#1
What traids/7th chords go with each scale degree of the marmonic minor scale? for example natural minor is i, ii dim, III, iv, v, VI, VII
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#2
The theory sticky and the crusade articles both cover chord construction.

Why you would construct a progression from it is beyond me, since harmonic minor is a simply the convention that the leading tone in a minor key is raised when it is expected to lead into the tonic. It isn't really a scale in its own right.
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#3
i-iidim-IIIaug-iv-V-VI-viidim

I think? And I've always thought of the harmonic minor, as the minor scale but with a raised 7th. Am I doing it wrong?
#4
Quote by CHOCOmoney
What traids/7th chords go with each scale degree of the marmonic minor scale? for example natural minor is i, ii dim, III, iv, v, VI, VII



here:

http://www.howmusicworks.org/hmw608.asp

* I found this in about 2 seconds by searching in google.

Quote by iiseddie
i-iidim-IIIaug-iv-V-VI-viidim

I think? And I've always thought of the harmonic minor, as the minor scale but with a raised 7th. Am I doing it wrong?


You are correct.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 10, 2009,
#5
thanks GuitarMunkey
And on the seventh day, I said "Go to your room!"


check out my jazz tab and ill gladly do a review of any of your stuff


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#6
Harmonic Minor is used to make the minor dominant triad in a natural minor scale a major triad so you could describe the chords of harmonic minor to be the same as natural minor with a major V such as:
i iidim bIII iv V bVI bVII

But if you really want to treat the harmonic minor scale as a unique and independant scale in it's own right that you build chord progressions from then...
Harmonic minor = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Triads from harmonizing this scale = i iidim bIII+ iv V bVI viidim

Best of luck.
Si
#7
Quote by 20Tigers

Triads from harmonizing this scale = i iidim bIII+ iv V bVI viidim

Best of luck.


I keep seeing these flats before roman numerals in posts. What kind of chord is the flat before the III and VI chord supposed to represent?
#8
it shows what the chord is in relation to a major scale

minor scale will have a b3

any you'll probably want to avoid the bIII+
and just stick with the bIII..
i'm not saying you cant do it but the bIII is used more popular in western music.
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Last edited by victoryaloy at Mar 10, 2009,
#9
Quote by blueriver
I keep seeing these flats before roman numerals in posts. What kind of chord is the flat before the III and VI chord supposed to represent?


It depends on the key. If we're using the C harmonic minor, then bIII would be E flat. E is the third degree of C, but in the Harmonic Minor, the third degree of the scale is flattened.

Hopefully that answered your question.
#10
Yeah but when you are labeling chords in an Aminor progression for example you wouldnt label them that way. You wouldn't even compare them to C major. You would label them
i iio III iv V VI viio. Depending on the chords of course. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
#11
Quote by blueriver
Yeah but when you are labeling chords in an Aminor progression for example you wouldnt label them that way. You wouldn't even compare them to C major. You would label them
i iio III iv V VI viio. Depending on the chords of course. Someone correct me if I am wrong.


The simple answer is "it depends". Some people will label them as you did assuming that the reader has sufficient understanding of the minor scale to construct them properly, and some will notate it compared to the major scale.
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#12
Quote by Archeo Avis
The simple answer is "it depends". Some people will label them as you did assuming that the reader has sufficient understanding of the minor scale to construct them properly, and some will notate it compared to the major scale.


Thanks, I assume the first reason is why my theory teacher teaches it the way she does then.
#13
Quote by blueriver
I keep seeing these flats before roman numerals in posts. What kind of chord is the flat before the III and VI chord supposed to represent?


In the case of bIII, it means that the third chord is a major chord, but it's distance from the tonic is a b3. So if you were the harmonize the harmonic minor scale in A, you'd have a major chord for the third chord, but it's not a major third from the root, thus a C major chord as opposed to C#maj.
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#14
its like bass position symbols..
if you see IV(7) its implied that its a Maj7.. being its diatonic
V(7) its implied as Dom7
you can write IVM7 but you don't need to
kinda like you can write bIII but if the tonic is minor its implied that III root is the b3
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#15
Quote by blueriver
Yeah but when you are labeling chords in an Aminor progression for example you wouldnt label them that way. You wouldn't even compare them to C major. You would label them
i iio III iv V VI viio. Depending on the chords of course. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

If I were to label the chords of an Am progression I usually label them with the b's in front where appropriate. It's just my preference.

My reasoning is that if the root of a chord in the progression is from outside the key then you have options.

For example if your progression was Em C#m B then how would you write that in Roman Numerals? How would you distinguish between that and an Em Cm B?

Or if your progression was Am F# F E how would you write that using roman numerals? Is suppose you could write it as a non functioning secondary dominant such as:
i V/iidim VI V but it somehow seems easier to me to describe it as i VI bVI V.

By describing the minor chords as i iidim bIII iv V bVI bVII then such problems dissappear.

However most people just assume the VII chord in a minor progression is actually bVII or the VI chord is bVI. 99% of the time this is fine. It only causes a problem when they really are a VII or VI chord.

So I try to stick to bIII, bVI, and bVII.

I hope that makes sense.

EDIT: also note in the harmonic minor scale the final chord off the seventh degree is viidim not bviidim. Generally we would assume the key is minor for harmonic minor so how then do we distinguish that the viidim chord is using a major seventh root and not a flat seventh root if we always write VII when describing the chord built off the minor seventh?
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Mar 10, 2009,
#16
Quote by 20Tigers
If I were to label the chords of an Am progression I usually label them with the b's in front where appropriate. It's just my preference.

My reasoning is that if the root of a chord in the progression is from outside the key then you have options.

For example if your progression was Em C#m B then how would you write that in Roman Numerals? How would you distinguish between that and an Em Cm B?

Or if your progression was Am F# F E how would you write that using roman numerals? Is suppose you could write it as a non functioning secondary dominant such as:
i V/iidim VI V but it somehow seems easier to me to describe it as i VI bVI V.

By describing the minor chords as i iidim bIII iv V bVI bVII then such problems dissappear.

However most people just assume the VII chord in a minor progression is actually bVII or the VI chord is bVI. 99% of the time this is fine. It only causes a problem when they really are a VII or VI chord.

So I try to stick to bIII, bVI, and bVII.

I hope that makes sense.


I don't start learning about borrowed chords until next quarter, so my knowledge on how to notate them is pretty small. I would guess that Em C#m B would be i ii/V V or something like that. I see the b's being confusing when reading figured bass, but thats proabably because I was taught without them.
#17
I was self taught and picked up that way though books and stuff and it just made sense to me.

To be honest I don't even know what the term "figured bass" means.

EDIT: I googled it. That shit's just confusing with or without the b's
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Mar 10, 2009,
#18
Quote by 20Tigers
I was self taught and picked up that way though books and stuff and it just made sense to me.

To be honest I don't even know what the term "figured bass" means.

EDIT: I googled it. That shit's just confusing with or without the b's


Lol yeah pretty much.
#19
i iio III+ iv V VI viio

there u go



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#20
Just a quick question regarding the VII of the Harmonic Minor... can it also be an augmented chord? Like, for example, in A minor, can't you have G# - B# - Dx (G# - C - E) (if I even notated that right...) and get the VII+? Or does this not typically happen? I was just wondering cause i'm pretty sure you can and it'll still be in key, but yeah... just wondering.
#21
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Just a quick question regarding the VII of the Harmonic Minor... can it also be an augmented chord? Like, for example, in A minor, can't you have G# - B# - Dx (G# - C - E) (if I even notated that right...) and get the VII+? Or does this not typically happen? I was just wondering cause i'm pretty sure you can and it'll still be in key, but yeah... just wondering.


The seventh chord in a minor key is usually a diminished chord. In A minor for example you have G# dim. This is nice because it allows you to use a fully diminished 7 chord. I like to use this chord leading to the tonic, mostly because I get bored with V-I all the time. I've never heard of using an augmented chord for the vii. G# augmented might work though, I'm gonna play it and see if it sounds good.
#22
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Just a quick question regarding the VII of the Harmonic Minor... can it also be an augmented chord? Like, for example, in A minor, can't you have G# - B# - Dx (G# - C - E) (if I even notated that right...) and get the VII+? Or does this not typically happen? I was just wondering cause i'm pretty sure you can and it'll still be in key, but yeah... just wondering.
Well it would still be sticking to the notes of the harmonic minor scale. You could also have a V+ chord as well with in Am that would be E+ - E G# B# (E G C).

Of course those three augmented chords are just inversions of the same bIII+ chord just using a different bass note to establish a root.

EDIT: probably not technically right to say it's "diatonic" or "in key" since the key would be minor and harmonic minor brings in notes that are "outside of the key". idk
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Mar 11, 2009,
#23
Quote by 20Tigers

EDIT: probably not technically right to say it's "diatonic" or "in key" since the key would be minor and harmonic minor brings in notes that are "outside of the key". idk


idk..
i'm pretty sure that harmonic and melodic minor inflections are considered diatonic.
because they are use to lead to the tonic, to make the key more *stable* (sorry i cant think of the right word right now)
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#24
Quote by victoryaloy
idk..
i'm pretty sure that harmonic and melodic minor inflections are considered diatonic.
because they are use to lead to the tonic, to make the key more *stable* (sorry i cant think of the right word right now)


They aren't, otherwise the major sixth and seventh from those scales would reflect the key signatures.
#25
^ that's what I was thinking, but wasn't sure.

I can see where you're coming from though victoryaloy when one is so used to using the term diatonic to describe something that sticks to the major scale or minor scale then when we are discussing the harmonic minor scale or some other scale it is tempting to use the word as meaning "using only the notes of any given scale".

There should be a word for that.
Si