#1
So, ive always loved amps, theyve always been primarily more important to my tone then a bass to an extent of course. But lately my choices in sound have been changing. And just wanted to know what you think. Its mainly in cabs.
10's or smaller baby. While building my 1x15 cab, i have been playing through 4 small computer speakers. I have also been listening to bits of indie and punk. But what i found was that, those small speakers were able to produce my low notes perfectly but different to my normal preference of 15's. I found that that they were so much more growly, than 15's. Now ive played 12'sthe best of both for some people, but for me they went from one range, to another range and nothing more. 15's were low but produced enough high end for my liking. And now these smaller speakers have been doing it for me, producing lower notes with more punch, and very much growly. Which i like.

So i was basically wondering do you think this is just a fase for me, or do you think as this has being what ive been wanting maybe i should invest in a 8x10 in the future when i have money. I have no problems with 8x10's, and hopefully will be running a trace threw one. I think this would be a bigger step for me, giving me more of what ive been looking for, any one else have revalations like this, which you have followed.

also i found that i was able to push 10's and these comuter speakers harder, and produce sounds i just.. liked, is the only i can put it.

Any ideas folks.

Sam H
Yamaha TRB1006
Fender MIA jazz bass
Hora Hybrid double bass
Hartke lh 500
Ev 606L
Epiphone les paul
Last edited by fatgoogle at Mar 16, 2009,
#2
What no one has anything to add.
Yamaha TRB1006
Fender MIA jazz bass
Hora Hybrid double bass
Hartke lh 500
Ev 606L
Epiphone les paul
#3
It might be a phase, but it might be you just realizing you liked something you weren't aware you did. It's happened to me a few times. I'd shoot for a 4x or 6x10 as opposed to an 8x10, you'd have more flexibility should your tastes change again.

Also something to look into is Phil Jones amps. He uses small speakers exclusively and might be what you're looking for.
Millie, my Peavey Grind Fiver
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Sansamp Bass Driver DI
Modded Ernie Ball VP Jr.
Monster Bass Cable, 21'

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#4
Phil jones is mighty expensive though, but thanks. I suppose its just back to messing around with stuff.
Yamaha TRB1006
Fender MIA jazz bass
Hora Hybrid double bass
Hartke lh 500
Ev 606L
Epiphone les paul
#5
I knackered a pair of PC speakers playing through them - watch what you're doing man.
#6
I don't know how to put this... do you play in a band? I really don't think that you'd like that small-speaker bass tone in a loud band. It just won't work.
Quote by Cody_Grey102
I was looking at a used Warwick Vampyre LTD 5'er for about $200. I went home to grab my wallet and came back and some jerk with an epic beard got it already..
#7
^ indeed. Not only that, but the style of your band as well. Some smooth jazz and 200 watts will probably cut it, but if you play some heavy stuff in drop D and whatever, you'll need 400 watts and above.

Plus, you will need to be heard and to cut through. You'll need punch and definition. A half-stack is a must. 1x15 for volume and depth, 2x10 for definition. So far, I have been lucky to lay my hands on a MarkBass TA503 500 watt amp (modded), and 2 of their cabs 1x10 and 1x15. On stage, I seldom push this setup past 40% (oh, and at times I use a custom made tube preamp to even out the tone), cause the disbalance of sound would be tremendous, and we won't be able to hear the monitors. Plus, I have never played a venue that had a less than 3,5 kW P.A. system... And when drums are rumbling, and everything goes wild the sound dissipates.

So I can't even imagine how a 6x something cab, or computer speakers will help create decent tone.
#8

the world is ending, they agree!!

but if you like 10"s, you like 10"s. everyone can dig 10"s at least a little. they are great.
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#9
Yeah, Jeff Berlin plays with 100W or 300W or something goofy like that - I guess it can work for certain situations.

But I tell you, on my gig last Friday, we didn't have any PA support for the instruments, so I used my SM-900/Mesa 212 halfstack, pushing probably 500-600W. It was loud enough for my purposes, but I couldn't imagine having any less power. I don't know how people play with less. You kinda maybe might be able to hear yourself kinda when standing beside your amp, but how the hell is the audience going to hear you?
Quote by Cody_Grey102
I was looking at a used Warwick Vampyre LTD 5'er for about $200. I went home to grab my wallet and came back and some jerk with an epic beard got it already..
#10
Quote by thefitz
Yeah, Jeff Berlin plays with 100W or 300W or something goofy like that - I guess it can work for certain situations.

But I tell you, on my gig last Friday, we didn't have any PA support for the instruments, so I used my SM-900/Mesa 212 halfstack, pushing probably 500-600W. It was loud enough for my purposes, but I couldn't imagine having any less power. I don't know how people play with less. You kinda maybe might be able to hear yourself kinda when standing beside your amp, but how the hell is the audience going to hear you?


I agree with you. In my town there usually WON'T be PA support for instruments. I have a 400 watt Carvin and 100 Watt Ampeg sub. We were playing for like 50 people and I couldn't picture playing with only one of them.
#11
^ yeah. I only wonder, how do people set the sound up without P.A's? It'd be a friggin pain. We spend good 40 minutes with the venue's tech to get the delay, limiters and compressors pumpin just right, and only then do we do the clean check of the amps (90% of the time they are venue's, so it takes less time), and only then - the monitors. If the P.A system is above 15 kW, it would take even more time and effort to set up right. When we practice (i dunno about US, Russia has tons of rooms that are set up just for that, with amps, pa, and drum kits included) and we pretty much use the amps power the sound is totally whack, no matter how good the amps.
#12
This is the only gig I've done that had no PA support like that - only the voice and kick were mic'd. The room was so small that people would have died if there was a huge PA, and the front row WAS plugging their ears and cowering (fucking pussies) by our amps alone, but that's because the guitar player had a 150W 212/115 halfstack and I had the prescribed ~4x the wattage.

In most of the gigs I play, there are several bands on a bill. The first band soundchecks the venue, with the soundman getting a generic feel for the sound he wants. When the other bands come on, he just slightly changes the settings, if at all. I hate that though - 95% of the time I have to plug the bass into a DI and the DI into the input of my amp, so I have a tubby, flat EQ tone I don't want. If you're opening for a headliner, you can make the argument that the soundman practices on the opening bands so he gets the headliners sounding right.

Venues typically provide a backline of amps and drums (less cymbals, kick pedal and snare), with some bands (like us) bringing their own amps. Sometimes, though, for a 30 minute set, it's not worth it. There's nothing more irritating than watching a metal band have their 2 Schechter playing guitarists plug into their Mesa halfstacks while their unskilled bassist plugs their $200 bass into a far underpowered rig... for a 30 minute set.

So, basically, I'm saying this: I liked the fact that we could control our own sound onstage and weren't at the mercy of a lazy soundman, but I can't imagine any less power than what we had for what was essentially a basement-sized room. For... real venues, huge PA support is integral, and that's all there is to it.

I just remembered, years ago on UG, some moron talking about how his 30W Orange combo (112 I believe, might have even been a 15W) could be heard over a guitar and drums.
Quote by Cody_Grey102
I was looking at a used Warwick Vampyre LTD 5'er for about $200. I went home to grab my wallet and came back and some jerk with an epic beard got it already..
Last edited by thefitz at Mar 18, 2009,
#13
Hah)))))

I have a link just for that. This was shot a while back in a small ass beer pub with SHOODDDDDDDYYYYY ass equipment. I had like a hartke kickback 12 amp (120 watts, is it?) which was P.A'd into the shoddiest of systems. Maybe like 500 watts, tops. So all you can hear is clacking. Not only that, but a huge screwup on the vocals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4JuwmoY444&feature=related


and as a little contrast. Like a 2005(4?) video that actually had decent tone. You can hear the difference, as the "clickety" was replaced by depth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKMDNnNBvRE&feature=related I look like an idiot there))))

Sucks we got only few vids on youtube. Check the studio video of a previous album, ha)
#14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VpXjzKuLrs&feature=related AHAHAHA) I found this! This is n actual feature for one of our TV channels)))) You can hear your boy say a little somethin-somethin, ahah) Jeez, this is some good fun)

Yeah, i just remembered that on this video there's a great PA, but bass is D.I.'d into a POS Ampeg combo. You can hear how flat the sound is.
Last edited by Bassilo at Mar 18, 2009,
#15
Sorry for not getting back, im not exactly gigging at the mo, but am getting stuff toghether, as the people who i play with, were intending to do some gigs over the summer.

I never really intended to go smaller then 10's. And im not sure were power came into question, im using my ashdown mag 600R at the mo. But yet im looking for punch and growl, with 15's cant give me anymore.

Ive been looking at 10's the new Ashdown mag 4x10 actually seems to be what im looking for, sort oflike a small ampeg 8x10; 60hz low, lol.

Any more inoput.
Yamaha TRB1006
Fender MIA jazz bass
Hora Hybrid double bass
Hartke lh 500
Ev 606L
Epiphone les paul
#16
Quote by thefitz
For... real venues, huge PA support is integral, and that's all there is to it.

Not if you're Johnny April!
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Last edited by Mutant Corn at Mar 19, 2009,
#17
Quote by fatgoogle

I never really intended to go smaller then 10's. And im not sure were power came into question, im using my ashdown mag 600R at the mo. But yet im looking for punch and growl, with 15's cant give me anymore.

Ive been looking at 10's the new Ashdown mag 4x10 actually seems to be what im looking for, sort oflike a small ampeg 8x10; 60hz low, lol.

Any more inoput.


Back to those small Phil Jones speakers for a moment, the below is Ed Friedland on a P-5 through one such rig, to give you a taste of what the tiny 8" speakers soundlike. I hate the cliche, but its a case of "I saw this and thought of you..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAveBLuzuPI&feature=channel_page
Attendez la creme!
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#18
Mutant- Ive seen and felt johnny play twice now, i love staind, but hes only using thew 18's now, and they just rumble through you. And i love his playing, fits the role perfectly. Spector legend bass's for a pro thpugh, weird.


But theres also the look i suppose, 5's would be lovely to have, especially if i do get into double bass(first lesson this Friday) and play some coffee shop bits and bobs. But on stage with theband, mostly heavier rock and similiar, i dont think it will work, but the next 250 euro i get is going on a 4x10.
Yamaha TRB1006
Fender MIA jazz bass
Hora Hybrid double bass
Hartke lh 500
Ev 606L
Epiphone les paul
#19
Ahhh Johnny April. The guy who wants to run his bass straight into a power amp. The guy who hates bass amp preamps. The guy who'd rather just control the bass and treble control on his on-board pream... what the hell?

He talks about how terrible bass preamps are for tone, but totally glosses over a stripped down preamp running off a 9V battery.

But that is an impressive rig - not too many 16x8x2x15x2x18s out there!
Quote by Cody_Grey102
I was looking at a used Warwick Vampyre LTD 5'er for about $200. I went home to grab my wallet and came back and some jerk with an epic beard got it already..
#20
I might be getting the wrong end of the stick here..but are you wondering about going smaller than 10" at all? On Monday I got delivery of two Eminence Beta 8" speakers, to go with my Eminence 15" speaker (you might remember in another thread of yours I was wanting some input into making a cab myself, well i've started, anway). I found myself enjoying the two 8" by themself, although uncabbed at the moment so it's pretty pointless. I wired up the 15" and the two 8"s through my Hartke and played a frequency sweep and the 8" handled from around 70/80 hz (roughly) very well, i was surprised, so I just tried the two 8" and...i really enjoyed the tone. There was a lack of very low end, but a nice midrange feel to them. Now i don't gig and this is just a personal experiment as I got the 8"s second hand on eBay, but I doubt you could gig with them at all.

If you're looking for a cheap idea for a good tone in your house, for £60 (including 2 speakers, wood and hardware) it makes a really nice home set up. And as the 8" have a wide frequency range, drop in a tweeter and it makes a good bedroom sound system. If you are giggling, scrap everything i've typed lol.

Edit : these are the second cheapest Eminence 8" speakers and I liked them, so the upgraded ones may be even better.
Last edited by Micehorns at Mar 20, 2009,
#21
Why not get an SWR Henry the 8x8? I think Traynor makes an 8x8 cab as well.
Quote by Cody_Grey102
I was looking at a used Warwick Vampyre LTD 5'er for about $200. I went home to grab my wallet and came back and some jerk with an epic beard got it already..
#22
Bro, kudos for starting your own cab assembly!

This means that you can create just about anything you'd like tonewise!

What are your box proportions? There are several formulas that will allow you to calculate internal volume, so that the box's frequency response and various sound/resonance curves would be to your presice liking. But think before you cut!. Your box can be deep and narrow, or wide and shallow, ported, screened, inverted, the possibilities are endless!

If i were going to build a sharp-sounding cab, i'd opt for a half stack with 4 or 2 8", and a 15". You gotta have a fifteen, a good one, with a well-tuned cab that wont friggin drive like crazy at 180-200 Hz. Build an MDF box, put some automotive vibra-proofing inside, and don't make it too deep. I'd tune it at about 70-80 Hz, for that sweet upper low end, so that the 8" would perform "in their own realm".
#23
Hi Sam, how's the finger? Hows the 15 build?

Going right back to the beginning little speakers can handle bass, just not much of it. My 5" hi-fi speakers can easily reproduce clean bass way below bottom E and your computer speakers may well be perfectly capable of doing the same. Being smaller and lighter they may well be much more accurate as they will stop and start more quickly. The only problem is that they are not loud enough for stage use. The best way to get this sound on stage is to use direct injection into a PA. If you like the 'hi-fi' sound then that is a great guide to what to build to go with your 15.

Your chance to mock me. I've said several times that no-one needs more than 100W on stage if they have decent speakers. I've just bought a mag 600. Ah well I can always keep it turned down!

Bassilo if you want the box dimensions they are all on another thread by Fatgoogle "lets say I want to build a cabinet."
#24
Cool, phil, im also digging my mag 600R, this stupid speaker still hasnt bloody arrived and im getting really impoatient at the mo, anmd lots of emailing. Im going to see, Ill hopefully have a job soon, so might have a little bit of money to waste on experimentation.
But if i were to build a cab to go with this 15, it would most likely have punchy 10's.
Yamaha TRB1006
Fender MIA jazz bass
Hora Hybrid double bass
Hartke lh 500
Ev 606L
Epiphone les paul
#25
I wasn't getting the tone I wanted from the 15 so I added in a PA speaker (Beyma 212 + horn) and now I'm really pleased with the tone. I think any two speakers with different characteristics just tend to work together well. I think the peaks and troughs of the frequency responses tend to cancel each other out.

I intend fiddling quite a lot with secondary cabs to try with the 15. it will bew interesting to see what works.
#26
i love 8x10 cabs
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#27
Isnt their a p[rob;lem though with mixing speakers and cabs, phasing, i always thought it would be a problem, and i would be worried. I might have to cancel my order on the speaker and find somewere else to buy it, or scrap the idea for a little while and get a ready made cab.

I think i would like to go with 10's or 8's maybes. Maybe just ahorn box would be nice.
Yamaha TRB1006
Fender MIA jazz bass
Hora Hybrid double bass
Hartke lh 500
Ev 606L
Epiphone les paul
#28
There isn't a problem with mixing speakers in this way. Just a thought, if you want to use a 15 and a 2x10 and you think tjhe two by ten might be more like the sort of thing you are after then why not build the 2x10 first and then add the 15 instead of doing it the other way round.
#29
WEll, ive already construsted the 1 x15, and am just waiting on a speaker. But i have to have a serious think. I have alot of expensises at the mo.
Yamaha TRB1006
Fender MIA jazz bass
Hora Hybrid double bass
Hartke lh 500
Ev 606L
Epiphone les paul
#30
I quite like the look of the beta 8. It has a decent magnet for a small speaker and a smooth frequency response. It has a low sensitivity for a bass speaker but you will get a boost by using four of them in series/parallel and four would go nicely in a 65 litre reflex cabinet tuned to 65Hz.

with a 100dB per watt sensitivity (for a 4x8) and 900W power handling it ought to be enough for anyone though you would have traded ultimate low bass for a good clean sound.

I can't agree with those who want mega-powered amps. Maybe I am still thinking as a sound engineer but isn't it the primary job of the bass player to work with the drummer first. Unless the drummer is miked you only "need" 100W 'ish to match them and if the drummer is miked then you should be using the PA to get a mix. Even at this level you are starting to swamp the vocal mic's. It's great to have extra power for a clean sound on the peaks and to let you use your tone controls to the full and an octaver will need some overhead but no-one needs more than 100-200W and far too many musicians go for too much onstage sound to the detriment of their hearing and their sound.

No-one wins the volume wars.
#31
Thanks very much phil, ill look into them.
Yamaha TRB1006
Fender MIA jazz bass
Hora Hybrid double bass
Hartke lh 500
Ev 606L
Epiphone les paul
#32
Quote by Phil Starr
No-one wins the volume wars.

Too true. That is, when everyone has comparable amps. I always lost because I had a 1x15 100w bass amp vs. two 4x12 120w guitar amps.

Most of the gigs I've played, the venue had no PA and one of the bands playing provided one. Thus, it was small and simple to hook up. This is why bass needs a lot of clean power. 90% of the monitors I've used either as an audio engineer or a bass player could not properly handle a bass.

I run sound as simply as I can. If the bass player has a huge rig that doesn't need to go in the PA, then I don't put him there. The best setup I have ever heard consisted of the guitar amp turned up to the level that the guitarist wanted, which was the level that the tubes really opened up, with some PA support in the house and the bass not even in the house or the monitors, but running straight with his 1x15 and 2x10 Trace Elliot. Never heard anything to beat it. Simple and awesome.

As far as staying on topic, you'll either need a lot of small speakers, or at least a 15 with something else for gigging.
Millie, my Peavey Grind Fiver
Peavey BAM 210 350w combo amp
Sansamp Bass Driver DI
Modded Ernie Ball VP Jr.
Monster Bass Cable, 21'

Quote by NakedBassist
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