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#1
Let me just start by saying I have absolutely nothing against gay people and this thread is meant solely for scientific discussion.

Anyway, do you believe that it is contradictory for somebody to believe in both the theory of natural selection, in which genes that are useful for reporduction and survival are preferred and genes which are detrimental to the aforementioned are progressively elimited over time, and the genetic basis for homosexuality?

Until today when questioned on either of the two seperately I would have stated my belief in both natural selection and the genetic basis for homosexuality, but now after considering this I am unsure.

I am more biased towards believing in the process of natural selection I would say, and therefore would probably have to attribute homosexuality in future to nurture rather than nature!
I've been here since '04.

#4
Ok wow, so. Homosexuality occurs in every living organism on the planet, not just human beings. Biologist have found that when a population becomes to great for an ecosystem to support, that is there's more animals than food, shelter, water, things like that, that homosexual tendencies increase dramatically, like ten fold. So really homosexuality is Darwinism at it's finest.

*edit*

And unless you're the worlds biggest elitist why would you choose to be gay? Think about all the prejudices that brings with it. So leads us to the conclusion that even if you were "nurtured" which I'm not sure how you took nurtured and got gay out of that but w/e, you wouldn't end up being gay because people as a whole crave social interaction and acceptance, it's been proven, so IMO and the opinion of the larger portion of the scientific community being gay IS a genetic predisposition.
Last edited by silversoulcage at Mar 9, 2009,
#5
i think gay ppls is the worlds way of controling the worlds over population.

EDIT: ^ damn, he beat me to it and said it much smarter
There is a war going on for your mind.

If you are thinking, you are winning.


Resistance is victory.


We are building up a new world.
Do not sit idly by.
Last edited by Fenderhippie69 at Mar 9, 2009,
#6
Quote by silversoulcage
Ok wow, so. Homosexuality occurs in every living organism on the planet, not just human beings. Biologist have found that when a population becomes to great for an ecosystem to support, that is there's more animals than food, shelter, water, things like that, that homosexual tendencies increase dramatically, like ten fold. So really homosexuality is Darwinism at it's finest.



But that is not Darwinism that is an alternative theory. It's also one I have also come across.

The way I heard it is that there could be some sort of gene which is triggered in humans at times of overpopulation.
I've been here since '04.

#8
read this

From the middle of October until next summer the Norwegian Natural History Museum of the University of Oslo will host the first exhibition that focuses on homosexuality in the animal kingdom.

"One fundamental premise in social debates has been that homosexuality is unnatural. This premise is wrong. Homosexuality is both common and highly essential in the lives of a number of species," explains Petter Boeckman, who is the academic advisor for the "Against Nature's Order?" exhibition.

The most well-known homosexual animal is the dwarf chimpanzee, one of humanity's closes relatives. The entire species is bisexual. Sex plays an conspicuous roll in all their activities and takes the focus away from violence, which is the most typical method of solving conflicts among primates and many other animals.

"Sex among dwarf chimpanzees is in fact the business of the whole family, and the cute little ones often lend a helping hand when they engage in oral sex with each other."

Lions are also homosexual. Male lions often band together with their brothers to lead the pride. To ensure loyalty, they strengthen the bonds by often having sex with each other.

Homosexuality is also quite common among dolphins and killer whales. The pairing of males and females is fleeting, while between males, a pair can stay together for years. Homosexual sex between different species is not unusual either. Meetings between different dolphin species can be quite violent, but the tension is often broken by a "sex orgy".

Homosexuality is a social phenomenon and is most widespread among animals with a complex herd life.

Among the apes it is the females that create the continuity within the group. The social network is maintained not only by sharing food and the child rearing, but also by having sex. Among many of the female apes the sex organs swell up. So they rub their abdomens against each other," explains Petter Bockman and points out that animals have sex because they have the desire to, just like we humans.

Homosexual behaviour has been observed in 1,500 animal species.

"We're talking about everything from mammals to crabs and worms. The actual number is of course much higher. Among some animals homosexual behaviour is rare, some having sex with the same gender only a part of their life, while other animals, such as the dwarf chimpanzee, homosexuality is practiced throughout their lives."

Animals that live a completely homosexual life can also be found. This occurs especially among birds that will pair with one partner for life, which is the case with geese and ducks. Four to five percent of the couples are homosexual. Single females will lay eggs in a homosexual pair's nest. It has been observed that the homosexual couple are often better at raising the young than heterosexual couples.

When you see a colony of black-headed gulls, you can be sure that almost every tenth pair is lesbian. The females have no problems with being impregnated, although, according to Petter Boeckman they cannot be defined as bisexual.

"If a female has sex with a male one time, but thousands of times with another female, is she bisexual or homosexual? This is the same way to have children is not unknown among homosexual people."

Indeed, there is a number of animals in which homosexual behaviour has never been observed, such as many insects, passerine birds and small mammals.

"To turn the approach on its head: No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue."

Petter Bockman regrets that there is too little research about homosexuality among animals.

"The theme has long been taboo. The problem is that researchers have not seen for themselves that the phenomenon exists or they have been confused when observing homosexual behaviour or that they are fearful of being ridiculed by their colleagues. Many therefore overlook the abundance of material that is found. Many researchers have described homosexuality as something altogether different from sex. They must realise that animals can have sex with who they will, when they will and without consideration to a researcher's ethical principles."

One example of overlooking behaviour noted by Petter Bockman is a description of mating among giraffes, when nine out of ten pairings occur between males.

"Every male that sniffed a female was reported as sex, while anal intercourse with orgasm between males was only "revolving around" dominance, competition or greetings.

Masturbation is common in the animal kingdom.

"Masturbation is the simplest method of self pleasure. We have a Darwinist mentality that all animals only have sex to procreate. But there are plenty of animals who will masturbate when they have nothing better to do. Masturbation has been observed among primates, deer, killer whales and penguins, and we're talking about both males and females. They rub themselves against stones and roots. Orangutans are especially inventive. They make dildos of wood and bark," says Petter Boeckman of the Norwegian Natural History Museum.
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And that guy, who had that idea, one time


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#9
Quote by silversoulcage
Ok wow, so. Homosexuality occurs in every living organism on the planet, not just human beings. Biologist have found that when a population becomes to great for an ecosystem to support, that is there's more animals than food, shelter, water, things like that, that homosexual tendencies increase dramatically, like ten fold. So really homosexuality is Darwinism at it's finest.

I thought only several species had homosexual tendencies?
#10
Natural selection isn't perfect. It can't remove all genes that can have a detrimental effect on an organism. There are plently people out there with a genetic susceptibility to cancer and all kinds of stuff that natural selection hasn't dealt with yet, and never will now that we're capable of fighting it.
#11
Quote by silversoulcage
Ok wow, so. Homosexuality occurs in every living organism on the planet, not just human beings. Biologist have found that when a population becomes to great for an ecosystem to support, that is there's more animals than food, shelter, water, things like that, that homosexual tendencies increase dramatically, like ten fold. So really homosexuality is Darwinism at it's finest.

*edit*

And unless you're the worlds biggest elitist why would you choose to be gay? Think about all the prejudices that brings with it. So leads us to the conclusion that even if you were "nurtured" which I'm not sure how you took nurtured and got gay out of that but w/e, you wouldn't end up being gay because people as a whole crave social interaction and acceptance, it's been proven, so IMO and the opinion of the larger portion of the scientific community being gay IS a genetic predisposition.


I never said anyone chose to be gay.

Nurture = a persons upbringing, the circumstances of which they have existed in prior to sexual development occuring and completing, traumatic events etc. I suppose it's kind of a Freud-esque view.

& nothing in science is proven. That's the beauty of it!
I've been here since '04.

#12
Dude...I was thinking about just this NO MORE than 60 seconds before I saw your thread. Wat the ****.
#13
Quote by NFFC_1865
I never said anyone chose to be gay.

Nurture = a persons upbringing, the circumstances of which they have existed in prior to sexual development occuring and completing, traumatic events etc. I suppose it's kind of a Freud-esque view.

& nothing in science is proven. That's the beauty of it!


dude. read the massive wall of text I put in.
Supreme Commander Of The Lolcats Of the UG Army

And that guy, who had that idea, one time


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THE SIMIAN σƒ τλε τρπ βπστλεπλσσδ

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#14
Quote by NFFC_1865
But that is not Darwinism that is an alternative theory. It's also one I have also come across.

The way I heard it is that there could be some sort of gene which is triggered in humans at times of overpopulation.



Darwinism is about the survival of a species as a whole. So it makes sense for homosexuality to occur naturally and fit in with Darwinism, it's the greater good of the whole community not the individual.

And homosexuality has been around for thousands of years in human cultures, it's nothing new, so the "triggered" thing it's pretty much correct, but it's not just humans, it's a great deal of species.
#15
Quote by Boogie Man
read this
"Orangutans are especially inventive. They make dildos of wood and bark," says Petter Boeckman of the Norwegian Natural History Museum.


Enlightening
I've been here since '04.

#16
Natural selection doesn't apply to Homo sapiens much anymore because of the way we've separated ourselves from nature. We've set up our societies and cultures and aren't at risk of being killed by other animals and weather like we used to be.
Quote by dudetheman
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#17
Quote by NFFC_1865
I never said anyone chose to be gay.

Nurture = a persons upbringing, the circumstances of which they have existed in prior to sexual development occuring and completing, traumatic events etc. I suppose it's kind of a Freud-esque view.

& nothing in science is proven. That's the beauty of it!



I never said you claimed people chose to be gay, I was simply eliminating the option before it was used.

And lots of things in science are proven, gravity? That's pretty real. There are a great deal of scientific laws, and a great deal of theories as well.

I think you can't mix Freud in with a type of conversation like this, more so with this specific topic, if someone had a very traumatic up bringing I think it would make them crave the social interaction more, it would be like if in the 50's and 60's someone chose to be African American, it wouldn't make sense.
Last edited by silversoulcage at Mar 9, 2009,
#19
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
Natural selection doesn't apply to Homo sapiens much anymore because of the way we've separated ourselves from nature. We've set up our societies and cultures and aren't at risk of being killed by other animals and weather like we used to be.



This is true, but we cannot escape evolution. We may be able to extend life, cure diseases, endure and prosper. Weather, that can still get us, Katrina?

And all our medication does in long run is force bacteria and germs to evolve, and they evolve at a much greater rate than human beings, since they are much less complicated physically than we are.
#20
Originally Posted by NFFC_1865
The genetic basis for homosexuality: Darwinism paradox


everthing is a paradox if you look close enough.
There is a war going on for your mind.

If you are thinking, you are winning.


Resistance is victory.


We are building up a new world.
Do not sit idly by.
#21
Quote by NFFC_1865
Enlightening


that it is, kind of kinky too
Supreme Commander Of The Lolcats Of the UG Army

And that guy, who had that idea, one time


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#22
Quote by crackerpleaz
I thought only several species had homosexual tendencies?



Several, like several hundred thousand.
#23
Quote by silversoulcage
I never said you claimed people chose to be gay, I was simply eliminating the option before it was used.

And lots of things in science are proven, gravity? That's pretty real. There are a great deal of scientific laws, and a great deal of theories as well.

I think you can mix Freud in with a type of conversation like this, more so with this specific topic, if someone had a very traumatic up bringing I think it would make them crave the social interaction more, it would be like if in the 50's and 60's someone chose to be African American, it wouldn't make sense.


But you have to consider the type of trauma.
Sexual abuse at the hands of a female for example, could make them identify sexual contact with females as undesirable. At the same time it could have the opposite effect. When something is sexualised at a young age this is supposedly how a fetish is triggered.

I'm using extremes to get my point across btw, I dont think all gays are the victims of paedophiles & molesters
I've been here since '04.

#24
Quote by silversoulcage
This is true, but we cannot escape evolution. We may be able to extend life, cure diseases, endure and prosper. Weather, that can still get us, Katrina?

And all our medication does in long run is force bacteria and germs to evolve, and they evolve at a much greater rate than human beings, since they are much less complicated physically than we are.


I'm obviously not saying that we're invulnerable to the effects of nature. However, we are undeniably better able to protect ourselves as a species.
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
#25
Quote by Fenderhippie69
everthing is a paradox if you look close enough.

I've been here since '04.

#26
Quote by silversoulcage
Several, like several hundred thousand.


more like, every.
Supreme Commander Of The Lolcats Of the UG Army

And that guy, who had that idea, one time


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#27
Quote by NFFC_1865
Let me just start by saying I have absolutely nothing against gay people and this thread is meant solely for scientific discussion.

Anyway, do you believe that it is contradictory for somebody to believe in both the theory of natural selection, in which genes that are useful for reporduction and survival are preferred and genes which are detrimental to the aforementioned are progressively elimited over time, and the genetic basis for homosexuality?

Until today when questioned on either of the two seperately I would have stated my belief in both natural selection and the genetic basis for homosexuality, but now after considering this I am unsure.

I am more biased towards believing in the process of natural selection I would say, and therefore would probably have to attribute homosexuality in future to nurture rather than nature!


first off, all hail the 04


Second, I think that an emergent genetic mutation or anomalys like homosexuality is scientifically sound...a way to prevent species from overpopulation and genetic redundancy.

Additionally, as a side argument, the "natural" aspect of homosexuality in regards to human genetics and well being is irrelevant. Current technology and past technological achievements trump what would be referred to as "natural" as they distort and control the original state of nature (I am not arguing the morality of this) far more than homosexuality would distort human breeding patterns.

In fact, sex for anything besides procreation would be circumventing instinctual purpose...this is what humans do, we go against the "natural" way of things

So to argue that homosexual is unnatural is both hypocritical and ignorant.
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Last edited by manmanster at Mar 9, 2009,
#28
Quote by NFFC_1865
But you have to consider the type of trauma.
Sexual abuse at the hands of a female for example, could make them identify sexual contact with females as undesirable. At the same time it could have the opposite effect. When something is sexualised at a young age this is supposedly how a fetish is triggered.

I'm using extremes to get my point across btw, I dont think all gays are the victims of paedophiles & molesters



Touche my young padawan haha.

There are far to many what if's though. The human mind is a very complex place.

All I'm saying is that Darwinism and homosexuality both fit into the naturally occurring order of things. But then, the human mind is far to feeble to began to understand the universe, and I know that contradicts what I just said but if you look at it from the perspective of the universe, the human mind is tiny in compared to the vastness. That's why, to be quite honest I don't really buy into religion or science either one because they are both created by the minds of humans beings are we are far to small of a factor in the universe to even began to be able to comprehend and accurately asses, describe, sum up, label or understand the universe, we can try and we can theorize and we can come up with things to make us feel better about our place in the cosmos but in the end, we're all just dust in the wind.
#29
Quote by silversoulcage
Touche my young padawan haha.

There are far to many what if's though. The human mind is a very complex place.

All I'm saying is that Darwinism and homosexuality both fit into the naturally occurring order of things. But then, the human mind is far to feeble to began to understand the universe, and I know that contradicts what I just said but if you look at it from the perspective of the universe, the human mind is tiny in compared to the vastness. That's why, to be quite honest I don't really buy into religion or science either one because they are both created by the minds of humans beings are we are far to small of a factor in the universe to even began to be able to comprehend and accurately asses, describe, sum up, label or understand the universe, we can try and we can theorize and we can come up with things to make us feel better about our place in the cosmos but in the end, we're all just dust in the wind.


I feel so insignificant.
But hey, I've got my music.

Do you believe that humans should simply be content with the limited awareness that has naturally been bestowed upon them or that we should continue with science and at least try to make that voyage into the unknown?

Quote by manmanster
first off, all hail the 04


Second, I think that an emergent genetic mutation or anomalys like homosexuality is scientifically sound...a way to prevent species from overpopulation and genetic redundancy.

Additionally, as a side argument, the "natural" aspect of homosexuality in regards to human genetics and well being is irrelevant. Current technology and past technological achievements trump what would be referred to as "natural" as they distort and control the original state of nature (I am not arguing the morality of this) far more than homosexuality would distort human breeding patterns.

In fact, sex for anything besides procreation would be circumventing instinctual purpose...this is what humans do, we go against the "natural" way of things

So to argue that homosexual is unnatural is both hypocritical and ignorant.


*graciously accepts hailing* Onto the discussion...


Hmmm... would you also go so far as to say that other animals which have sex for social means such as other primate, dolphins etc. have also advanced so far as to be going against nature when partaking in this practice?

If so BogieMan and his wall of text will have something to say
I've been here since '04.

Last edited by NFFC_1865 at Mar 9, 2009,
#30
Quote by NFFC_1865
*graciously accepts hailing* Onto the discussion...


Hmmm... would you also go so far as to say that other animals which have sex for social means such as other primate, dolphins etc. have also advanced so far as to be going against nature when partaking in this practice?

If so BogieMan and his wall of text will have something to say


One of the most well know cases of emergent homosexual behavior in non humans can be found here:

http://www.godhateshomophobes.com/video-homosexual-dolphins.php

And dolphins are considered one of the most intelligent species that exist on Earth. Perhaps there is a direct correlation between a certain evolutionary stage and mutations that increase the chance for genetic diversity?

Great thread btw.
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#31
Quote by manmanster
One of the most well know cases of emergent homosexual behavior in non humans can be found here:

http://www.godhateshomophobes.com/video-homosexual-dolphins.php

And dolphins are considered one of the most intelligent species that exist on Earth. Perhaps there is a direct correlation between a certain evolutionary stage and mutations that increase the chance for genetic diversity?

Great thread btw.


Thanks!


That's a very interesting point you raise there.

I'm inclined to question the same...
I wonder if there has been any prior research done into that and whether any of it can be found online. I'm starting to wonder if I'll get any sleep whatsoever tonight now!
I've been here since '04.

#32
Quote by NFFC_1865
I feel so insignificant.
But hey, I've got my music.

Do you believe that humans should simply be content with the limited awareness that has naturally been bestowed upon them or that we should continue with science and at least try to make that voyage into the unknown?


*graciously accepts hailing* Onto the discussion...


Hmmm... would you also go so far as to say that other animals which have sex for social means such as other primate, dolphins etc. have also advanced so far as to be going against nature when partaking in this practice?

If so BogieMan and his wall of text will have something to say


Oh god yes, science and technology are wonderfully amazing things, I'm just saying at this point in human evolution evening hinting at the though of having a definitive understanding is ignorant. One day maybe we will know everything, maybe not, but over time yes we will get much more intelligent and much more expansive, I hope in my life time I see us transition to a celestial species instead of a terrestrial one. If everyone was always content then there would be no T.V, no internet, no cell phones no cable, that's what makes humans unique is our desire for things, our desire for everything actually.
#33
Quote by NFFC_1865
Thanks!


That's a very interesting point you raise there.

I'm inclined to question the same...
I wonder if there has been any prior research done into that and whether any of it can be found online. I'm starting to wonder if I'll get any sleep whatsoever tonight now!



I think the issue is that homophobic tension is so thick in the world today you could cut it with a knife...so people who would propose to understand why a homosexual is a homsexual both come across as not understanding as religious bigots, and threaten to delegitimatize these people's perfectly natural sexual preference.

And regardless, a person's sexuality is not a be all and end all of their personality and lifestyle, it's an aspect of it. Like a political party, occupation, likes or interests. Its an aspect of a person, not a title hanging over their head.

edit: I meant to say "delegitimize"
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Last edited by manmanster at Mar 10, 2009,
#34
So Humans and Donkeys are the only people who can perceive colour...whats up with that???
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#35
Quote by Boogie Man
read this

READ THIS MANS WALL OF TEXT, IT IS MOST ENLIGHTENING

Very interesting, kinky, but interesting, thanks. Never knew that.
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#36
Quote by NFFC_1865
Let me just start by saying I have absolutely nothing against gay people and this thread is meant solely for scientific discussion.

Anyway, do you believe that it is contradictory for somebody to believe in both the theory of natural selection, in which genes that are useful for reporduction and survival are preferred and genes which are detrimental to the aforementioned are progressively elimited over time, and the genetic basis for homosexuality?

Until today when questioned on either of the two seperately I would have stated my belief in both natural selection and the genetic basis for homosexuality, but now after considering this I am unsure.

I am more biased towards believing in the process of natural selection I would say, and therefore would probably have to attribute homosexuality in future to nurture rather than nature!



homosexuals are not meant to pass on their genes...lol, mother natures bitch slap
Too cool for a signature.
#38
I was reading an article the other day which said that female relatives of male homosexuals are more likely to have children. I don't know how extensively that's been studied, I just thought it was interesting
#39
Quote by evilbeaver22
Very interesting, kinky, but interesting, thanks. Never knew that.


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y so srs?
Quote by vintage x metal
My toilet has seen some scenes that one would describe as 'deathcore'
#40
Quote by manmanster
I think the issue is that homophobic tension is so thick in the world today you could cut it with a knife...so people who would propose to understand why a homosexual is a homsexual both come across as not understanding as religious bigots, and threaten to legitimatize these people's perfectly natural sexual preference.

And regardless, a person's sexuality is not a be all and end all of their personality and lifestyle, it's an aspect of it. Like a political party, occupation, likes or interests. Its an aspect of a person, not a title hanging over their head.


Agreed, unfortunately I don't think homosexuality is ever going to be fully accepted. I have to admit myself that I can feel uncomfortable in the presence of homosexuality at times.

It would be interesting to get the view of a gay person on this subject, so if there happen to be any browsing UG at this time please step forward...

I hope that this thread doesn't die. I've found it quite refreshing amongst the usual stuff we all post on here, despite the efforts of the pancake men!
I've been here since '04.

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