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#1
I'm playing with my school's choir for their uil performance and i need to know how to read this time signature.. the song switches from 6/8 to 6/8+2/4 and i just don't know what to do.
#3
Quote by metalxshredder
I'm playing with my school's choir for their uil performance and i need to know how to read this time signature.. the song switches from 6/8 to 6/8+2/4 and i just don't know what to do.


You didnt give a lot of details, so Im assuming your talking about alternating 6/8 and 2/4. The more specific you are, the more help we can provide

Assuming the 8th note is constant, just sub divide the 8th note.

Every time I see a section of alternating 6/8 2/4, I count like so

1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 1 2

When playing in x/8 you should always be subdividing at LEAST the 8th note. A make a point to subdivide 16th notes whenever I can
#4
its the same thing, 6/8 is in triplets so its 1 triplet 2 triplet and 2/4 is one and two and
Quote by LaGrange
Shouldnt have said the unspoken words of MG in the pit. Now look at what ya dun.


Quote by Mecler
A guitar made of wood?
That's such a ****ing brilliant idea!
#5
Quote by punkmetalA7X91
its the same thing, 6/8 is in triplets so its 1 triplet 2 triplet and 2/4 is one and two and


No, you are incorrect

6/8 is not 2/4 in triplets at all
#6
Quote by tubatom868686
No, you are incorrect

6/8 is not 2/4 in triplets at all



uh yeah it is we are played a piece in my schools concert band that was in 6/8 time and it was subdivided in triplets, and the new piece is is 12/8 which is like a 4/4 bar in triplets so yeah it is basically the same thing
Quote by LaGrange
Shouldnt have said the unspoken words of MG in the pit. Now look at what ya dun.


Quote by Mecler
A guitar made of wood?
That's such a ****ing brilliant idea!
#7
What you can do is to think of the 2/4 as a 4/8. That way you can just count the beat on the eight notes like this: 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 4
Or if you want to keep it as it is (2/4) just count like this: 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 & 2 &
#8
Quote by punkmetalA7X91
uh yeah it is we are played a piece in my schools concert band that was in 6/8 time and it was subdivided in triplets, and the new piece is is 12/8 which is like a 4/4 bar in triplets so yeah it is basically the same thing


No its not...Ive done plenty of orchestra and brass choir gigs to know about mixed meter songs. They are NOT the same. And until you know what your talking about, dont give wrong info to the TS

If you truly dont know why they are different, then I can explain to you
#9
Quote by tubatom868686
No, you are incorrect

6/8 is not 2/4 in triplets at all


Urrrm, no you are incorrect.

If you have a bar of 6/8 with just the six quaver notes, it sounds exactly the same as a bar of 2/4 with 6 tripleted quaver notes.

Anyway, on topic, Id ask for some non-bollocks music that didnt have awkward time signature changes.

Ok that wasnt really on topic...
Quote by Robbie n strat
In the changing rooms we'd all jump around so our dicks and balls bounced all over the place, which we found hilarious.



Little children should be felt, not heard.
#10
If its the school choir you've probably got a conductor - watch them. Thats what they are their for.
#11
Quote by notoriousnumber
Urrrm, no you are incorrect.

If you have a bar of 6/8 with just the six quaver notes, it sounds exactly the same as a bar of 2/4 with 6 tripleted quaver notes.

Anyway, on topic, Id ask for some non-bollocks music that didnt have awkward time signature changes.

Ok that wasnt really on topic...




You have a complete misunderstanding of time signatures and apparently an ignorant and arrogant view of music. Im trying to think of a good way to explain this to you. Hold on

Okay, maybe this will help you understand.

The 6/8 is NOT divided into triplets. Thats where the flaw in your logic. Its divided into 8th notes. It is not a triplet, it is a duple. It may feel like 2 triplets, but it is not
Last edited by tubatom868686 at Mar 28, 2009,
#12
Quote by tubatom868686
No its not...Ive done plenty of orchestra and brass choir gigs to know about mixed meter songs. They are NOT the same. And until you know what your talking about, dont give wrong info to the TS

If you truly dont know why they are different, then I can explain to you


okay first of all go talk to my director if you want to argue, 6/8 was just 1+2+3+ it wouldn't be used, it would be written as 3/4, go look up the songs we played, its eiger annd apollo myth and legend, eiger has a 6/8 section it was triplets it was counted either 1 2 or 1 triplet 2 triplet, in apollo myth an legend its 12/8 so thats counted 1 2 3 4 or 1 triplet 2 triplet 3 triplet 4 triplet, 6/8 is conducted in the same way as 2/4, and 12/8 is conducted in the same way as 4/4, if you want to argue go talk to my band director, his name is rian swearingen, he'll tell ya exactly what i said, so your the one who is wrong here.
Quote by LaGrange
Shouldnt have said the unspoken words of MG in the pit. Now look at what ya dun.


Quote by Mecler
A guitar made of wood?
That's such a ****ing brilliant idea!
#13
Quote by punkmetalA7X91
okay first of all go talk to my director if you want to argue, 6/8 was just 1+2+3+ it wouldn't be used, it would be written as 3/4, go look up the songs we played, its eiger annd apollo myth and legend, eiger has a 6/8 section it was triplets it was counted either 1 2 or 1 triplet 2 triplet, in apollo myth an legend its 12/8 so thats counted 1 2 3 4 or 1 triplet 2 triplet 3 triplet 4 triplet, 6/8 is conducted in the same way as 2/4, and 12/8 is conducted in the same way as 4/4, if you want to argue go talk to my band director, his name is rian swearingen, he'll tell ya exactly what i said, so your the one who is wrong here.


Either you misunderstood your band director or your band director should not be teaching. Whats his email
#14
Quote by notoriousnumber
Urrrm, no you are incorrect.

If you have a bar of 6/8 with just the six quaver notes, it sounds exactly the same as a bar of 2/4 with 6 tripleted quaver notes.

Anyway, on topic, Id ask for some non-bollocks music that didnt have awkward time signature changes.

Ok that wasnt really on topic...


A triplet is three notes played in the space of two, which doesn't occur in 6/8.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#15
Quote by tubatom868686
Either you misunderstood your band director or your band director should not be teaching. Whats his email


no it comes out as triplets and thats the way we were told to think of it, okay? its a way of interpreting it, the way it is conducted is the same as two four, so its 3 eighth notes per beat which makes it a triplet, it may not be written as a triplet but thats the way it comes out
Quote by LaGrange
Shouldnt have said the unspoken words of MG in the pit. Now look at what ya dun.


Quote by Mecler
A guitar made of wood?
That's such a ****ing brilliant idea!
#16
Quote by punkmetalA7X91
no it comes out as triplets and thats the way we were told to think of it, okay? its a way of interpreting it, the way it is conducted is the same as two four, so its 3 eighth notes per beat which makes it a triplet, it may not be written as a triplet but thats the way it comes out


No. A triplet is not three notes per beat, it is three notes in the space of two. 6/8 has nothing to do with triplets.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#17
Quote by punkmetalA7X91
no it comes out as triplets and thats the way we were told to think of it, okay? its a way of interpreting it, the way it is conducted is the same as two four, so its 3 eighth notes per beat which makes it a triplet, it may not be written as a triplet but thats the way it comes out


It is an incorrect way of interpreting it which has led to your misunderstand of mixed meter music, and subsequently, your attempt to sabotage someone elses.

Three 8th notes do not make a triplet. A triplet makes up a triplet. It is that simple
#19
It could also be written in 5/4 which is more typical.

TA - ka - ta - TA - ka - ta - TA - ka - TA - ka ....


It is quite normal and rather harmless for a director to introduce / equate compound time with the triplet because it's a sound the students are probably already familiar with. This shouldn't be such a big deal. He's talking about the sound "1 - 2 - 3" when he says "triplet" because many people first experience that sound within simple time as the 3:2 group that is called "triplet" in english and it is an easy connection to make.
#20
They're both duple times so they should be easy for you to count out.
1 2 3 1 2 3 1 and 2 and... is how I would count them out.
Obviously depends on the how the change is arranged but if its 6/8 then 2/4 it can be counted out like that.
Rather nice beat actually
#21
There is so much wrong information in this thread (punkmetal and notoriousnumber) that it's making my head spin.

2/4 is NOT 6/8 in triplets, as tubatom and Archeo tried to point out. If you're in 6/8, it's implying that you have two groupings of 3 eighth notes in the measure; the level of the beat that you're going to feel is the dotted quarter note. This has nothing to do with triplets, and anybody suggesting such is entirely incorrect.

The way that tubatom gave above in terms of feeling the eighth notes in the alternating time signatures would work well.
#22
Quote by Nick_
It could also be written in 5/4 which is more typical.

TA - ka - ta - TA - ka - ta - TA - ka - TA - ka ....


It is quite normal and rather harmless for a director to introduce / equate compound time with the triplet because it's a sound the students are probably already familiar with. This shouldn't be such a big deal. He's talking about the sound "1 - 2 - 3" when he says "triplet" because many people first experience that sound within simple time as the 3:2 group that is called "triplet" in english and it is an easy connection to make.


...?

5/4 isnt exactly rare, but it has nothing to do with what we are talking about. If you were trying to put something that was in alternating 6/8 and 2/4 into 5/4, the grouping of the notes would be off. Youd be counting
1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2, which puts the accents in the wrong places.

The only substitute for the feel of alternating 6/8 and 2/4 Ive ever seen is 10/8. It has the same grouping of notes, and is faster to write in (dont have to keep switching time signatures every measure). But that was in a musical, and we all know how ridiculous time and key signatures in musicals get

Long story short, 6/8 is not 2/4 in triplets, and anyone telling you anything is wrong and needs to stop posting in this thread

EDIT

But it is nice to see your teaching is introducing you to multiple tonguing (the tah kah tah sound your using is a triple tongue, and just tah kah is a double tongue). However, I wouldnt use it here. It is a primarily guitar website, and the sounds we brass players use to visualize our articulations wont do much good for a guitarist
Last edited by tubatom868686 at Mar 28, 2009,
#23
In my experience (perhaps a broader arena than you expect? Your tone is a little patronizing) that rhythmic system, in older print, is just written in 5/4, with accents marked. Newer print uses mixed meter or other less ambiguous ways.

2 against 3 is the most basic rhythm conflict, and both systems should be learned and understood separately so that when they are brought together they sound individual. "Triplets" used in a simple meter are just borrowed from the equivalent compound time but many students see this first. It makes perfect sense to me to say, "see what you did here? Use this system for the entire thing".


I was trained originally as a brass player, (nice catch), and for the quick singing of rhythms I haven't used anything better (I'd like to learn the crazy system tabla players use, though. Wow.). Especially on the guitar it is important to be able to sing things - we play sound so the root of all that we know to play should also be sound.
#24
Quote by Nick_
In my experience (perhaps a broader arena than you expect? Your tone is a little patronizing) that rhythmic system, in older print, is just written in 5/4, with accents marked. Newer print uses mixed meter or other less ambiguous ways.

2 against 3 is the most basic rhythm conflict, and both systems should be learned and understood separately so that when they are brought together they sound individual. "Triplets" used in a simple meter are just borrowed from the equivalent compound time but many students see this first. It makes perfect sense to me to say, "see what you did here? Use this system for the entire thing".


I was trained originally as a brass player, (nice catch), and for the quick singing of rhythms I haven't used anything better (I'd like to learn the crazy system tabla players use, though. Wow.). Especially on the guitar it is important to be able to sing things - we play sound so the root of all that we know to play should also be sound.


Can you name 10 songs where they used 5/4 in such a way? If you can, I will gladly step down, but I dont think its as common as you believe.

But the point is that you still shouldnt compare 6/8 to 2/4 in triplets. If that was true, I could go to my metronome and fit a bar of 6/8 in the same space as a bar of 2/4. But assuming the 8th note is constant, I cant. Therefore, teaching otherwise is incorrect.

I am however sorry for assuming that you had no experience and feel embarrassed for assuming you were still a young kid taking lessons
#25
you guys are being way too pedantic about this. triplets do not imply 3 notes per beat but the usual case is it ends up being that so its a fine way to explain it to someone who is new. 6/8 is felt in twos with 3 notes per beat, teh end
#26
Can't name any, sorry, it's fallacious anyway, but I'm arguing that they're both valid ways differing by convention. I'd favour 5/4 to write that, though, just because it gives me and whoever performs more freedom to tease and play with the rhythm. I dislike bar lines. They're too boxy.


The use of partial-truths to introduce concepts certainly annoyed me in high-school science class (but why do we need a different model of the atom every year? gah! angst this, angst that!). But it's a method that is effective as long as the student can understand that it is a partial-truth.
#27
Quote by cheese ftw
you guys are being way too pedantic about this. triplets do not imply 3 notes per beat but the usual case is it ends up being that so its a fine way to explain it to someone who is new. 6/8 is felt in twos with 3 notes per beat, teh end


No, it's not fine to explain it that way. All it accomplishes is providing a beginner with misinformation. The term "triplet" refers to playing three notes in the space of two, not three notes in the space of three. 6/8 has absolutely nothing to do with triplets. Nothing.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#28
For the record people:



The first bar does not contain triplets, the second bar does. There's a big difference!
#29
Quote by Archeo Avis
No, it's not fine to explain it that way. All it accomplishes is providing a beginner with misinformation. The term "triplet" refers to playing three notes in the space of two, not three notes in the space of three. 6/8 has absolutely nothing to do with triplets. Nothing.


oh come on.... you are really desperate to be pedantic here. Yeah it has absolutely NOTHING to do with it other than the fact that it has the same accents and sounds exactly the same as a bar of 2/4 with 2 sets of eighth note triplets.
#30
It is very difficult to understand a large concept - the time between explanation, attempts at application, and the aha! moment when it comes together can be shortened by packaging a large concept into pieces (bite-size) that can be understood quickly on their own. For this to work, sometimes a "filler" concept might be used to allow a concept to exist. When information is consolidated to a larger picture, this "filler" has to be unlearned. This is normal in many disciplines, and if you don't like it, don't teach that way. But don't use it as an attack.


I maintain that in simple meters, the "triplet" rhythm is a borrowed sound from the "parallel" compound meter. The problem is trying to go it backwards - compound time is where it comes from, not where it points to.
Last edited by Nick_ at Mar 28, 2009,
#31
Quote by Nick_
It is very difficult to understand a large concept - the time between explanation, attempts at application, and the aha! moment when it comes together can be shortened by packaging a large concept into pieces (bite-size) that can be understood quickly on their own. For this to work, sometimes a "filler" concept might be used to allow a concept to exist. When information is consolidated to a larger picture, this "filler" has to be unlearned. This is normal in many disciplines, and if you don't like it, don't teach that way. But don't use it as an attack.


Exactly. The idea that you should never bend the truth a bit to clarify a concept is very idealistic and naive.
#32
Quote by cheese ftw
oh come on.... you are really desperate to be pedantic here. Yeah it has absolutely NOTHING to do with it other than the fact that it has the same accents and sounds exactly the same as a bar of 2/4 with 2 sets of eighth note triplets.


No. I mean, I know you think were being picky and were just the bad guys out there over analyzing everything, but they dont even sound the same. Let me try and explain this to you visually.

Heres what 2/4 looks like compared to 6/8

1 + 2 +
1 2 3 4 5 6

See how they take up a different amount of space? They also take a different amount of space in time when you play them as a rhythm. The way you are trying to teach it is that the 6 8th notes in the 6/8 should take up the same space as the 4 8th notes in the 2/4. So your basically saying 4=6

It does not.
#33
2+2=5. When you learn to accept it, you will be free.


All you have to do is put a "dotted quarter = quarter" at your transition between 6/8 and 2/4 and your pulse is preserved.

That said, the entire point of writing [6/8 + 2/4] is to highlight the fact that the beat remains while the pulse changes.
#34
Quote by cheese ftw
Exactly. The idea that you should never bend the truth a bit to clarify a concept is very idealistic and naive.


This has nothing to do with clarifying a concept and everything to do with defining it completely incorrectly. There's no need to clarify the concept of triplets here because they have absolutely nothing to do with the question the TS is asking.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#35
Quote by tubatom868686
No. I mean, I know you think were being picky and were just the bad guys out there over analyzing everything, but they dont even sound the same. Let me try and explain this to you visually.

Heres what 2/4 looks like compared to 6/8

1 + 2 +
1 2 3 4 5 6

See how they take up a different amount of space? They also take a different amount of space in time when you play them as a rhythm. The way you are trying to teach it is that the 6 8th notes in the 6/8 should take up the same space as the 4 8th notes in the 2/4. So your basically saying 4=6

It does not.


yeah you need the triplets in the 2/4 for it to sound the same which is the whole discussion isnt it

also they do take up the same space, you are proposing that the eight notes between the metres are even which is wrong. They are only even if the 2/4 has triplets. Both meters take up the same space in terms of pulse.
Last edited by cheese ftw at Mar 28, 2009,
#36
Quote by Cyberbob
For the record people:



The first bar does not contain triplets, the second bar does. There's a big difference!


these things sound exactly the same, but you mustn't be confused people! They have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN COMMON!
#37
Quote by cheese ftw
these things sound exactly the same, but you mustn't be confused people! They have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN COMMON!


Play the two in the same piece at the same tempo and tell me they aren't the same.
#38
Quote by Cyberbob
Play the two in the same piece at the same tempo and tell me they aren't the same.

my post was sarcastic
#39
2/4 1 + 2 +
6/8 123 456

is the proper way to line them up together (the visual not exact because its not an even division). they both take up the same space, but the divisions are different. The relationship is exactly the same as triplets vs straight eights in a common meter which is why the triplet thing is an easy way to explain to beginners even though it is slightly incorrect because triplets do not imply 3 notes per beat but rather 3 notes in the space of 2.
Last edited by cheese ftw at Mar 28, 2009,
#40
ok, you all are arguing b/c you're missing a piece of info

if the piece says Dotted Quarter=Quarter around the transition, then you keep the pulse and just subdivide in three or two, depending on which measure you're on

123223 1&2& (the bolded notes being a steady beat)

if the piece says Eighth=Eighth, then you keep the Eighth note subdivision, so one measure is actually longer than the other

1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 (all of the notes are the same length)
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