#1
So the great site craigslist.org had a listing for a person looking for a violin, cello, and guitar instructor for their growing music business in town. I knew of this business and contacted the person.

While we met we talkeda bout what I knew in terms of guitar and music theory and I went over some things I knew fairly well and what level of students I was sure I could teach. Explained my plan for teaching someone and so on and towards the end they said they would get back to me. I knew of another person who was going for the job and I felt I could be a better teacher because he was more of a multi-instrument person but he didn't know much about guitar.

Well about 3-4 days later I get a call saying shes decided to go with this man instead of me... I said okay and told her if things changed to give me a call. This man is 63, I am 20...

Do any of you feel you get neglected for age? Because I kind of felt like I was in this situation. I know alot of music teachers who are more middle age-older but I thought I was acting very professional towards this person and mature. Showed exceptional knowledge but this other guy got the job... FML... oh well sorry I just needed a rant..
#2
Think of it this way, would you feel better about a teacher who was 63, or 20? Especially as a parent?

Yeah, it sucks, but she has to make the decision that would best benefit her business, right?


I'd feel better if my teacher were older than me, to be honest. Biases kinda suck. ;D
#3
my band deals with this biased problem all the time
all of us are under the age of 18 in a city where all the other bands are all older than 20
it's hard to get a show because no one "wants to play with kids"
it f*&king sucks
#4
i wouldnt worry about it. Afterall its teaching skills and personal preference of learning style which the student is after. In this case maybe she wanted a broader knowledge of how to play guitar with other instruments or found it your lessons too advanced if she was just beginning. I'm just throwing bones. Don't worry about this theres plenty of other people around willing to learn. plus ageism does happen but it just shows these people are ignorant.

i just re read your thread and yes it does sound kind of sucky. again, these people are ignorant. maybe do private lessons?
Last edited by spunkeymonkey36 at Mar 13, 2009,
#5
Well to clear it up, she owns the business - shes not learning but she manages the people who teach her clients lessons... but yeah I see what you mean about the old vs young debate.. but at the same time a 63 year old wont have as much in common with someone from 10-16 learning an instrument opposed to a 20 year old.
#6
There is absolutely an age bias. I've have people disregard me on UG because I'm 18.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.


Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
#7
Quote by The_Sophist
There is absolutely an age bias. I've have people disregard me on UG because I'm 18.


lol thats kind of funny considering about 60-70% of people on UG are under that.
#8
Ya, but 60-70% of the people on UG ask questions, not answer them. I spend most my time here answering threads, and occasionally when people find out my age the ignore my answer.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.


Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
#9
Quote by ehlert99
Well to clear it up, she owns the business - shes not learning but she manages the people who teach her clients lessons... but yeah I see what you mean about the old vs young debate.. but at the same time a 63 year old wont have as much in common with someone from 10-16 learning an instrument opposed to a 20 year old.
Yeah, I realized that. I may not have mad that apparent, sorry.


I had enough in common with my teacher to have a great time. I guess younger kids might not be as cool with it though. I was 20 something at the time, though (still am, I guess).
#11
I feel like there is more to it than what is on the surface here.

Comparatively, what are your qualifications versus his?
Comparatively, how much experience do you have, versus him?
What kinds of references did he provide? What kind of references did you provide?

Was she looking for more than just a guitar instructor... someone who would contact parents; someone who would be responsible for locking up the store/studio; someone who would be responsible for hiring other instructors?

There are lots of good possible explanations as to why she hired the other guy. You may never know her reasoning, but it doesn't at all necessarily boil down to ageism.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#12
Your right chris, and I won't know if she hired him because of his ability to play a little of everything or not, or any other reason. In some sense age does help because it lets you experience more, maybe get certifications/degrees and so on that will make you more desirable. But its kind of frustrating because if she was looking for someone to help her run the business more with her being absent - being older doesnt necessarily mean they would be better fit. Especially with this guy starting to wind down in his life - and while it might not apply to him, he can start becoming more forgetful and not as quick as someone a little younger...

If I ever talk to her again I will ask what set that person apart from me, if for anything , to help me improve myself to look appealing to other businesses or to go about lessons on my own.
#13
Quote by Vykk Draygo
Think of it this way, would you feel better about a teacher who was 63, or 20? Especially as a parent?
I don't understand, why would a parent care how old their kids teachers are?

Quote by FP
Count yourself lucky that at least you look 20. I don't.
Lulz
Grow a small beard, my friend, just so you look a bit rugged. You'll look 5 years older and you'll be more attractive.

To T/S
Lets look at the fact here. This 63 year old has probably had at least 20 years of musical experience (most likely 50), you've barely been alive for 20 years. He can teach more than just guitar, you've specialised at guitar. He's probably done a year or two at a conservatory in his 63 years of life, I'd be very suprised if you've been at a conservatory (if you have; kudos ). Something tells me you're self taught (sorry man), something tells me this 63 year old is a four eyed egghead from a rich family whos had lessons. He probably rocked up in his expensive suit and his pension payed porshe, you probably turned up in your dads suit in your volvo.

Now, if it turns out the 63 year old has only been around music for a year or two, you'd have grounds to complain.
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#14
He still has reason to complain, someones ability to teach should only have to do with thier skill. I know people that have been playing twice as long as me who aren't half as good.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.


Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
#15
Quote by The_Sophist
He still has reason to complain, someones ability to teach should only have to do with thier skill. I know people that have been playing twice as long as me who aren't half as good.


I agree and disagree with this.

Is there an age bias in these kind of situations? Of course. Should there be? Yes and no.

You may know guitar playing VERY well, but as a young guy you don't have the life and teaching experience that an older person has...and like it or not, that counts for a lot. Like any job, you have to start at the bottom. That means taking less experienced students at first. Do some freelance teaching. Get experience instructing a range of many many of these kind of students, and in a few years you will have a good argument as to why YOU should have that job and not the other guy.

Why do you think Intel doesn't hire 20 year old CEOs?

It may not seem fair, but unless you just completely trounce this older guy in your knowledge of guitar, this is just how the world works. Now go out there and take on some students. Show people you can teach with the best of them.
#16
Quote by The_Sophist
He still has reason to complain, someones ability to teach should only have to do with thier skill. I know people that have been playing twice as long as me who aren't half as good.

playing ability doesn't equate to teaching ability, simple as that.

TS, you have no idea why the other guy was hired - can you read music for example? either way yor best course of action is the one you've already worked out for yourself - simply talk to the employer and ask for feedback as to where you fell short so you can improve for next time.
Actually called Mark!

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...it's a seagull

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Last edited by steven seagull at Mar 14, 2009,
#17
Ehlert, its mostly about teaching experience. And being a business, they would have been thinking more along the lines of:

"We can fill this guy up with various types of lessons... more cash for him and definitely more cash for us!"

So in hindsight, you gave it a shot which is more than others in yr situation would do. You had the balls to present yourself in a professional way... and its always up to the employer who they would take. But don't let it get you down, let it fuel you for the next opportunity.

Age does usually play a big part in it. Most employers (in music) think along the lines of: "He's young, a little good looking... if we had young teen girls coming for lessons would he make a move on them.? Would they make a move on him? Whether he's involved or not, I wouldn't be able to take that chance. What if a student says something? I have an older candidate... less chance of something happening (note that i did say less chance, not zero chance)."

Thought i'd shed some light for ya... I know its not fair, and the young need to make a living too. But don't give up. Try and try again. Maybe there's another school thats run by a woman... turn on the charm of a sweet boy, make her eyes and heart flutter and get the job. No harm in it, you get paid, she gets perv value. All good in the end. But something out there is waiting for you.
#18
The good news is that, while ageism most certainly does exist, you will soon be of an age where it will work in your favour about 85% of the time. At the age of 63, ageism is many more times likely to work against you. I've seen it.... more than once.

As a person who is not only a musician, but also a teacher (in a public school), I can tell you that in most cases, both of those professions - especially music - favour the young. Mind you, in teaching, young is still from roughly 23-30-ish. People love new, young teachers - both other teachers and parents. They bring new ideas, enthusiasm, and a committed and idealistic energy to the table. (and to a kid, there's really not that much difference between a 25 year old and a 50-year old anyways....).

That said, I had the luxury a couple of times of being on 'the other side of the interview table' and interviewing candidates for a grade three position at a school I taught at. Each one of the candidates were excellent in their own right. One guy that I remember in particular was young, entusiastic, and seemed like he would bring a lot of energy to the classroom. Considering the other factors - those things that none of the candidates could possibly know, and even if they did, they couldn't ever control for - we chose another candidate over him. We knew the kids personally that he would have in his class the next year. As a personality, he just wasn't the right person. There were kids who were going to be in that room who really *needed* a gentle, calm personality. The candidate that got the job was someone who you would have loved to have as your grandmother.

Once you get to the stage where they know about who you are (and arguably, yes, including your age) and your qualifications, experience, background, etc., it comes down to being the right person for that particular job.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#20
Quote by axxchor
I agree and disagree with this.

Is there an age bias in these kind of situations? Of course. Should there be? Yes and no.

You may know guitar playing VERY well, but as a young guy you don't have the life and teaching experience that an older person has...and like it or not, that counts for a lot. Like any job, you have to start at the bottom. That means taking less experienced students at first. Do some freelance teaching. Get experience instructing a range of many many of these kind of students, and in a few years you will have a good argument as to why YOU should have that job and not the other guy.

Why do you think Intel doesn't hire 20 year old CEOs?

It may not seem fair, but unless you just completely trounce this older guy in your knowledge of guitar, this is just how the world works. Now go out there and take on some students. Show people you can teach with the best of them.



Your arguing my point, your just giving reason as to why they have these skills. If someone had teaching experience, playing experience and all that, then thier age shouldn't matter. I'm as much of a hardcore empiricist as the next guy, I just believe that it is possible, although rare, that a young musician would make as good a teacher, and occasionaly better, than an older musician.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.


Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.