#1
Hey guys,

So, this example I lifted straight from "The Guitar Grimoire - Scales and Modes" (brilliant book, I might add) but I am confused as hell at the example the author gives for chord naming.

Music theorists, stick with me on this one:

The task is to write the numeric formula for a chord that I think must be called a (deep breath) Ebmaj7aug5b13

In the book's notation the chord is written EbΔ+b13 where Δ is the "add a 7th" the + means "add an augmented 5", and the b13 means "add a flat 13th".

The confusing part is the resulting numeric formula the author gives, which is: 1-3-#5-7-9-11-b13

The question is: where the hell did the 9 and 11 come from? What gives, yo?

Thanks in advance for your help!
#2
Any time you have a number chord is it assumed that all the chord tones leading to that scale degree. so for a Cmaj7 b11 it would be assumed that a 9 is included in the chord, if there was no desire for the D (the 9) it would be marked Cmaj7 b11 (omit 9)

Hope this helps
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#3
9 and 11 are extensions of the Eb chord, that are part of the 13 chord. They're not as necessary as other parts of the chord, but they are part of it.

Just how a 7 chord has 3 and 5 along with 1 and b7, the 13 also has a 9 and 11 in its chord.
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#4
The name is pretty ugly the chord is an Eb augmented triad at it's base denoted by the +. This gives us the 1 3 #5

The ∆ means that it is a maj 7th type chord. This gives us the 7.

The b13 means that it is an EXTENDED type of seventh chord namely extended out to the 13th which in this case is flat. An extended chord is a seventh chord and will include all the extensions up to the highest one notated. So a 13th will also include a 9th and 11th.

If he had written "add b13" then it would mean just add the b13 to the chord and not the 9th and 11th.

For example:
C7 = C dominant 7th = 1 3 5 b7
C13 = C dominant 13th = 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13
C11 = C dominant 11th = 1 3 5 b7 9 11
Cadd13 = C major add 13th = 1 3 5 13
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Last edited by 20Tigers at Mar 9, 2009,
#5
If there is no "add" in the name certain notes (or scale degrees) are implied. for example

In a 9 chord a dominant 7 is implied, whereas in a maj9 chord it is a maj7

in a 13 a dominant 7 and Perfect 11 are implied. to alter the 7 you would write maj13 rather than 13. to alter the 11 you would write 13#11 or 13b11 (if you wrote 13+11 that would not signify an aug 11 but instead an aug 5)
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#6
Sweet. That certainly answers my question. Thanks, guys. Now one further question...

Let's say that I DO wish to (randomly) omit the 11. TheEarthisFlat says that this would then be written something like "nasty chord name"(omit 11).

I happen to know that power chords are major triads with an omitted 3, but are usually just called "5" chords, like, say "C5". Is it truly the case that strictly speaking this should be written "Cmaj (omit 3)"? Or is there another notation convention that I might want to know about?

...it's not that I feel super anal about these things, I just want to understand the notation!

Thanks for your great answers so far!
#7
Yeah Possibly I feel like kidna a noob for not knowing that.....

Perhaps the 5 implies an omit 3 because if you see a regular C the correct triad would just be a C E G thing a bit lost on that one :\
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#8
Quote by Lefty7Stringer
If there is no "add" in the name certain notes (or scale degrees) are implied. for example

In a 9 chord a dominant 7 is implied, whereas in a maj9 chord it is a maj7

in a 13 a dominant 7 and Perfect 11 are implied. to alter the 7 you would write maj13 rather than 13. to alter the 11 you would write 13#11 or 13b11 (if you wrote 13+11 that would not signify an aug 11 but instead an aug 5)


Nice. A very clear explanation, thanks! (of course, experimenting around a bit on http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/index.php after your advice really made it clear for me). Thanks a million!
#9
Quote by axxchor
Sweet. That certainly answers my question. Thanks, guys. Now one further question...

Let's say that I DO wish to (randomly) omit the 11. TheEarthisFlat says that this would then be written something like "nasty chord name"(omit 11).

I happen to know that power chords are major triads with an omitted 3, but are usually just called "5" chords, like, say "C5". Is it truly the case that strictly speaking this should be written "Cmaj (omit 3)"? Or is there another notation convention that I might want to know about?

...it's not that I feel super anal about these things, I just want to understand the notation!

Thanks for your great answers so far!


An power chord is not a "real chord"

It's an interval 1 - 5th, or Diad.

It's call a chord, because the people whoe came up with it, didn't really care probably, but it's just an interval.

A power chord is neither major or minor, cause it has no 3rd.

A 5th has no harmonic value. It doesn't do anything for the harmony, just make the harmony "thicker".

If you would omit a tone from a Major or minor triad it would almost always be the 5th.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Mar 9, 2009,
#10
Quote by Lefty7Stringer
If there is no "add" in the name certain notes (or scale degrees) are implied. for example

In a 9 chord a dominant 7 is implied, whereas in a maj9 chord it is a maj7

in a 13 a dominant 7 and Perfect 11 are implied. to alter the 7 you would write maj13 rather than 13. to alter the 11 you would write 13#11 or 13b11 (if you wrote 13+11 that would not signify an aug 11 but instead an aug 5)


Cmaj7b11? 13b11? Why would you ever call those notes a b11? And how does 13+11 imply an augmented fifth? 13+11 implies an augmented fourth, the same way 13#11 does. If you want to notate a dominant 13th chord as having an augmented fifth, there is no need to write the 11th after the 13th, X13+ or X13#5.

OP, if you chose to omit the 11th, it would be standard procedure to keep the original name (EbΔ+b13); although a more descriptive name might be Ebmaj9+b13.

The confusion here is because of the Δ notation. It does not exclusively mean 'add the 7th', it's used to notate a chord with an interval of a major 7th, whether or not that chord includes or excludes any extensions. EbΔ can mean Ebmaj7, Ebmaj9, Ebmaj11 or Ebmaj13 in standard practice (you'll also, rarely, see it used to notate ANY major chord, or more explicitly, any tonic major chord, in that case it can mean Ebmaj7, Ebmaj9, Ebmaj, Eb6/9, Eb6 et al.)

This is why some people choose to write the extension after the Δ, EbΔ13 for instance - which is what the author of that book didn't do.

To sum up - you can still call the intervals 1 - 3 - #5 - 7 - 9 - b13 EbΔ+b13, or if you want to stipulate the omittance of the 11th, Ebmaj9+b13 or EbΔ9+b13 are your best options.
#11
Quote by xxdarrenxx
An power chord is not a "real chord"

It's an interval 1 - 5th, or Diad.

It's call a chord, because the people whoe came up with it, didn't really care probably, but it's just an interval.

A power chord is neither major or minor, cause it has no 3rd.

A 5th has no harmonic value. It doesn't do anything for the harmony, just make the harmony "thicker".

If you would omit a tone from a Major or minor triad it would almost always be the 5th.


Ha! I guess "power dyad" sounds too much like something you're supposed to farm in World of Warcraft or something.

Alright. I think my knowledge of chords has just, like, tripled thanks to you guys. But I still don't know much, so if I have any more questions I know where to go to find the pros.

\m/