#1
So, this was a song full of firsts. It's the first song I've ever written that's over twenty minutes, the first one to have a concept, and the first one with lyric ideas as well.

First I'll give a little background to the concept. The song is about the origins of the "shadow". The shadow concept is one of the archetypal theories that psychologist Carl Jung develped. Archetypes are part of the collective unconscious, the unconscious motives of our ancestors passed down through the generations. They include gender roles, survival instincts, and the shadow. The shadow is explained as the darkest of all the human archetypes, containing our deepest fears, hatred, and the source of our sometimes violent behavior. Interestingly enough, it is also the source of our love and our creativity.

So the song itself is going to be about the origins of the shadow (hence the title, because it's the story behind it) . Forces of good, the light, and evil, the shadow, clash but in the end, the shadow ends up winning out and humans become as they are today. Kind of a twist on the Adam and Eve story without all the fruit and the nudity.

The song is a Seven- Part epic and it tends to switch between lighter and darker moments.
I'd like some feedback specifically on the dynamics, the flow of the song, and the overall feel of it. A rating would be nice too.

Thanks a lot!
Attachments:
Behind the Shadow GP4.zip
Behind the Shadow GP 5.zip
Behind the Shadow midi.zip
#2
I cant believe I listened to this whole thing. You will probably lack replies due to its length.

You are a lucky son of a bitch that this was ****ing good! Otherwise I would have been pissed. Hell, by Verse 9 I was banging my head a little. Thats a good sign if I am doing that to MIDI sounds!!

As you could imagine, I am rather impressed with this. Usually when people put "epic" songs on here, they are generally not epic and usually rather boring. The only part that bored me was the "death metal" (or whatever) part and surrounding sections. However, that is a relatively small area. Maybe some more technical drumming would make that more interesting (or this song in general).

As a whole, the flow of the song is great. Many switches in mood (in a good way). With vocals this could go places. The guitar solos/duets were also very good. A bit to shreddy for my liking, though. Its not even the shred, its the excess shred. The song is very melodic and many of the solos (aside from the last guitar duet) kind of break that melodic side, for good and bad. I think mixing shred with more melody would make the solos more interesting and memorable.

It is so long that it is bound to have some problems, however you did a great job! Many people want to make 20 minute+ epics, but most of us are incapable. You have entered that realm.
Check out Hear the Indie for music reviews, interviews, and more.

Want a review? Send me a PM or email through the contact form on my site.
#3
Thanks for the crit. I'll take your advice into consideration. I totally agree that part III is a little boring and I'll try to change the drums to save the section because I really like some of the riffs. It was the first time I incoporated "deathy" riffs into one of my songs. I do need to work on the solos. They are a bit too shreddy and need some improvement, so that will be taken care of.

Do you have anything I can headbang to?
I can crit yours.
#4
Finally some more 10+ prog/power/symphonic metal song!! I have been hopin' to see one for so long now.

I am listening to this now. This is intrestin' and keeps me intrested. There are so many songs here described as epic but only a few are. This is one of those truly epic songs that is posted here.

If I am right I see a lot of Symphony X / Michael Romeo guitar influence aswell as some Dream Theater and such. Some parts remind me of To-Mera (A good thing - it is a great band).

Overall this is really good and I like it. It shows you are capable of writing a long song which many want to do but few can really do.
It flows pretty well too. Though a few places seem like a just: "Wow - it jumped into an acoustic part!!" But guess that can be good - for it will surprise the listener.

I can tell you this would have an place on my iPod and playlist if recorded and published. Great job man. I hope to hear more music from you!!


Btw - will you be recording this?


Edit: No need for C4C on me - unless I post a song sometime this summer then I would maybe want a C4C. So you'll just owe me one C4C, k?
Btw - I enjoyed this a lot...
"Fly with me forever high
And with these wings
We'll set the world on fire
Fly with me through scorching skies
You and I - The lie of lies"

-Symphony X
Last edited by Gulli05 at May 22, 2009,
#5
You are officially made of win and awesome.
We can only guffaw at all the humbug we are told about martyrs.
#6
@Gulli05: Thanks I'm glad you liked the song. You're absolutely right about the influences. Dream Theater and Symphony X are definitely the inspirations for the song, so a cookie to you sir . This won't be recorded for awhile because I'm curretnly working on putting a band together, but when we get all of our members, we can start recording my stuff and other songs that we may write together.

Oh, and AngrySockMonkey,

Quote by AngrySockMonkey
You are officially made of win and awesome.

sigged.
#7
My God this is long!!

The intro kinda seems redundant, but I guess it makes for a nice lead into the next section. I love the synth! As someone's already said, it's very Symphony X-like. Especially the transition into a new key at 35/36. The duet is cool, nice harmonies with nothing too flash. Good job working in the bass solo under the acoustic, it works nicely and sounds good at the same time.
The piano break is brilliant! Beautiful and it doesn't get too repetitive.
Loved the panning on the acoustic break bit. Very cool anthemic bridge and chorus sounding big and not too technical. I liked the stripped-back sound of the 2nd duet, too. Would have thought some kind of synth maybe should go under the riff at 300 though. Like the one a bit later - spooky and quiet.
Absolutely love the death interlude!! F*cking brilliant use of the diminished scale! And somehow it all manages to flow nicely back into a calmer melody. Chorus 2 was great, not as anthemic as the 1st but still a nice one. I loved the drop back down for part V btw.
Loving bar 533 onwards, reminding me of Constant Motion a bit.
The pre-verse/verse in part 7 is again rather DT and personally I think there's a bit too much of the strings in there.
I really liked the octaves over verse 9, though I felt to me like it was a sort of signal that the song was coming to an end, even though it wasn't (quite).
I also loved the repeating synth at the end.

I have to say (and I never use this word) that was definitely epic. Absolutely brilliantly crafted and I can't believe I actually listened to all of it! Very well done!
#8
that was 24:17 long....it seemed alot shorter

Wow...I just jizzed my pants..

That was incredible

10/10
Perfect.
Last edited by Aaron!! at May 23, 2009,
#9
Quote by Progbass92
@Gulli05: Thanks I'm glad you liked the song. You're absolutely right about the influences. Dream Theater and Symphony X are definitely the inspirations for the song, so a cookie to you sir . This won't be recorded for awhile because I'm curretnly working on putting a band together, but when we get all of our members, we can start recording my stuff and other songs that we may write together.


Yay! I got a cookie!!


Hope you find members for your band as quickly as possible.
"Fly with me forever high
And with these wings
We'll set the world on fire
Fly with me through scorching skies
You and I - The lie of lies"

-Symphony X
Last edited by Gulli05 at May 23, 2009,
#10
Dude, this feels like Dream Theater influence to me! No complaints though, I love them too , and it's not like it's too blatant a resemblance, there's loads of originality to choose from, and overall, it's an awesome tune. Really. Epic as hell - from beautiful atmospheric stuff to headbang meal madness... and all those freaky time signatures!!! I'm all into the experimental thing so it's win... for me at least :P

To answer your question, almost everything flowed really well, no transitions bothered me, even if there were some weird key-changes...

Only little piece of criticism - I think in some places, some extra atmospheric chords on strings/synth would enhance the feeling (it seems a teeny tiny bit empty occasionally). That's all.

Hehe, the song is a bit too long for me to go over all of it, so I'll just say - you rock!! Seriously, this song needs a band to play it right now! Get on with it! xDxD
Rating 10/10. Obviously.

(btw, wanna check my song Anharmonic Oscillations? Or not, it sucks compared to this :P)
#11
this is obviously great but i would like to see it and your other songs played by a band. because a lot of it is unplayable. it could also easily be 4 or so separate songs, no reason to try and make it 24 minutes because its "cooler" that way
Quote by shakin'cakes
First of all, I enjoy deathcore for it's complexity and it's the only genre heavy enough for me



Quote by Highway60Bob
I want an amp good for playing hippie tunes. I want it to be an actual amp, not a tube amp.
Last edited by pmeg568c at May 23, 2009,
#12
Holy ****.

Get a band and record this for real.
This is the only time I've ever been floored by a ****ing MIDI tune.
It get's a bit hard to focus exclusively on the song at about 10 minutes (while surfing, etc). It's not the song, though, once you get some real guitar and maybe some vocals this will be insane.

I can't imagine how long it took you to get all this into GP, let alone record it.

btw, if you would check out the song on my profile, I would love to hear some feedback from you.
#13
Wow, I really was not expecting something this great. I think I'll just have to go into detail with each part, I loved it so much haha.

Intro was great, loved your use of 5/4, one of my favorite odd time sigs. The acoustic melody was wonderful and the piano stuff backing it fit perfectly. I wasn’t really too fond of the transfer to at bars 13/14. It kind of interrupted the atmosphere that the intro had going. You should expand on the intro a little more, and maybe throw some drums or something in for a verse-type thing and then transfer to the metal part.

The metal riff was good, and I liked the keyboard melody backing it. You made good use of 7/4 here, it didn’t sound too awkward or forced. Verse thing at bar 36 was great. It really had an awesome symphony X kind of vibe to it. Loved the buildup at bar 44, especially with the strings backing it.

Guitar duet 1 was great, good harmonies, nice piano in the background and some cool phrasing. Very good use of 7/8 here. Acoustic guitar interlude thing was nice, but it sounded too high to me, you should move it down an octave. Lead bass part was good, but I didn’t like the faster licks, it didn’t fit quite right imo. Next riff at bar 96 fit perfectly and had a nice melody to it, but I think you cut it off a little too quickly. The piano interlude was awesome and it was even better when the drums came in for verse 1. Great harmonies here as well. Interlude riff was awesome too. Loved the break at bar 200 with the theme thing in there haha.

Return to verse II was perfect as was the bridge. Loved the strings behind everything, it made it that much more dramatic. Ahh, so glad you brought back the riff from earlier for chorus A. I wish more people repeated themes throughout songs with variations like that! Holy crap, piano break at bar 256 was beautiful.

Guitar duet 2 was nice, but it felt a little too shreddy for my taste, I would have liked to see some more creative phrasing here, but it still sounds good. Riff at bar 300 was good, I liked how you kind of stripped everything down to basics. It was a nice break from the atmospheric stuff, important stuff for dynamics. Pre-verse was great, loved the strings behind everything. Key change for verse III was excellent, very Symphony X-esque. I also liked the other key changes in verse III as well; how it kept getting heavier until it got to the death metal part, which was excellent. Good use of diminished arpeggios here. I wasn’t really too fond of the transfer IV though. It was a little too abrupt. I think it’s sound even better if you had ended on that Db5 chord in bar and kind of had a cross fade going, the distortion guitar fading out while the keyboards fade in.

I am absolutely in love with IV though; favorite part of this piece no doubt. Wonderful atmosphere going on here, almost reminiscent of pain of salvation. I liked the distortion chords at bar 374, but I think they would’ve sounded much better on a clean or acoustic guitar. Solo 1 was great, but once again it was a little too shreddy for me. I would have liked to hear some slower more intricate phrasing here. It started off good but it just got way too crazy. It sounded great, but I just didn’t think it fit the mood quite right. I felt pretty much the same way about solo II as well.

Post-solo riffs were great, loved the key changes and the strings. Once again really great use of odd time sigs, I really do envy your usage of them! Verse 4 was great, had a strong dream theater vibe to it. Chorus B was great, although it got sort of repetitive, but with vocals it’ll sound great. I really liked the abrupt transfer to the acoustic part. For some reason it just worked, it really grabs your attention haha.

Acoustic part was excellent. Although the transfer to bar 493 was a little too abrupt, you should have put an accelerando in there to build up to the 170 bpm tempo. The acoustic part at 170 was pretty good though. Instrumental part was fantastic, very dream theater once again haha. The part in bar 556 was a little ridiculous, although, it’s probably just the fingering. Loved the melody at bar 557 though, absolute win.

Solo 3 was great, but once again it was way too shreddy in most parts, just straight scalar runs, most of the time. And how the **** are you able to play the slides in bar 584? The 5/8 sweeps sounded sick, but they just seem uber technical. Not to sound rude or anything, but I’d like to see you play these solos. Solo 4 starts off promising but yet again it just goes into a bunch of scale wankage. I did like how you incorporated the riffs from earlier in the song though. Loved the return to the melody at bar 625.

VII was nice, but wtf was up with the jingle bell? Excellent piano and guitar harmonies though, and a sweet bass line to boot! Bars 663-664 sounded off-key though. Loved the pre-verse though, great keys backing everything and the riff sounded great with the eighth note rests. The break was great, it had a sort of folk-ish sound, almost a sort of wintersun vibe to it. Verse 9 was great and holy crap I’m so glad you returned to chorus A, excellent job there for the transfer back! Final guitar duet was perfect except for that A in bar 771 on track 3. An excellent ending to an incredible musical journey!

I’m pretty much stunned, this is quite a musical achievement, I really envy you for this now! I really liked this song much more than any of your other work. You showed some great use of dynamics throughout the song and established some wonderful atmospheres. Damn, just when I think I’m getting better, you unleash this masterpiece! Haha, you’ve really inspired me to work all that much harder on my own stuff. This is probably my favorite 20 min+ song I’ve heard. I like it even more than symphony X or dream theaters work! I love the shadows concept as well. I just posted up a new song, and I’d appreciate to hear your thoughts on it (linkage in sig). Keep up the awesome work! :Peace

EDIT: just realized you critiqued my song, I spent like over an hour critting this
Last edited by zakatak9389 at May 23, 2009,
#14
Crits Returned!

Thanks for the positive feedback everyone!

@Darksucker: I want to record it badly but I think it may have to wait until college when I can get a little bit more serious about the band. You know, getting signed and touring, all that jazz. The one I'm starting currently is more for fun. We're not looking to get a deal or anything.

pmeg, you're really hard to please aren't you. None of it is impossible to play actually. Every melody, chord shape and rhythm is very possible to play with practice. I made sure of that for the most part Some of the arpeggios may need a little work and some fingerings here and there need to be fixed, especially on the first two solos, which I forgot to do before I posted the song.

@zakatak: Thank you so much for that lengthy detailed crit. I don't think it's fair to compare yourself to me as to who's better. Our styles are so different, it would be too hard to tell. The comment about the song being better than DT and SX is a bit of a stretch. There's no way this measures up to the Odyssey. Oh and the jingle bell will not sound like that on a real recording. I will definitely use a bell tree which works a lot better. You know you like the jingles though.
#15
haha, im not really so much hard to please as I am more apt to like something that i can hear performed. to me, music composition is just as important as the performance of it.
Quote by shakin'cakes
First of all, I enjoy deathcore for it's complexity and it's the only genre heavy enough for me



Quote by Highway60Bob
I want an amp good for playing hippie tunes. I want it to be an actual amp, not a tube amp.
#16
Fair enough. I see you point, and the song will be changed if it becomes too much of a hassle to play all of the really technical parts. The solos are definitely not set in stone, but most of the song is.
#17
**** me that was long o.0

i must say, betweek you and zakatak, i have been inspired to start another epic metal song =]

i can't see anything wrong with it at all, apart from when you suddenly end the guitars without fading them...

hell of a lot of work put into that, and it was a damn good listen
#19
I'll add another little thing to my comment.

On your soloing, you often recur to these looong runs of 16th notes - that's not a lot of fun to listen, it feels "robotic", you know? Try to add some variety to the rhythm to enhance the feeling.

The rating still stands though. And thanks for commenting on mine!
#20
Quote by |_JR_|
I'll add another little thing to my comment.

On your soloing, you often recur to these looong runs of 16th notes - that's not a lot of fun to listen, it feels "robotic", you know? Try to add some variety to the rhythm to enhance the feeling.

The rating still stands though. And thanks for commenting on mine!


Yeah, I totally agree with you on that one. I need to improve all of my solos because a lot of them are fairly boring to listen to. I'm working on them right now, so I'll probably repost with some newer solos and some more little atmospheric things thrown in throughout the song as well.
#21
I'm probably only halfway through this 24 minutes, but it has been totally epic so far, wonderful job.
Rig
Fender 09 Standard Strat>Wilson Ten Spot II Wah>Boss DS-2 Turbo Distortion>EHX Big Muff Pi>Boss CE-2 Chorus>Crate V32 Palomino 212
Fender Deluxe Active Jazz Bass>(Same Pedals)>AcousticB20

Quote by WtrPlyr
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#22
Quote by Progbass92
Yeah, I totally agree with you on that one. I need to improve all of my solos because a lot of them are fairly boring to listen to. I'm working on them right now, so I'll probably repost with some newer solos and some more little atmospheric things thrown in throughout the song as well.


Glad to hear! I'll definitely DL the updated version. (that reminds me, gotta listen your other ones xD)
#23
*Updated*

Okay, so I fixed up all of the solos. I'm pretty happy about the first two, but the last two I'm still unsure about. I fixed fingerings, made the drums a little more active in part III, and used that crossfade idea into part IV. Thanks a lot zakatak .
Attachments:
Behind the Shadow GP4.zip
Behind the Shadow GP 5.zip
Behind the Shadow midi.zip
#24
OH MY GOD! Ugh... That was the greatest, most epic piece of Symphonic Metal I've ever heard. Dude, I just wanna bathe in that. It's really fun to play too, especially the acoustic intro. Thank you for destroying my soul with your hardcore metal. I salute you.
Last edited by Reighnart at May 24, 2009,
#25
Well I can't really say anything that hasn't already been said by others. Great piece bro. I think you went a little overboard with the uncommon time signatures, but they still sounded good. My only big complaint is that it's dreadfully long...
It was my privilege
#26
I love you....


can I have your babies now?

Only symphony x/dream theater and adagio are bands that have made songs epic enough for me to listen to almost half an hour of instrumental(s),
you have accomplished that with crappy guitarpro sounds,
how the **** did you do that?

Absolutely amazing piece, this has now become my favorite piece of music written by a UG'er


Just 3 things I need to say:


the riff at bar 333(or something like that..)


Wow... I love it, it has entered my riff hall of fame


Solo 2 at bar 390 starts of a little weird it seems, but that could just be gp's fault, so nothing to serious there


And if this ever makes it to a recording I wanna hear it (if it ever makes it to an album, I would definitely buy the album... )


I think this piece deserves a well earned 10 out 10


I'm so jealous of you, I never get my songs above 8 minutes or something, without them getting boring
kitty on my foot and I wanna touch it
meow meow meow meow meow meow
#27
Ok, I went through your updates, the crossfade stuff and the little extra atmospheric strings work very well, nice improvement

Those two last solos.... I'm not sure either you know? Yes it's an improvement from what you had before, but, perhaps because you had to alter your original structure, they're not really flowing as they should. But this is a small issue, I'd think you're basically good to go as it is.

I'll just leave you this as a tip for future songs: it'd be better if you didn't shred just for the sake of it (actually, Rumpy would flame the hell out of you for this :P - but that's his opinion). A more melodic approach can be very advantageous on the right occasion, and, the way I see it, a good solo should have this, complemented with some shred that contributes to the melody rather than just going up and down the scales.

(if you wanna take tips from a noob... xD)
#28
OMG, this was in a word...EPIC!! How did you write this?? I've been trying to write something like this for ages. Un-****ing-believable!
kudos
#29
Probably the most amazing song I've ever listened to on a midi. At 36 It reminded me of a lot of Symphony X it was awesome then the interlude somewhat reminded me of Honor Thy Father by Dream Theater a little. Amazing song move to maryland and I'll be in your band haha It'll take time for me to be able to play this but man it's amazing great job 10/10!

Around 285 kinda sounded something like Between the Buried and me Also man I love it!

If you wouldn't mind check mine out it sucks I know but yeah I have never written before
Link in signature
Last edited by Myung'sMusicman at Jun 9, 2009,
#30
Sorry, this isn't very helpful but I believe Chorus A (236) is in 6/8, not 3/4.

Just being pedantic here, it doesn't really help the piece at all, it would just be nicer to read I suppose. =\

Not sure if this occurs anywhere else, I've mainly just been listening, not looking at the score.

Also, I hope you read music and not tablature. There are some ridiculous jumps at 294 onwards.
Last edited by Regression at Aug 31, 2009,
#31
The transition out of Chorus B (bar 452) is in dire need of a facelift. You can't have a long, epic section and just end it like that!
#32
I really don't know where to start regarding reviewing this. There is simply too much to go over every little thing :P Thoroughly enjoying it overall (only half way atm :\).

The only thing that really stood out to me in a bad way was bar 37. I felt the longer length of the bar was weird among the shorter bars. You start getting into it and you're expecting the change to the next bar again and then you're like "O, it's still going" if you know what i mean :P

Besides that, amazing job. Very very impressive.

P.S. Just off the top of your head, how long do you think it took you to write this?
Last edited by 21Fretter at Aug 31, 2009,
#33
Haven't read the whole thread... sorry but I listened to the updated tabs.

Some parts will have benefits from lyrics. Only an instrumental song could be a little... indigestible. But I read the concept. I can tell you that you made a good choice. Seems VERY interesting.

Mostly flows like perfectly. I think it's because you stay in the same emotion all the way.

LOVE the bridge begginning at bar 229. That's the kind of music I'm eager to listen to.

III part was great for the contrast it brings.

Verse 4 is a bit weak. But the following chorus was really good.
This is incredible. Every time I'm going to get bored, I listen to the next part and I 'm like "Hell Yeah! This is the best part" and so on...

Be careful! Keep feeling in your solos! Don't misuse technical shredding, use rather bends and slides.

Riff bar 665 was great but I have already heard it somewhere...


Your song is fantastic. Great musical achievement. Hands down.
Eventually a question: how will you do better than that??
#34
Quote by grooaarrhh

Your song is fantastic. Great musical achievement. Hands down.
Eventually a question: how will you do better than that??


Thanks but I honestly think I've done much better than this now. I don't even really like this song anymore.
#35
That was really ****ing awesome dude. My main critique would be try and record this with real instruments. most parts were playable some seemed rather difficult.
#36
Quote by Progbass92
Thanks but I honestly think I've done much better than this now. I don't even really like this song anymore.


WHAT?
Give me some links to hear what you have done since! QUICK!

Just kidding , but I'm looking forward to listen to some of your new stuff.
#37
If you don't like this song any more, I'll gladly take it off your hands

I listened to the original version you posted, and my only comment is the constant stream of 16th notes in the guitar solos. I'm aware you changed it around, I'll listen to it again in a while.

During the death metal section, you have the bass and guitar playing in unison and then the guitars play the diminished arpeggios together. This part sounds a little thin without the bass playing anything. It doesn't need to be playing the arpeggios, however I feel that part would benefit from the bass providing a thicker texture.

Overall though, well bloody done. This is amazingly good.
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#38
Quote by Progbass92
Thanks but I honestly think I've done much better than this now. I don't even really like this song anymore.



YAH I DONT LIKE IT EITHER.