#1
Is there a difference between the chord progressions of these two scales?

I know the Natural minor is directly related to the Major scale and can be used as the relative minor. Is this also true for the harmonic minor? Could i play in G major and then switch to E harmonic minor?
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#2
The minor scale is based on a own convention of resolution, where the harmonic minor basically takes the pinnacle of the major scale resolution convention (the leading tone).

Learn about the major scale and about how/why the leading tone works so well, and you will probably immediately understand what I mean.

In short, the Harmonic minor scale, or rather it's dominant chord built on the 3th degree of the major scale will establish the key of A minor better, because it uses a cadence V7 - i and a leading tone.

vi - V7 - i
would be more characteristic, because A dominant chord naturally resolves to a Major chord.

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#3
U could do anything, but theory wise, i dont think u can because it wll sound abit dissonant when u switch from gmajor to e harmonic minor assuming taht all the chords thats harmonising the scale player is the chords built of the major scale.

It would work if you want it to sound abit tense, by playing the signature 7th of the harmonic minor, but by mashing too much of it it wouldnt sound very pleasant i think, and i think harmonic minor scale is jsut a slightly edited version of the naturla minor made just so it could fit easily with dominant chords, if im wrong, tell me plehzzlawlzalwalawl
#4
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Well Ironically I would see the Harmonic minor have a better Harmonic relationship to the major scale as opposed to the natural minor.

The minor scale is based on a own convention of resolution, where the harmonic minor basically takes the pinnacle of the major scale resolution convention (the leading tone).

Learn about the major scale and about how/why the leading tone works so well, and you will probably immediately understand what I mean with "better".


Oh i always thought that the natural minor was the relative minor of the major scale. When you play the pentatonic major isn't that the same as the natural minor of another key?

Ill have to do some research.
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#5
Quote by nugiboy
Oh i always thought that the natural minor was the relative minor of the major scale. When you play the pentatonic major isn't that the same as the natural minor of another key?

Ill have to do some research.



I edited my post, it was confusing a bit.

Natural minor IS indeed the relative ur right about that. Check my edited post. ^

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#6
Quote by xxdarrenxx
The minor scale is based on a own convention of resolution, where the harmonic minor basically takes the pinnacle of the major scale resolution convention (the leading tone).

Learn about the major scale and about how/why the leading tone works so well, and you will probably immediately understand what I mean.

In short, the Harmonic minor scale, or rather it's dominant chord built on the 3th degree of the major scale will establish the key of A minor better, because it uses a cadence V - i and a leading tone.

vi - V - i would be more characteristic, because A dominant chord naturally resolves to a Major chord.

Why does the leading tone work so well? o_o. Isit because its the root and the most stable? and all (fill in blank here wif letter) Maj or min Chord woulf have the root in it and usually when inverted, it would have the most of? Thats all i can think of...
#7
Quote by dmirtygorachyov
Why does the leading tone work so well? o_o. Isit because its the root and the most stable? and all (fill in blank here wif letter) Maj or min Chord woulf have the root in it and usually when inverted, it would have the most of? Thats all i can think of...



Because it does.

That's how it is made, and I don't know the natural phenomena of it, but because it's used of the past 500 years or so, it is heard as the strongest resolving.

The leading tone is NOT the root. It's the note a semitone before the root.

In the following example it's the B note in the key of C Major.

PLay these notes; C, D, E, F, G, A, B ....

on the .... I bet the only note that would sound right would be a C note. That's just how it is.

You can try and play any other note, but it is common sense that C sounds "the strongest" to play again.

That's why the B note is called the leading tone, cause it leads into the C note (or in another key it leads back into the root/tonic.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 28, 2009,
#8
Hmm thanks i think i understand. I need to carry on with the crusade!
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#9
Quote by nugiboy
Hmm thanks i think i understand. I need to carry on with the crusade!



Yes.

I will make another explanation, to get all the confusion out of the way;

Leading tone is a half step/semitone below the root.

In the Natural minor scale, the leading tone is lowered 1 half step (so it's 2 half steps lower of the tonic/root instead of 1), and it loses somewhat it's appeal to Lead into the tonic/root.

What does the harmonic minor scale do.

It takes the natural minor scale, and raises it back up again a half step, so it's once again a leading tone.

What I always think of is this;
Think of harmonic minor scale as a natural minor scale with a leading tone. (or actually the 7th degree of the minor scale raised back up again 1 half step.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 28, 2009,
#10
About the leading tone, it is just a very strong interval. That is why it is used in the harmonic minor, and the melodic minor came about to bridge the interval between the 6th and the 7th of the harmonic minor so one could utilise the leading tone when ascending up the scale. When descending it isn't neccesary ofcourse.

The relative natural minor (aeolian) starts on the 6th note of the major (ionian scale).
#11
Quote by Regression
About the leading tone, it is just a very strong interval. That is why it is used in the harmonic minor, and the melodic minor came about to bridge the interval between the 6th and the 7th of the harmonic minor so one could utilise the leading tone when ascending up the scale. When descending it isn't neccesary ofcourse.

The relative natural minor (aeolian) starts on the 6th note of the major (ionian scale).


This as well.

I can imagine the initial thought process when they were created 100's of years ago is something along this, based on common sense and logic.

Major scale = made

Person wanted to make a minor scale (progression)

it's not as strong as the Major scale, so it created a leading tone for it, so the progression still has it's minor "colour", but is still harmonically strong.

Because of this, the interval between the 6th degree of the minor scale and the natural 7th degree of the harmonic minor scale is quite big (3 semitones apart)

Guy creates the Melodic minor scale (by raising the b6 back to 6) so every note is either a half or a whole step apart, which works better for melodies/singers back then.

Now everyone is happy.

Formula's;

Major scale = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Minor scale (natural) = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Harmonic Minor = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7
Melodic Minor = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7 (ascending)
Descending the leading note doesn't come in, cause you go from the leading tone to a note lower in the scale as opposed to the root.

Descending the natural minor will suffice.

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#13
kinkmachine, ofcourse you can do anything you want, look at atonal music and the extensive use of chromaticism in a lot of modern music. Jazz doesn't exactly follow the standard classical conventions of music either, harmony from a classical standpoint and from a modern standpoint are very different.

As for the difference in progression (I realised I didn't really answer), basically, you alter the chords according to the scale. So say you had a i7 chord, then you would just raise it if it were in harmonic minor. However, I'm not too sure on this, my theory is rather sub-par.

Edit: xxdarrenxx, you might want to change the formula for melodic minor, it is a little misleading. Maybe throw in a note pointing out that it differs when descending. When ascending, this is when you will be making use of the leading tone, hence it is essentially the major scale but with a b3. When descending however, the need for the leading tone is void, therefore it is just a natural minor (aeolian).
Last edited by Regression at Feb 28, 2009,
#14
Quote by Regression
kinkmachine, ofcourse you can do anything you want, look at atonal music and the extensive use of chromaticism in a lot of modern music. Jazz doesn't exactly follow the standard classical conventions of music either, harmony from a classical standpoint and from a modern standpoint are very different.

As for the difference in progression (I realised I didn't really answer), basically, you alter the chords according to the scale. So say you had a i7 chord, then you would just raise it if it were in harmonic minor. However, I'm not too sure on this, my theory is rather sub-par.

Edit: xxdarrenxx, you might want to change the formula for melodic minor, it is a little misleading. Maybe throw in a note pointing out that it differs when descending. When ascending, this is when you will be making use of the leading tone, hence it is essentially the major scale but with a b3. When descending however, the need for the leading tone is void, therefore it is just a natural minor (aeolian).


Ye ur right.

I shouldn't really explain this in a post, cause there are always little exceptions.

Best is to get a good grasp on major scale theory first.

**fixed**

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#15
There are no "harmonic minor" or "natural minor" chord progressions. Harmonic minor describes a convention within minor tonality in which the seventh degree is made major whenever it is expected to resolve to the tonic, most often when it occurs within the chord built off of the fifth degree. It is not a scale in its own right, and songs are not "in harmonic minor" as opposed to "regular minor". In tonal music, dominant chords are major. Period. This includes music based in a minor key.
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Last edited by Archeo Avis at Feb 28, 2009,