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#1
Okay, so I have this one thought/theory deal is always in my head, and whenever I think about it, it grows and grows and I'm stuck doing nothing but trying to explain it more to myself.

Okay, so here it is.

Based on the theory of "Every action has an equal but opposite reaction" that would mean, every single action to ever happen happened because of one action, and every action happens because of the action before it, right before it. So therefore, this conclusion means of possible pre-destination. Because everything happens for a reason. Everything down to the cellular level happens off of one action billions of years ago, or even before that who knows. Everything matters, every action is as important as the one before it. Everything you do, although you only do it because of what happened before, matters on what will happen next.

Because something happened years and years and years ago, apes evolved in to man, man walked upright, man learned to talk, man learned how to invent, man divided into tribes, man invited the car, then the internet, then we are here right now because of the same action.



Anyone follow that?
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#3
*Grinds out joint

That's deep, man.
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#4
That's a cool idea. Never thought of that.
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#5
Quote by creeping.death!
Yeah, it's called determinism.

It's basically the belief that every event is determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.

But it makes sense. Like it has to be, every action happened because of previous provided that theory is true right?
Whatever happened to sweet Jane?
#6
I think I can cure your troubles because your logic's got an hole in. I think it's called an infinite regression.

If everything was caused by something else, then, everything was caused by something else. Eventually you reach the idea of one Grand Event of Causation that sparked the whole lot of what we experience of the Whole Sort Of General Mish-Mash today. But if everything was caused by something else, then something must have caused that, and something must have caused that, and so on. It's a logical fallacy.

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#7
Quote by SteveHouse
I think I can cure your troubles because your logic's got an hole in. I think it's called an infinite regression.

If everything was caused by something else, then, everything was caused by something else. Eventually you reach the idea of one Grand Event of Causation that sparked the whole lot of what we experience of the Whole Sort Of General Mish-Mash today. But if everything was caused by something else, then something must have caused that, and something must have caused that, and so on. It's a logical fallacy.

So that means "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" is not entirely true?
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#8
Quote by Spoony_Bard
So that means "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" is not entirely true?

No. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" is a law of physics, more specifically force. It's essentially a catch-phrase for the laws of conservation of mass and conservation of energy. Not philosophy or metaphysics.

[IN PHIL WE TRUST]


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#9
Quote by DoTheEvolution
But it makes sense. Like it has to be, every action happened because of previous provided that theory is true right?


The problem is that, at a quantum level, there are some things that are seemingly "random" So, until we find out how things work there, we can't be sure (although I do believe in determinism).

Quote by SteveHouse
I think I can cure your troubles because your logic's got an hole in. I think it's called an infinite regression.

If everything was caused by something else, then, everything was caused by something else. Eventually you reach the idea of one Grand Event of Causation that sparked the whole lot of what we experience of the Whole Sort Of General Mish-Mash today. But if everything was caused by something else, then something must have caused that, and something must have caused that, and so on. It's a logical fallacy.


Not really. You just need a first cause (outside of our universe) that triggered said chain of events.
Last edited by creeping.death! at Mar 5, 2009,
#10
Quote by SteveHouse
I think I can cure your troubles because your logic's got an hole in. I think it's called an infinite regression.

If everything was caused by something else, then, everything was caused by something else. Eventually you reach the idea of one Grand Event of Causation that sparked the whole lot of what we experience of the Whole Sort Of General Mish-Mash today. But if everything was caused by something else, then something must have caused that, and something must have caused that, and so on. It's a logical fallacy.

Well, there is one action, there is a first action I believe. Be it the big bang, or something before it. Like we can't really be sure that this universe is the first time any universe like thing existed right?

Kind of like how we can't be sure earth was inhabited by another human like race more than how many ever billions of years they predict the world to be? Like they could of been completely wiped out some how.

But I think there is a start point, some how. But I don't know, I guess something would have to start that....aaaggggghhh!
Whatever happened to sweet Jane?
#11
Quote by creeping.death!

Not really. You just need a first cause (outside of our universe) that triggered said chain of events.

Why wouldn't that first cause have to have been caused? I mean, causation's a pretty damned important thing to randomly invent.

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#12
Read up on quantum mechanics.

I used to think that if you could plot the position, direction of movement, and speed/acceleration of EVERY particle in the universe then you could (hypothetically) predict the future.

Besides the fact that this would be impossible, some particles move at random so you could never know where they are going.
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#13
Quote by SteveHouse
No. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" is a law of physics, more specifically force. It's essentially a catch-phrase for the laws of conservation of mass and conservation of energy. Not philosophy or metaphysics.

That's what I was thinking when I read TS's post.
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#14
Quote by SteveHouse
No. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" is a law of physics, more specifically force. It's essentially a catch-phrase for the laws of conservation of mass and conservation of energy. Not philosophy or metaphysics.

How wouldn't it be applied to anything else? Force is a pretty big thing that runs a lot of life.

Like, everything.....
Whatever happened to sweet Jane?
#15
Quote by SteveHouse
Why wouldn't that first cause have to have been caused? I mean, causation's a pretty damned important thing to randomly invent.


Because we don't know how things work outside of our universe. It could've triggered itself as far as we know.
#16
Quote by wiliscool
Read up on quantum mechanics.

I used to think that if you could plot the position, direction of movement, and speed/acceleration of EVERY particle in the universe then you could (hypothetically) predict the future.

Besides the fact that this would be impossible, some particles move at random so you could never know where they are going.

How can we be certain that some particles move at random?
Whatever happened to sweet Jane?
#17
Quote by DoTheEvolution


Everything matters, every action is as important as the one before it. Everything you do, although you only do it because of what happened before, matters on what will happen next.



Call me a nihilistic asshole if you must,
but causation =/= significance.
#18
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#19
Quote by SteveHouse
No. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" is a law of physics, more specifically force. It's essentially a catch-phrase for the laws of conservation of mass and conservation of energy. Not philosophy or metaphysics.


This.
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#20
Quote by superunknown
Call me a nihilistic asshole if you must,
but causation =/= significance.

The fact that it happening has an effect on what will happen everything from the smallest amount of immeasurable time to trillions of years from now seem to significant enough for me to think it's important.
Whatever happened to sweet Jane?
#21
Quote by DoTheEvolution
How wouldn't it be applied to anything else? Force is a pretty big thing that runs a lot of life.

Like, everything.....

You're a coder, eh? Hm. How much physics did you study on the way to that? (It sounds like a dick move but I promise it's an honest question.) Based on high school AP-level physics, the force I'm talking about applies to a very specific thing, one thing doing work on another. It's totally outside gravitation and the electroweak forces. But, you know, it's very likely I'm wrong about that sort of thing.

(alternate ending)

Yeah, midichlorians (spellfail) don't need a cause to help you do anything. They just do.

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#22
it's a combination of things. there are some things that are beyond our control (i.e. down to the cellular level and all), but we still make decisions that aren't predetermined at all.

for instance, if i want to guy buy a coke right now, and someone mugs me while i'm on the way, none of that is predetermined.
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#23
Quote by DoTheEvolution
How can we be certain that some particles move at random?

I'm not a particle physicist, but it has been proven.

Here's something elese to blow your mind; A particle can be in more than one place at a time. Seriously.
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#24
But seriously think about it. How small of things actually effect what you do, even in the short run. Your day for example, you woke up, you did something, and it led you to wonder online, and on to this forum, and to read this thread. If anything was different at anytime of the day, you wouldn't of been doing exactly what you are doing at this very second.
Whatever happened to sweet Jane?
#25
Quote by SteveHouse
Yeah, midichlorians (spellfail) don't need a cause to help you do anything. They just do.


Truth. In any deep discussion, I always agree with the guy who cites Star Wars.
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>¦<
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#26
Quote by SteveHouse
No. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" is a law of physics, more specifically force. It's essentially a catch-phrase for the laws of conservation of mass and conservation of energy. Not philosophy or metaphysics.


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#27
Quote by DoTheEvolution
But seriously think about it. How small of things actually effect what you do, even in the short run. Your day for example, you woke up, you did something, and it led you to wonder online, and on to this forum, and to read this thread. If anything was different at anytime of the day, you wouldn't of been doing exactly what you are doing at this very second.


Well, according to determinism, nothing could've been different. Everything since the universe was created is determined.
#28
Quote by wiliscool
I'm not a particle physicist, but it has been proven.

Here's something elese to blow your mind; A particle can be in more than one place at a time. Seriously.


It's called Heisenburg's uncertanty principle, at least part of it. The movement of electrons is so hard to predict that we can know it's speed at any given time, or it's location at any given time, but not both.


EDIT: It also has to do with the belief that at extremely small levels (like the building blocks of atoms small) all mass behaves like a wave of energy.

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Last edited by Cutlass_253 at Mar 5, 2009,
#29
So demon possessed dogs CAN cause people to go on killing sprees. It all makes sense!
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#30
Quote by creeping.death!
Because we don't know how things work outside of our universe. It could've triggered itself as far as we know.

While we're talking hypothetical philosophy, we don't know what happened five minutes ago. I do know that, for our heads to wrap around it, you can't cause something without existing, so causing yourself kind of makes as much sense as saying "this pie is on the counter, causing it to be on the counter." If we're talking something we aren't capable of understanding due to our planes of existence or something, I'm fairly certain trying to apply logical rules to it is just silly so airplane jellyfish do the macarena on Sunday with Joe Camel's alpaca.

God I think that's hilarious. Even though I know it's not.

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Last edited by SteveHouse at Mar 5, 2009,
#31
Quote by wiliscool
I'm not a particle physicist, but it has been proven.

Here's something elese to blow your mind; A particle can be in more than one place at a time. Seriously.


here's a basic thing on quantum mechanics my class covered today to help explain what he's saying

http://www.doe.carleton.ca/~tjs/1098_notes/lec8.pdf

http://www.doe.carleton.ca/~tjs/1098_notes/Lec3.pdf

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#32
What you're saying is true, it's like the butterfly effect (not the movie).

But events are not predetermined.

You have choice.
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Quote by handbanana
wiliscool is just plain dumb
#34
Quote by SteveHouse
You're a coder, eh? Hm. How much physics did you study on the way to that? (It sounds like a dick move but I promise it's an honest question.) Based on high school AP-level physics, the force I'm talking about applies to a very specific thing, one thing doing work on another. It's totally outside gravitation and the electroweak forces. But, you know, it's very likely I'm wrong about that sort of thing.

(alternate ending)

Yeah, midichlorians (spellfail) don't need a cause to help you do anything. They just do.

The coding I do has no physics study required. But, it often leaves me bored enough to have this creep into my head.

I'll admit that I have no idea if this is true at all or not, but with what limited knowledge I have and what my view of the world looks like and a belief or two I have leads me to this thought. It just fits to me and my low level science knowledge. But it's weird that this thought about everything happening because of what happened before it grows everytime I think about it, like I think about it, and something else about it pops up, and so on and so on...kind of my proof in a way. haha
Whatever happened to sweet Jane?
#35
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If he was smoking dope while thinking of this I give him props. I see a dog taking a **** when I'm high, and i think EPIC!!!
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#37
Quote by wiliscool
What you're saying is true, it's like the butterfly effect (not the movie).

But events are not predetermined.

You have choice.

That's what I kind of have an inner debate.

It sort of is I think, like up until this very moment, but you get to choose what you do next, but the choices you can make are predetermined by what you did before.

Like let's say I want to be an astronaut, I can't do that because I didn't go to school for any other reason than to get drunk and high a lot.

I think that applies with everything really. Predetermination brings you to your choices and the choices are limited to what happened before, but you still have that choice.
Whatever happened to sweet Jane?
#38
Quote by wiliscool
What you're saying is true, it's like the butterfly effect (not the movie).

But events are not predetermined.

You have choice.


Even if events are not predetermined, there's still a belief that all living creatures actions are dictated entirely by the physical properties of their bodies, therefore you don't have choice, LOL.

not that I believe that.

EDIT: I believe it's called determinism. It's psychology though, not physics.

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Last edited by Cutlass_253 at Mar 5, 2009,
#39
Quote by SteveHouse
While we're talking hypothetical philosophy, we don't know what happened five minutes ago. I do know that, for our heads to wrap around it, you can't cause something without existing, so causing yourself kind of makes as much sense as saying "this pie is on the counter, it to be on the counter." If we're talking something we aren't capable of understanding due to our planes of existence or something, I'm fairly certain trying to apply logical rules to it is just silly so airplane jellyfish do the macarena on Sunday with Joe Camel's alpaca.

God I think that's hilarious. Even though I know it's not.


You were the one trying to apply logic to it to begin with.
I just said that you shouldn't rely on it to explain things that are just way ahead of our current understanding of the universe.
#40
If you look even slightly into the world of quantum mechanics; then the only way you can believe this is if you believe there is an omnipotent and omnipresent over-being that has pre-determined every single part of the universe.

I am a physicist, and I promise you that your theory has no bearing unless you by into the idea of "God." Random motion is too prevalent amongst tiny things and human's are much too unpredictable. Sure the idea that "we only got here because of past actions" leads to a lot of thoughts, but every path being predetermined is ridiculous.
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