Page 1 of 2
Outside Octaves
Thinking about the octave
Join date: Nov 2005
4,235 IQ
#1
Has anyone read/studied this?

I recently obtained a copy of this, and I'm just wondering what other people's opinion of this newer take on theory is?
"grateful is he who plays with open fingers" - Me

┌∩┐(◣_◢┌∩┐

DO NOT CLICK HERE!
Last edited by Outside Octaves at Mar 2, 2009,
Nick_
as I sd to my
Join date: Aug 2006
38 IQ
#2
Well it's pretty old (been around about 50 years) and while I haven't studied from it, I've heard that it's a little esoteric, but has some really cool stuff if you really get into it.

Good luck with it, though.
Donswald
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2007
224 IQ
#3
It's old, old news. The theory is the first original take on music theory to come from jazz. George Russell introduced the theory to jazz pianist Bill Evans, who showed it to the rest of the Miles Davis band. In 1959 they released Kind of Blue, the first modal jazz album ever, and George Russell's work became the basis for all modal music.
Outside Octaves
Thinking about the octave
Join date: Nov 2005
4,235 IQ
#4
Well, when I said new, I ment new-er... lol. I mean, theory has been around for MANY, MANY ages. I mean, it's only around 50 years old, this book.

So it is really cool then? (for us theory nuts)

I like the idea of tonal gravity. That has me REALLY intreaged in this book. Tonal Gravity just seems so logical, doesn't it?
"grateful is he who plays with open fingers" - Me

┌∩┐(◣_◢┌∩┐

DO NOT CLICK HERE!
Donswald
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2007
224 IQ
#5
People talk about it on this forum all the time. Whenever anyone asks a question about modes, the discussion becomes about this theory.
Dodeka
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2008
124 IQ
#6
Impressive book extolling tonal reorganization on lydian's legitimately important normality.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#7
Quote by Dodeka
Impressive book extolling tonal reorganization on lydian's legitimately important normality.


Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
jazz_rock_feel
UG Resident
Join date: Jun 2006
2,242 IQ
#9
> Original post date: 03-01-2009
> Today's date: 09-22-2012
> Post that bumped the thread:
Quote by Dodeka
Impressive book extolling tonal reorganization on lydian's legitimately important normality.


> mfw
Dodeka
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2008
124 IQ
#10
What's a mere 3.5 years when you're talking about the recognition of lydian as the true master scale of western music?
20Tigers
1
Join date: Jun 2008
640 IQ
#12
Necrobump aside,

I've had some very basic preliminary thoughts on this same idea before I'd ever heard of this guy or his book.

I consider the tonic - P5 relationship to be at the heart of music.

For a number of reasons that I won't go into too deeply I consider the pentatonic scale to be the elementary and most primal musical scale.

If we look at the structure of the pentatonic scale it is based on consecutive perfect fifths from the root...
(starting on C going up in P5ths we get C G D A E)
...put into a single octave...
(C D E G A)
...and so we are able to span an octave with as few notes as possible where no steps are larger than a minor third.

If we want to expand the scale so that the largest step is a whole tone then we need to add a couple of notes to fill make those minor third steps a bit smaller. It would make sense to continue our cycle of fifths up to B and then to F# which would give us a scale equivalent to the Lydian Mode
C D E F# G A B C .

For me this was a passing fascination and I preferred the sound of the the perfect fifth above and the perfect fifth below the tonic as is found in the major scale and the harmonic functions of the I IV V that we all know so well.
Si
Dodeka
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2008
124 IQ
#13
About the necrobump, just so ya know...

Quote by Dodeka
Impressive book extolling tonal reorganization on lydian's legitimately important normality.


I was bored. I won't let it happen again.


It does bring up a fairly interesting discussion...why does the major scale contain only one interval built from an inverse fifth?


I like to imagine a world based on the pentatonic scale. A piano's black keys could be its naturals. We can call them V W X Y Z, VWX being the group of three. The circle of fourths (a fifth would become a fourth) would be V Y W Z X. The white keys would be the chromatic alterations (A would become W#/Xb, B would become X#, etc).
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#16
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
mattrusso
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2012
615 IQ
#17
It essentially invented chord scale theory, which is the basis for almost all modern pop/jazz harmonic theory...

So yeah, it's kind of important.
Last edited by mattrusso at Sep 24, 2012,
chronowarp
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#18
Quote by 20Tigers
Necrobump aside,

I've had some very basic preliminary thoughts on this same idea before I'd ever heard of this guy or his book.

I consider the tonic - P5 relationship to be at the heart of music.

For a number of reasons that I won't go into too deeply I consider the pentatonic scale to be the elementary and most primal musical scale.

If we look at the structure of the pentatonic scale it is based on consecutive perfect fifths from the root...
(starting on C going up in P5ths we get C G D A E)
...put into a single octave...
(C D E G A)
...and so we are able to span an octave with as few notes as possible where no steps are larger than a minor third.

If we want to expand the scale so that the largest step is a whole tone then we need to add a couple of notes to fill make those minor third steps a bit smaller. It would make sense to continue our cycle of fifths up to B and then to F# which would give us a scale equivalent to the Lydian Mode
C D E F# G A B C .

For me this was a passing fascination and I preferred the sound of the the perfect fifth above and the perfect fifth below the tonic as is found in the major scale and the harmonic functions of the I IV V that we all know so well.

Think more about psychoacoustics and the overtone series and you'll reach the same conclusion from a possibly more valid angle.
20Tigers
1
Join date: Jun 2008
640 IQ
#19
I don't know what psychoacoustics are but I know a bit about the overtone series.

The first three overtones (not counting double ups) are the root the perfect fifth and the major third.

Of course there is the perfec fourth between the perfect fifth and the octave but does that count?? Does it??

There are a number of intervals in the overtone series that do not appear in the major scale before some of those that do.

Please elaborate. I'm intrigued.

EDIT: Ah but then the augmented fourth (tritone) is never in the harmonic series so maybe that is the angle I should be looking at??
Si
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#20
Quote by mattrusso
It essentially invented chord scale theory, which is the basis for almost all modern pop/jazz harmonic theory...

So yeah, it's kind of important.


get out
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
primusfan
Conspiracy Music Theorist
Join date: Mar 2004
5,337 IQ
#21
i did a term paper on it. it's horse shit. dont bother.
#DTWD
chronowarp
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#22
Quote by 20Tigers
I don't know what psychoacoustics are but I know a bit about the overtone series.

The first three overtones (not counting double ups) are the root the perfect fifth and the major third.

Of course there is the perfec fourth between the perfect fifth and the octave but does that count?? Does it??

There are a number of intervals in the overtone series that do not appear in the major scale before some of those that do.

Please elaborate. I'm intrigued.

EDIT: Ah but then the augmented fourth (tritone) is never in the harmonic series so maybe that is the angle I should be looking at??


We know the major scale is based on the overtone series, loosely, though the higher we get in the series we're significantly +/- a large amount of cents. However many argue that the lydian dominant sound is just the most stable, naturally occuring scale.

in the overtones series you get R R 5 R 3 5 b7 R 9 3 #11, or tones close to what we'd approximate those to be.
J-Dawg158
UG's Resident Dhampyr
Join date: Nov 2008
154 IQ
#23
Quote by chronowarp
We know the major scale is based on the overtone series, loosely, though the higher we get in the series we're significantly +/- a large amount of cents. However many argue that the lydian dominant sound is just the most stable, naturally occuring scale.

in the overtones series you get R R 5 R 3 5 b7 R 9 3 #11, or tones close to what we'd approximate those to be.


It appears to me that you are confusing the difference between just intonation and equal temperament with whatever point it is you're trying to make.
I'm an
Engeneer
Enginear
Enginere

I'm Good at Math
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
722 IQ
#24
Quote by primusfan
i did a term paper on it. it's horse shit. dont bother.

+1 to this.
Dodeka
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2008
124 IQ
#25
The Pythagorean tritone corresponds to the 729th harmonic, but despite being a power of 3 that's too remote to be significant (the 81st harmonic ditone already makes for an awful major third).

The 11th harmonic is roughly a quarter tone above a P4...if that means anything.


I did a bad thing bumping this thread.
J-Dawg158
UG's Resident Dhampyr
Join date: Nov 2008
154 IQ
#27
Quote by Dodeka


I did a bad thing bumping this thread.


For Shame!!!
I'm an
Engeneer
Enginear
Enginere

I'm Good at Math
chronowarp
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#28
Quote by J-Dawg158
It appears to me that you are confusing the difference between just intonation and equal temperament with whatever point it is you're trying to make.

mmm, no!
J-Dawg158
UG's Resident Dhampyr
Join date: Nov 2008
154 IQ
#29
Quote by chronowarp
mmm, no!


Alright then.

We know the major scale is based on the overtone series, loosely,


The 12-tone chromatic scale is based on the harmonic series, (or overtone series as you refer to it) of which the major scale is a subset. While I find no fault in your logic I just wanted to pedantically point that out.

though the higher we get in the series we're significantly +/- a large amount of cents.


Compared to what? Equal temperament vs. just intonation?

However many argue that the lydian dominant sound is just the most stable, naturally occuring scale.


So... got anything to back it up?

in the overtones series you get R R 5 R 3 5 b7 R 9 3 #11, or tones close to what we'd approximate those to be.


Yes and if you keep on iterating, then you eventually get the entire 12-tone system along with some different enharmonic tones(i.e. an Ab unequal to a G#).

I see no point to your random collection of facts.

Quote by 20Tigers
Please elaborate. I'm intrigued.
I'm an
Engeneer
Enginear
Enginere

I'm Good at Math
chronowarp
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#30
anything to back it up....the strongest (first occuring) overtones in the series roughly spell a dom7#11

not sure why you think im confused about temperament...I didn't say anything about temperament...I replied to a post about why he thought Lydian was the strongest tonal center, like george russel presents in his book (stacked 5ths). I gave him another lens to view it through; the way it loosely arrives out of the overtone series.

I can't believe I'm arguing with someone named J-dawg. That's just embarassing.
Last edited by chronowarp at Sep 26, 2012,
J-Dawg158
UG's Resident Dhampyr
Join date: Nov 2008
154 IQ
#31
We know the major scale is based on the overtone series, loosely, though the higher we get in the series we're significantly +/- a large amount of cents.


↑ This ↑

What kind of varience are you talking about?
I'm an
Engeneer
Enginear
Enginere

I'm Good at Math
Dodeka
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2008
124 IQ
#32
It's too much of a stretch to say the major scale is based on overtones. The major triad is, but the presence of the P4 and M6 alone suggests there is an overriding ideal.

You can use 8:9:10:11:12 to justify sharpening the fourth degree (the undecimal tritone), but that still doesn't account for the sixth degree (is it 13:8 or 7:4, the latter being considered a subminor seventh?).

I would agree the eleventh harmonic is not insignificant to the ear, though. It's just not significant to the derivation of the scale of Western music.

We could just say our principal scale is octatonic; 8:9:10:11:12:13:14:15:16 with continually diminishing step sizes leading up the octave. Harmony might be a tad awkward. Not many 3:2's, for starters.

I don't see undertones as any less significant than their vaunted inverses.
chronowarp
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#33
Quote by J-Dawg158
↑ This ↑

What kind of varience are you talking about?


I don't understand your question. You seem a bit confused. I think we both understand the overtones series doesn't match JI or 12TET exactly, but my statement has absolutely nothing to do with temperament. Moreover, my statement wasn't even definitive or meant to be explanatory in any other way than giving the poster another perspective.
Last edited by chronowarp at Sep 26, 2012,
chronowarp
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#34
Quote by Dodeka
It's too much of a stretch to say the major scale is based on overtones. The major triad is, but the presence of the P4 and M6 alone suggests there is an overriding ideal.

You can use 8:9:10:11:12 to justify sharpening the fourth degree (the undecimal tritone), but that still doesn't account for the sixth degree (is it 13:8 or 7:4, the latter being considered a subminor seventh?).

I would agree the eleventh harmonic is not insignificant to the ear, though. It's just not significant to the derivation of the scale of Western music.

We could just say our principal scale is octatonic; 8:9:10:11:12:13:14:15:16 with continually diminishing step sizes leading up the octave. Harmony might be a tad awkward. Not many 3:2's, for starters.

I don't see undertones as any less significant than their vaunted inverses.

I believe the argument goes:
the most audible overtones of a tonic have simple ratios 3:2(5th), 4:3(4th)
and the strongest overtones off those chords collectively give you the notes of a major scale. C G E, F C A, G D B--->C D E F G A B= Cmaj
Last edited by chronowarp at Sep 26, 2012,
Dodeka
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2008
124 IQ
#35
Right, the 5-limit version is 4:5:6 built from the root, fourth and fifth. Unwanted drift will occur changing between ii and vi though.


Even accepting the eleventh harmonic as significant, in terms of commatic variance it's closer to the perfect fourth (33:32, 53.2 cents) than it is to the tritone (729:704, 60.4 cents).
wolflen
one note away from satori
Join date: May 2008
11 IQ
#37
ahhh..the overtone series...the twilight zone of music theory...
J-Dawg158
UG's Resident Dhampyr
Join date: Nov 2008
154 IQ
#38
My question was "What do you mean by your statement?" The way I understood it was as you continue to increase along the harmonic series it diverges from the notes of the major scale which I disagree with. As the series increases it either adds tones, or it repeats a previous tone by way of octaves. Although, I suppose you could consider the fact that the initial tones occur less and less as a divergence I wouldn't characterize it as such.

But as you say it wasn't meant to be explanatory so I don't really care anymore.

Oh and to your clever use of the edit button:
I'm an
Engeneer
Enginear
Enginere

I'm Good at Math
Dodeka
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2008
124 IQ
#39
Got to admit, though; the 11:8 interval is pretty kew'. Been listening to it here.