#1
I'm a theoretical noob... and what is it about the combination of the rhythm and lead riff at this part in the song that makes it sound so nice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEMro7ePDQ

at about 59 seconds the riff starts...

I think the *rhythm* riff is Am, G, F.... I don't know what the lead part is....

Would appreciate any input..thanks.
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Last edited by tona_107 at Mar 6, 2009,
#2
It sounds good because it sounds good. Theory doesn't answer why something sounds good or bad.... those are simply opinions that we ourselves have.

If you want to know what key it's in, or what chords are used..... thats something that can be answered by theory.

btw @ :59 he comes in with a minor pentatonic lick. is that the one you mean?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 6, 2009,
#3
Quote by GuitarMunky
It sounds good because it sounds good. Theory doesn't answer why something sounds good or bad.... those are simply opinions that we ourselves have.

If you want to know what key it's in, or what chords are used..... thats something that can be answered by theory.


aren`t there terms like relative and harmony that describe the relation to the notes that describe why something sounds the way it does? this is what i am asking.
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#5
Quote by tona_107
aren`t there terms like relative and harmony that describe the relation to the notes that describe why something sounds the way it does? this is what i am asking.


@ :59 he comes in with a minor pentatonic lick. is that the one you mean? It would be A minor pentatonic if your right about the chords (which sounds right.... but I don't have a guitar with me to confirm the actual key)
shred is gaudy music
#6
Quote by GuitarMunky
@ :59 he comes in with a minor pentatonic lick. is that the one you mean? It would be A minor pentatonic if your right about the chords (which sounds right.... but I don't have a guitar with me to confirm the actual key)


yes, but its not the lead part i'm interested...it's the relation of the lead part to the rhythm riff that makes it sound so good. and i want to know if it's like a relative minor relationship or something like that...

Quote by RocknRollRay
It's very twangy?


lololololololoolollololololol
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#7
Quote by tona_107
yes, but its not the lead part i'm interested...it's the relation of the lead part to the rhythm riff that makes it sound so good. and i want to know if it's like a relative minor relationship or something like that...


lololololololoolollololololol


Well what makes it sound good, is that it sounded good to him.... and to you. To me it doesn't sound all that great. (no offense intended) Again, "good" has nothing to do with theory, it's an opinion.

I don't hear a relative minor relationship. I hear some dissonant stuff, and then a very brief A minor pent lick over a stock A minor progression. (@:59 anyway). I don't have time to analyze the whole piece. Im sure someone else will take a stab at it though, they usually do, followed by disagreements and arguments, but you might find some answers in there. Stick around it's coming...
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 6, 2009,
#8
Quote by GuitarMunky
Well what makes it sound good, is that it sounded good to him.... and to you. To me it doesn't sound all that great. (no offense intended) Again, "good" has nothing to do with theory, it's an opinion.

I don't hear a relative minor relationship. I hear some dissonant stuff, and then a very brief A minor pent lick over a stock a minor progression. (@:59 anyway). I don't have time to analyze the whole piece. Im sure someone else will take a stab at it though, they usually do, followed by disagreements and arguments, but you might find some answers in there. Stick around it's coming...


at 59 to 104....

I didnt acutially mean there is a relative minor relationship...i don't know too much about that stuff, i was just giving an example of the type of answer im looking for. aka an a minor pentatonic lick over a chord progression in the key of F gives you a __________ relationship you know? yeah dissonance works too...

thanks for the help btw if i don't seem appreciative : ).
always like any input.
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#9
Well the 1st section is in E minor... then he starts throwing some dissonant notes in, then he goes to Am for the brief riff/lick.

Honestly I don't think hes thinking theory/relationships. I think hes thinking "this is the sound I want". and is using the things he is familiar with.

Anyway, that's about all I have time to offer. good luck.
shred is gaudy music
#10
Quote by tona_107
at 59 to 104....

I didnt acutially mean there is a relative minor relationship...i don't know too much about that stuff, i was just giving an example of the type of answer im looking for. aka an a minor pentatonic lick over a chord progression in the key of F gives you a __________ relationship you know? yeah dissonance works too...

thanks for the help btw if i don't seem appreciative : ).
always like any input.



It's because it's the mainriff of "All along the watchtower" which Jimi Hendrix covered from Bob Dylan. Minor pentatonic lick over Am - G - F progression. It also has a bit the same vibe going, dark and reverby.

But ye John Frusciante copies alot of Hendrix, so ye, maybe that's the reason.

Subconscious tribute.

It's also like Stairway to heaven solo which is more appropriate. IT could as easily be a intro lick Jimmy Page would do when playing Stairway to heaven solo live.

But TS, what's the question? Do you want it transcribed or something? What are you hoping to find for?

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
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Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Mar 6, 2009,
#11
Quote by xxdarrenxx
It's because it's the mainriff of "All along the watchtower" which Jimi Hendrix covered from Bob Dylan. Minor pentatonic lick over Am - G - F progression. It also has a bit the same vibe going, dark and reverby.

But ye John Frusciante copies alot of Hendrix, so ye, maybe that's the reason.

Subconscious tribute.

It's also like Stairway to heaven solo which is more appropriate. IT could as easily be a intro lick Jimmy Page would do when playing Stairway to heaven solo live.

It actually starts and ends on the same note as the first lick of the stairway to heaven solo. Even the contour is the same, just a few notes less.

(at 6:24)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60R7ptQ4t5Q&feature=related

But TS, what's the question? Do you want it transcribed or something? What are you hoping to find for?


I'm just trying to understand how music works and why it sounds good...

ok, story time. a long time ago i found this chord progression that i really liked and and i realized that i liked the feel it gave off because it was a relative minor relationship which is like 1 and 1/2 steps down or up or whatever. and so since then I try to integrate stuff like that into my playing and writing... I want to understand the relationship of the lead to the rhythm in this application so i can integrate the theory behind the relationship into my own playing. I don't know if i can make it any more clear sorry... do you understand what i'm trying to get at at all?

Quote by GuitarMunky
Well the 1st section is in E minor... then he starts throwing some dissonant notes in, then he goes to Am for the brief riff/lick.

Honestly I don't think hes thinking theory/relationships. I think hes thinking "this is the sound I want". and is using the things he is familiar with.

Anyway, that's about all I have time to offer. good luck.


haha yes. for sure he isn't thinking theory here, he's thinking i'm really high and i like the way this sounds... haha. regardless of whether he intended to use it though, isn't he still using a relationship that can be described theoretically? whether or not you mean to, i.e. if you're playing something in the key of c, it's in the key of c even if you weren't consciously thinking that.....
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Last edited by tona_107 at Mar 6, 2009,
#12
ah okey, are you familiar with the minor pentatonic scale and blues scale?

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#13
Quote by xxdarrenxx
ah okey, are you familiar with the minor pentatonic scale and blues scale?



I know what they are, and I can play them. I wouldn't know the notes or note relationships (eg 1/2 step then full step etc) or anything more complicated than that.
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Last edited by tona_107 at Mar 6, 2009,
#14
i dont get it is this a stupid question?
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#15
Quote by tona_107
i dont get it is this a stupid question?


Your asking for us to give you analysis beyond what your capable of understanding. You need to learn the fundamentals before any explanations of this nature will make sense to you/make it worth anyones time to answer.

study theory..... keep learning music....... come back and answer this question for yourself when you're ready. It takes time.

sorry, but thats the most honest answer I could offer you.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 6, 2009,
#16
I would say the music is very dissonant and kind of sparse sounding. The riff that comes in there is far more full sounding a standard rock cliche (i bVII bVI with a minor pent lick over top) which provides a strong sense of familiarity for the listener. Hence it has a strong impact even though it leaves as quick as it came.

A brief moment of lucidity in an otherwise dreamy soundscape.

It's about contrasting the unfamiliar, experimental sparse surreal sounds with a familiar proven full sounding standard rock trick. There isn't really much more to say about it apart from tabbing it out and learning the lick.
Si
#17
Quote by GuitarMunky
Your asking for us to give you analysis beyond what your capable of understanding. You need to learn the fundamentals before any explanations of this nature will make sense to you/make it worth anyones time to answer.

study theory..... keep learning music....... come back and answer this question for yourself when you're ready. It takes time.

sorry, but thats the most honest answer I could offer you.


Why wouldn't you just answer it and whether I understand it or not is my problem, and something that I would pursue in understanding. It would seem you don't understand what I'm asking, and that the most honest answer you could give would be to describe what you understand in response to this piece of music. If you don't want to help that's fine but don't blame not being able to help based on my understanding.....you can still give me an answer regardless of whether I understand. I understand enough to know that all relationships are described by music theory and that is music theory's purpose, hence I am asking how the lead and rhythm aspects of this song interact under the parameters of music theory. Regardless of whether I "understand" I don't see how it changes the answer. I think that it may not make sense to me at the time, but I could go and try to pursue that knowledge, so I don't see why someone who is apparently so keen to help really is not at all.
Anyways thanks for your input but I still think someone, doesn't have to be you, could give me a straight answer.
Unless this is a question that can't be answered, which I think it can, it is not a stupid question. This is what I meant by that.

Quote by 20Tigers
I would say the music is very dissonant and kind of sparse sounding. The riff that comes in there is far more full sounding a standard rock cliche (i bVII bVI with a minor pent lick over top) which provides a strong sense of familiarity for the listener. Hence it has a strong impact even though it leaves as quick as it came.

A brief moment of lucidity in an otherwise dreamy soundscape.

It's about contrasting the unfamiliar, experimental sparse surreal sounds with a familiar proven full sounding standard rock trick. There isn't really much more to say about it apart from tabbing it out and learning the lick.


thank you for an answer. I'm glad you thought it was "worth [your] time"
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Last edited by tona_107 at Mar 6, 2009,
#18
Quote by tona_107
Why wouldn't you just answer it and whether I understand it or not is my problem, and something that I would pursue in understanding. It would seem you don't understand what I'm asking, and that the most honest answer you could give would be to describe what you understand in response to this piece of music. If you don't want to help that's fine but don't blame not being able to help based on my understanding.....you can still give me an answer regardless of whether I understand. I understand enough to know that all relationships are described by music theory and that is music theory's purpose, hence I am asking how the lead and rhythm aspects of this song interact under the parameters of music theory. Regardless of whether I "understand" I don't see how it changes the answer. I think that it may not make sense to me at the time, but I could go and try to pursue that knowledge, so I don't see why someone who is apparently so keen to help really is not at all.
Anyways thanks for your input but I still think someone, doesn't have to be you, could give me a straight answer.
Unless this is a question that can't be answered, which I think it can, it is not a stupid question. This is what I meant by that.


thank you for an answer. I'm glad you thought it was "worth [your] time"


Because I've done it many times before and it never is worth the time. Sorry bout that, I didn't mean to offend you, and I did understand what you were asking. I stand by this advice, which I already gave...

study theory..... keep learning music....... come back and answer this question for yourself when you're ready. It takes time.


You took that as in insult, but it wasn't meant that way, and I'm telling you it's actually useful advice. if you follow it, your question will eventually be answered for you in a way that you can truly understand because you will have the necessary foundation to do so.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 6, 2009,
#19
guitar = nice but not my style
vocals = horrible IMO
this is a post. there are many like it but this one is mine

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Taylor Big Baby
Agile 3100 CSB
Peavey classic 30/112
Okko Dominator, Big muff pi, cs3, dd3, ch1, ts9, ad9, classic wah
#20
What are you asking here? Are you asking why it sounds good? Its played nicely, with some emotion, i suppose. It resolves well, and its in the right key.

What else are you asking?