but it's not just one person.


it's funny you think i was screwed over by my insurance. I have never been screwed by my insurance, and I am currently out of debt because I know how to keep my wallet in my pants.
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#23
Quote by Fender52604
i dont want to be like canada. being like canada = unamerican.


dumb question though. with a national health system, my taxes will go up to pay for it, right? why is it my responsibility to pay for the well-being of others?



If you get hurt, sick, if you die, if anything bad were to happen you would be covered. A NHS is the exact same thing as private health insurance only it's more efficient and everyone is covered. It's you're responsibility to take care of yourself, and you're tax dollars will do that.

And please spare the me "I'm an American" ego trip. Being American means two things now.

1. You can't get a job no matter how hard you try.
2. And if you're not in the Military and you go to the Middle east you're going to die.

That's all being American is now. It's not about freedom, or expression, or equal opportunity anymore. The old America is dead and gone and we need a great deal of change in a great deal of areas and it's people like you that prevent that change.
#24
Quote by silversoulcage
Not really, in fact it works pretty damn good in Canada.

Us Americans need to get over this self-righteous, "American way of life, capitalism" condescending power trip we've been on for over 400 years. The American dream died a very long time. Nobody has a white picket fence, a dog and two happy children. Nobody succeeds in the current system, the few control the many, and the few have all the money whilst the many suffer.

A National health system is a brilliant idea, the only problem with it is things that are detrimental to you're health are more expensive, such a cigarettes and alcohol.


The "American Dream" is NOT about having a white picket fence, a dog, and two happy children. The American Dream is about starting with nothing and making it up to something big. The Puritans who first came here had nothing and had to build their communities up from scratch and learn how to survive in this new world. In terms many might understand, the American Dream is about "rags to riches."
And nobody succeeds in the current system? How many people do you know that are starving, can't get a job, have nowhere to go, etc.? I should hope not many unless you commune with a lot of homeless people (no problem with that, in fact that would be great, but few people actually do that). People succeed in the system, it just depends on your definition of success. If your definition of success is to be a rich bastard who can throw money around like confetti then sure, everyone fails. But I really hope thats not your definition of success.
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#25
Quote by Fender52604
i dont want to be like canada. being like canada = unamerican.


dumb question though. with a national health system, my taxes will go up to pay for it, right? why is it my responsibility to pay for the well-being of others?


Guess what, private health insurance is the same way, only it's more expensive.
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#26
Quote by darkwolf291
the bottom line is...with a national system...no one makes money off of it except the doctors...almost everything in the government has to do with making money...everyone wants to line their pockets..its sickening, the corruption is everywhere..same with the new bailout plan..the republicans are mad because it wont put money in their pockets



why do people like you make out any and all republicans to be powerhungry devils?

i am a republican, specifically a constitutionalist. a proud one. does that make me a terrible person for wanting to uphold the ideals of the founding fathers?
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#27
Quote by Fender52604
why do people like you make out any and all republicans to be powerhungry devils?



Because that's what they've shown us that they are.
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#28
The only thing that has made medicine so expensive is that the US and EU has allowed the companies to take patent on medicine (even tho the governments pay most, not to say all development cost) and not only on the process to make the medicine.
#29
Quote by Kid_Thorazine
Guess what, private health insurance is the same way, only it's more expensive.



its more expensive, but im not paying for everyone else. im paying for myself, so i can justify that. but why should i pay for your well-being--especially if you're not going to take as much care of your body as i am?
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Quote by ChemicalFire
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#30
Quote by ledzeprocks5
The "American Dream" is NOT about having a white picket fence, a dog, and two happy children. The American Dream is about starting with nothing and making it up to something big. The Puritans who first came here had nothing and had to build their communities up from scratch and learn how to survive in this new world. In terms many might understand, the American Dream is about "rags to riches."
And nobody succeeds in the current system? How many people do you know that are starving, can't get a job, have nowhere to go, etc.? I should hope not many unless you commune with a lot of homeless people (no problem with that, in fact that would be great, but few people actually do that). People succeed in the system, it just depends on your definition of success. If your definition of success is to be a rich bastard who can throw money around like confetti then sure, everyone fails. But I really hope thats not your definition of success.



No that's not my definition of success but more and more people every day loose their jobs, their homes, their LIVES. They HAD the American Dream of happiness and comfortable living but then they got ****ed and lost it. The system is broke was my point. The American Dream is not rags to riches, it's a substantial part of it, the American Dream is that if you work hard you can be somebody and plenty of people work hard and still have NOTHING except more bills and more problems.
#31
Quote by Fender52604
its more expensive, but im not paying for everyone else. im paying for myself, so i can justify that. but why should i pay for your well-being--especially if you're not going to take as much care of your body as i am?


you're still paying for the well being of everyone else on that insurance plan...
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#32
Privatised healthcare, and it's effects on the development of treatments and cures, is one of the many cancers upon human society.
#33
Quote by Fender52604
why do people like you make out any and all republicans to be powerhungry devils?

i am a republican, specifically a constitutionalist. a proud one. does that make me a terrible person for wanting to uphold the ideals of the founding fathers?

i didnt mean it like that..i mean the certain republicans denying it....the point is...Obama's making alot of people angry trying to get rid of the people in the government that don't do anything....i think he's gonna clean up the government..i have faith in him..im sorry for offending you..i should have thought it out more..the truth is..its not just republicans...some Democrats are denying it for the same reasons...i should have said the PEOPLE who are denying it...my apologies
Last edited by darkwolf291 at Feb 22, 2009,
#34
Quote by Fender52604
its more expensive, but im not paying for everyone else. im paying for myself, so i can justify that. but why should i pay for your well-being--especially if you're not going to take as much care of your body as i am?



With a NHS you don't pay for everyone else, you pay for yourself, but because it's subsidized by the Gov't it's cheaper for you. And at the end of every year if you paid more money in to the NHS then you used guess what? YOU GET IT BACK. It's called tax returns and it's a beautiful thing.
#35
Quote by Kid_Thorazine
you're still paying for the well being of everyone else on that insurance plan...



what do you mean? like the rest of my family?

or do i not understand the current health system correctly? which i guess is a possibility...
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#36
Quote by Fender52604
its more expensive, but im not paying for everyone else. im paying for myself, so i can justify that. but why should i pay for your well-being--especially if you're not going to take as much care of your body as i am?


Ever wonder where the money your spending on insurance is going when you haven't needed your insurance?

That's right, you are paying for other people
#37
Quote by Fender52604
what do you mean? like the rest of my family?

or do i not understand the current health system correctly? which i guess is a possibility...


no i mean your money is going into a big money pool that covers for the needs of everyone that uses your insurance company.
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#38
Quote by Kid_Thorazine
no i mean your money is going into a big money pool that covers for the needs of everyone that uses your insurance company.



BINGO.

You sir are an educated man.
Last edited by silversoulcage at Feb 22, 2009,
#39
Quote by touji-za-nai
^ It's still insurance

The government has a ton of money, and the doctors (or suppliers) want it. So what do they do?

They raise prices that's what they do, and our government pays for it.

Where, if health insurance never existed, the price for medicine and treatment wouldn't be too much for the private individual to pay for. And we wouldn't even be having this discussion.


I don't know what country you're talking about. The US is Trillions of dollars in debt to other countries from borrowing so much money. We don't have ****!
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#40
I wouldn't say the system is broken, or else it always would have been broken. Capitalism comes along with the fact that any private company can essentially do what they want without the government telling it what to do. That's why many banks went under - they could hand out risky loans if they wanted to, and they did. And then they got screwed. Basically what I'm saying is either you believe Capitalism itself is a broken system (not just that its broken now) or that its not a broken system, it just leaves it open for companies to screw themselves, which is what happened. Personally I'm a fan of Capitalism but in no way is it infallible - in fact its really freakin fallible you just need to have intelligent people at the helms of companies
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