Page 1 of 3
#1
I might in the next couple of days find myself in the situation where I need to explain to other musicians how the interaction between the drums and bass goes, how to play along with eachother (bass, bassdrum, snare etc). I've never been a in a band with people who seemed to care much of the rythmsection, it has always been more "drums and guitar" rather than "bass and drums".

I know how it basically works, but if I as a bassplayer would meet a drummer who didn't know that much of it, or guitarists for that matter, how do I go about explaining it to them?


Also to give the thread more meaning you can give general advice on how to explain/communicate with other musicians about ideas.
#2
Just get together and start jamming. Get a groove going, and if you want to change something about it stop and try to explain exactly what you want.
#4
Quote by steven seagull
Music theory


Between a drummer and a bassist? Oh, that's gonna go over well..


lolz Just kidding But really, why do you have to explain something? It's something that is better felt than said, and something I don't think you'll be able to 'explain'. Besides, what is there to explain other than a drummer and a bassist need to listen to each other. And really, everyone should be listening to each other, not just the rhythm section.
#6
Theory is obvious for me aswell, but I guess I've had the misfortune of having been in bands who doesn't think theory helps them, because they can play a metal song without know it (no offence to metal, i'm just talking about the bands i've been in).

I've been spending the last 5 months a with thisa drummer that claims he "doesn't really listen to the bass when we play, I listen to the guitar". Everytime he says that I can't find the right words to explain that in order to have a tight sound the bass and drums need to be played together. It's kinda like"it sounds good when we play because it holds a solid tempo, so having the bass and drums together isn't necesarry". Same with the guitarist who doesn't really listen to bass in music.

I just don't know how to get a tight sound with musicians who seemingly doesn't care much for the rythmsection =/
#7
There's not much to explain unless ur playing non 4/4 time sigs.

if ur the main songwriter you would need to show them the entire song by yourself and don't play some recording.

After that, tell them (A) that's the song, have the drummer learn it riff by riff, and teach it to the bassist the same way, or (B) tell them that "that's what i kinda want and lets work on it".

The A method will annoy them if they don't react in a positive way to the song.

The B method is what you should say even if you don't plan on changing ur song, but be open to new ideas.
*reported*... twice in one reply!


OH NOES!!! Theowy is scawY!!!
#8
Quote by Strati
I might in the next couple of days find myself in the situation where I need to explain to other musicians how the interaction between the drums and bass goes, how to play along with eachother (bass, bassdrum, snare etc). I've never been a in a band with people who seemed to care much of the rythmsection, it has always been more "drums and guitar" rather than "bass and drums".

I know how it basically works, but if I as a bassplayer would meet a drummer who didn't know that much of it, or guitarists for that matter, how do I go about explaining it to them?


Also to give the thread more meaning you can give general advice on how to explain/communicate with other musicians about ideas.



So your going to be in a situation where you have to explain something that you don't have enough experience with to understand/explain?



To explain something to somebody you need to 1st understand the thing that you are to explain. If you have to ask on the internet, you really probably shouldn't be the one explaining the subject to anyone. Get some experience..... then explain things.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 27, 2009,
#9
Theory wont really help you communicate with a drummer. Theory explains almost exclusively music in a harmonic context, not a rhythmic context. And youll almost exclusively need the rythm for talking to your drummer.

First, learn how a basic bar of 4/4 is divided and all the names of the drums/cymbals in the set

Then get familiar with how drummer terminology. Things like time, fills, crashes, hits, ruffs, etc.

Study how drummers use different "vocabulary" to help build the phrases and sentences in music.

Then finally, get familiar with common rhythms and their applications. Samba, swing, rock, clavi, afro cuban, theres a ton.

I recommend buying a practice pad and a pair of sticks and start learning rudiments and some marching stuff.
Last edited by tubatom868686 at Jun 27, 2009,
#10
the problem is that the drummer needs to be listening to you AND the guitarist.

what you need to tell him is that the band must play as a unit, not as one guy following two other guys. if all members don't listen to ALL the members, then somebody is going to be out of step.

if you just convince him to focus on what you're playing, and not what the guitarist is playing, then it's the guitar that will feel left out and sound worse.

all three of you must play together.
#11
Theory wont really help you communicate with a drummer. Theory explains almost exclusively music in a harmonic context, not a rhythmic context.


Theory describes musical structure. Rhythm is part of that structure. I don't know what kind of amateur teacher or diploma mill-University you went to, but music theory has plenty to say about rhythm.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#12
Yeah, because when you've been practicing death metal for 6 straight hours in a 10x10 room with 5 sweaty, shirtless guys, it's always most efficient to communicate with your drummer via 16th century theory language.

Or, you could tell him to move his fat ass, get on the drums and show him.

You could also just say "ba da da da BA DA DA DA."

Either way.
#13
Quote by Archeo Avis
Theory describes musical structure. Rhythm is part of that structure. I don't know what kind of amateur teacher or diploma mill-University you went to, but music theory has plenty to say about rhythm.



This is very true however i think he was implying that generally Drummers are a bit lacking the theory department. However I guess any decent drummer should have a good grip on at least rhythm structure. Things like harmony and scale construction could go over their head a bit.

You could just literally show them or vocalize your rhythmic idea [which everyone else has said xD]
#14
yeah drummers don't deal in notes, so they don't need know hardly anything about the way music works, except in terms of rhythm
GENERATION 10: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
#15
Theory helps if you guys know how to write and read music.

But how about a program like guitar pro? So, you make your parts in it and give the drummer the files so he can listen to it and add his ideas and whatnot? I think it's a great tool to communicate when making music.

BTW if you don't know, Tuxguitar is freeware. Play around with the tools in it and get to know how to write music.
#16
Quote by blue_strat
Just get together and start jamming. Get a groove going, and if you want to change something about it stop and try to explain exactly what you want.

This hardly works with premeditated compositions. Jamming can be fun from time to time, but you've gotta be serious about who you are as a composer too.

Quote by tubatom868686
Theory wont really help you communicate with a drummer.

Whenever I was in a group, I spent countless hours explaining rhythm and odd-time signatures with irregular groupings of beats to the drummer.
#17
Quote by tubatom868686
Theory wont really help you communicate with a drummer. Theory explains almost exclusively music in a harmonic context, not a rhythmic context. And youll almost exclusively need the rythm for talking to your drummer.

First, learn how a basic bar of 4/4 is divided

Then get familiar with how drummer terminology. Things like time, fills, crashes, hits, ruffs, etc.

Then finally, get familiar with common rhythms. Samba, swing, rock, clavi, afro cuban, theres a ton.

I recommend buying a practice pad and a pair of sticks and start learning rudiments and some marching stuff.

Are you slow or something? I'm the drummer in my band, and am the only one who knows theory, and I am also one of the 2 people in my band that write the music.

as a drummer, I listen to the guitarist alot so my fills "fit" beacuse thats what more fans are listining to than the bass.


@ TS: explain to him that he should listen to the bassist, as it could make it more "Groovy"
Quote by Eliyahu
Mr.Cuddles killed The Metal!!!! FUCK YES!

Quote by TheReverend724
Mr Cuddles pretty much nailed it...

Quote by thanksgiving

"Oh Mr.Cuddles, you make my pants go boom boom. I are horny. Do not disappoint I"


Viscara (my band)
#18
In response to misinterpretation of my post

"Rhythmic Theory" as most of the people in this thread know it deals with odd time signatures, poly rhythms, etc. Most classes will go over basic rhythms. But its undeniable that the extreme bulk of music theory deals with notes, not rhythms.

Whether or not anyone in this thread agrees with that statement, I dont care. My advice to TS is still spot on for learning to communicate with his drummer
#19
Quote by tubatom868686
, I dont care. My advice to TS is still spot on for learning to communicate with his drummer

No... it isn't.
it isn't even close.
besides im pretty sure TS is better taking advice from a drummer(me) than a guitarist(you)who is probably never been in a band....


TS, just explain what you want to him and why, hes kind of like a normal person, but leave him room to interpret what you want him to play. Playing exactly what some one wrote for you can get boring...


EDIT: also listen to Archeo...hes a bloody genius...
Quote by Eliyahu
Mr.Cuddles killed The Metal!!!! FUCK YES!

Quote by TheReverend724
Mr Cuddles pretty much nailed it...

Quote by thanksgiving

"Oh Mr.Cuddles, you make my pants go boom boom. I are horny. Do not disappoint I"


Viscara (my band)
Last edited by Mr.Cuddles at Jun 27, 2009,
#20
Quote by Mr.Cuddles
No... it isn't.
it isn't even close.
besides im pretty sure TS is better taking advice from a drummer(me) than a guitarist(you)who is probably never been in a band....


TS, just explain what you want to him and why, hes kind of like a normal person, but leave him room to interpret what you want him to play. Playing exactly what some one wrote for you can get boring...


EDIT: also listen to Archeo...hes a bloody genius...


What makes you think Im a guitarist? No thank you sir, Im a bassist, a drummer, a tubist, and a pianist. Though I only gig on bass and tuba.

My advice to TS was to learn the basics of drumming so that he can understand the terminology and the language so to speak. How is that not even close to the right thing to do? Isnt that why you learned theory? So you could communicate better with guitarists? You would think that it works both ways
#21
I've been spending the last 5 months a with thisa drummer that claims he "doesn't really listen to the bass when we play, I listen to the guitar". Everytime he says that I can't find the right words to explain that in order to have a tight sound the bass and drums need to be played together. It's kinda like"it sounds good when we play because it holds a solid tempo, so having the bass and drums together isn't necesarry". Same with the guitarist who doesn't really listen to bass in music.


For players who ever think that any instrument or line in any piece of music is non essential, take out that part so that the drummer can see what kind of effect it's absence has. It should be very clear to any half decent drummer after having played a part with only the guitarist, and then with only the bassist, which is most essential to his function.
#23
Quote by Erc
For players who ever think that any instrument or line in any piece of music is non essential, take out that part so that the drummer can see what kind of effect it's absence has. It should be very clear to any half decent drummer after having played a part with only the guitarist, and then with only the bassist, which is most essential to his function.


Even no me (guitarist) and the drummer mostly compose and write music parts together and get the bassist in later (due to schedule etc) once the bassist has learned the parts its nearly impossible to play it without him it feels empty not as tight

just amazing the role of the shadow dwellers
#24
Quote by tubatom868686
What makes you think Im a guitarist? No thank you sir, Im a bassist, a drummer, a tubist, and a pianist. Though I only gig on bass and tuba.

My advice to TS was to learn the basics of drumming so that he can understand the terminology and the language so to speak. How is that not even close to the right thing to do? Isnt that why you learned theory? So you could communicate better with guitarists? You would think that it works both ways

it does work both ways but your stuipid comment about the kind of theory a drummer uses was way off imo most bands never leave 4/4, is it usefull to know? yes, will most band use it? no. your
besides I recall you stating this...Theory wont really help you communicate with a drummer. QUOTE]
besides, my music theory challenged band mates do it just fine explaining it to me when they air drum and ask if could do that...but I explaing stuff back is a pain in the ass when i tell them "hey! try this scale" or this kind off progression, or this style cadence...
however, in the end you should be able to trust your band to make the right noise if they really know what they are doing...
Quote by Eliyahu
Mr.Cuddles killed The Metal!!!! FUCK YES!

Quote by TheReverend724
Mr Cuddles pretty much nailed it...

Quote by thanksgiving

"Oh Mr.Cuddles, you make my pants go boom boom. I are horny. Do not disappoint I"


Viscara (my band)
#25
For players who ever think that any instrument or line in any piece of music is non essential, take out that part so that the drummer can see what kind of effect it's absence has. It should be very clear to any half decent drummer after having played a part with only the guitarist, and then with only the bassist, which is most essential to his function.


Yeah, but doesn't a drummer need to be able to play without hearing anything? Cause he is usually recorded first right?
GENERATION 10: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
#26
Quote by turtlewax
Yeah, but doesn't a drummer need to be able to play without hearing anything? Cause he is usually recorded first right?

yah, when you creating your drum part, if the band is doing a acoustic country song, and you playing unneeded massive fills and a blast beat that sounds out of place because your not listening to the band, the band will be pissed off...
When we record by ourselfs it's because we rehearsed the living daylight out of it and know out part.
Quote by Eliyahu
Mr.Cuddles killed The Metal!!!! FUCK YES!

Quote by TheReverend724
Mr Cuddles pretty much nailed it...

Quote by thanksgiving

"Oh Mr.Cuddles, you make my pants go boom boom. I are horny. Do not disappoint I"


Viscara (my band)
#27
It's like communicating anything, you have to speak to others at their level. If you both know theory, you can do it that way. If you know theory, and the other person doesn't, you have to get creative.

For example, I play in a band where the drummer writes most of the songs. When he has a new song, he basically hums/sings to us how he envisions the guitar riffs. The other guitar player and I then have to figure out by ear what he's singing. It's a bit of trial and error until we all come up with something that works.

I've been offering to give him guitar lessons so he'll be able to actually write and play the riffs instead of humming them all the time, but he has yet to take me up on the offer.
#28
Quote by turtlewax
Yeah, but doesn't a drummer need to be able to play without hearing anything? Cause he is usually recorded first right?


Either the band is playing in the next room and the drummer can hear them through head phones

A click track is placed so the drummer keeps in time to this

a scratch track could be also played, which is everyone playing so the drummer has the general jist of what is going on
#29
First of all, he needs to realize that he's part of the rhythm section. That's usually bass and drums, so it is important that they play TOGETHER. The rhythm section is the foundation of everything the band plays. And also, you make music TOGETHER, which means every member of the band needs to listen to eachother while playing, otherwise you're just left with a lot of noise, hardly any music at all.

Also, teaching him how to play, and what to play when? That stuff comes with experience. If he has done some covers (drumtabs are quite handy with that), he'll understand. When you've played an instrument for a longer time, you start to feel it, you just know what and how to play. Also, when it's really necessary, what's wrong with the ol' vocal cords? Just try to beatbox your way through it, if he's serious about the band, and seriously listening he'll be able to use your ideas.
Tell me who's that writin'...
Last edited by Kylianvb at Jun 29, 2009,
#30
Quote by blue_strat
Just get together and start jamming. Get a groove going, and if you want to change something about it stop and try to explain exactly what you want.


I wish that would happen. People just assume you should already know how to play what they're playing just by looking. It's stupid.
#31
well im not much of a bass player, and I dont want any "if you can play guitar you can play bass" basically you can, but not quite like a true bass player unless you put time into which I havent. but yeah most of the time ive seen the bass just play basically what the guitar was playing, like root notes and and such.
Quote by SkyValley
Kids keep having sex younger and younger these days. Eventually kids will be born without their virginity and their first words will be "bow chicka bow wow."
#32
Quote by punk_metal2007
well im not much of a bass player, and I dont want any "if you can play guitar you can play bass" basically you can, but not quite like a true bass player unless you put time into which I havent. but yeah most of the time ive seen the bass just play basically what the guitar was playing, like root notes and and such.


that stuff bores me, a bass player should be creative in their right just shadowing the guitarist is crap, they should be able to do a lot more interesting things than that, otherwise they are not good bass players
#33
Quote by drewfromutah
Yeah, because when you've been practicing death metal for 6 straight hours in a 10x10 room with 5 sweaty, shirtless guys, it's always most efficient to communicate with your drummer via 16th century theory language.

Or, you could tell him to move his fat ass, get on the drums and show him.

You could also just say "ba da da da BA DA DA DA."

Either way.


Having been in this situation with 3 sweaty shirted guys, you need to be able to sing the idea - but it definately helps to be able to be theoretically explicit. The more you all know, the faster you can learn.
#34
Quote by punk_metal2007
well im not much of a bass player, and I dont want any "if you can play guitar you can play bass" basically you can, but not quite like a true bass player unless you put time into which I havent. but yeah most of the time ive seen the bass just play basically what the guitar was playing, like root notes and and such.


As a bass player I almost never play the same thing as the guitar. I typically try to work more with the drums than with the guitar, and there is no point to having the bass play the root notes of all the guitar riffs, since that would just make the bass redundant, as you could just use an octave pedal on the guitar to get the guitar and "bass" out of one instrument.

The whole "if you can play guitar you can play bass" is bull****. It will be easier to learn, since you have an idea of how to make music, and will have better hand dexterity than had you not played anything before. However, it is its own instrument, and it requires different technique than guitar, and different parts.
#35
Quote by Strati
I might in the next couple of days find myself in the situation where I need to explain to other musicians how the interaction between the drums and bass goes, how to play along with eachother (bass, bassdrum, snare etc). I've never been a in a band with people who seemed to care much of the rythmsection, it has always been more "drums and guitar" rather than "bass and drums".

I know how it basically works, but if I as a bassplayer would meet a drummer who didn't know that much of it, or guitarists for that matter, how do I go about explaining it to them?


Also to give the thread more meaning you can give general advice on how to explain/communicate with other musicians about ideas.

if the drummer and bassist dont know how to play together, im guessing either they arent very good or they just dont click. sometimes people just dont mesh well. you have to find someone that compliments your playing. you need to work off each other. im not really sure how you explain that so someone really.
#36
it does work both ways but your stuipid comment about the kind of theory a drummer uses was way off imo most bands never leave 4/4, is it usefull to know? yes, will most band use it? no. your
besides I recall you stating this...
Quote by tubatom868686
Theory wont really help you communicate with a drummer. QUOTE]
besides, my music theory challenged band mates do it just fine explaining it to me when they air drum and ask if could do that...but I explaing stuff back is a pain in the ass when i tell them "hey! try this scale" or this kind off progression, or this style cadence...
however, in the end you should be able to trust your band to make the right noise if they really know what they are doing...


Lets be totally honest with each other. 99% of theory deals as is used in this forum deals with notes. This means that you need to learn a new set of vocabulary to communicate with your drummer. I never said you should know theory, and I especially never said drummers shouldnt know theory. What I said was for YOU to give instructions to YOUR DRUMMER, you have to learn terms and things that theory as we apply it usually doesnt cover.

So stop being a huge dick and gtfo already
#37
Meter and strong-weak beat hierarchy and syncopation are a huge part of western theory, and in textbooks often times comes way before harmony.
#38
Quote by Erc
Meter and strong-weak beat hierarchy and syncopation are a huge part of western theory, and in textbooks often times comes way before harmony.


Thats nice, but those are more concepts than terms and vocabulary that you need to talk to a drummer with.
#40
Quote by tubatom868686
Thats nice, but those are more concepts than terms and vocabulary that you need to talk to a drummer with.


I communicate with drummers all the time, through stating specific time signatures, and rhythms (through naming the note values, not through singing or tapping). You just might not be familiar with doing this, or are playing music which is very straight rhythmically, but these terms do exist, and are very helpful. That being said it is also important to know the names of all their drums, and different drumming techniques, in order to communicate to them.
Page 1 of 3