#1
Okay i've seen a lot of discrepancy with the whole phrygian mode. Some lessons ive seen said Phrygian is the 3rd mode in the major scale, and some say its the 5th. I personally think its the 3rd but im not sure.

The big question is which one is phrygian? 3rd or 5th?

And what do you call an A Harmonic Minor scale thats made phrygian? Is it like A Phrygian Harmonic? or what its it called?


Last thing just so I am clear. If you play the notes in A harmonic minor which are A-B-C-D-E-F-G#-A and it turns to phrygian that just means the notes are then turned to E-F-G#-A-B-C-D-E. The thing that makes me confused there is that if its the 3rd mode why does it start on the 5th note?

Ontop of that I really dont get how this is harmonic minor:

E-5-7-8
A-5-7-8
D-6-7

That part makes sense cuz its the notes in harmonic minor. But the bottom part from G to the E string doesnt seem like its teh same notes.

The tab for that is:

G-4-5-7
B-5-7
E-4-5-7

Those notes arent A-B-C. Because 4th fret G is B not A. I dont get it...
#2
Phrygian is the 3rd mode. I'll let someone else answer the rest.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#3
I think you are confusing yourself really. Use the search bar there are a lot of good mode articles on this site.
This is a lie...no reason why...right from the outset
#4
Read the ****ing sticky.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#5
A Harmonic Minor has the notes: A-B-C-D-E-F-G#-A --- yes. That means tabbed out in one of the positions is:


e|4-5-7
B|5-6
G|4-5-7
D|6-7
A|5-7-8
E|5-7-8


Or like this:


e|5-7-8
B|5-6-9
G|4-5-7
D|6-7
A|5-7-8
E|5-7-8


Notes are:


e|...    |G#|A |A#|B |C |C#|
B|...    |D#|E |F |F#|G |G#|
G|...    |B |C |C#|D |D#|E |
D|...    |F#|G |G#|A |A#|B |
A|...    |C#|D |D#|E |F |F#|
E|...    |G#|A |A#|B |C |C#|
Fret#:...|4 |5 |6 |7 |8 |9 | 


So you can play it in different ways, but remember that it contains the notes A-B-C-D-E-F-G#, then you can choose how you want to play it for yourself.
#6
The phrygian mode is a minor scale with a flattened second. I see no reason to arbitrarily assign a number to it. If you want to make A harmonic minor into Phrygian, you would lower the second and the seventh, and you would have A Phrygian.

And in the future, always put the lowest strings at the bottom of the staff when writing tab. That is the standard way to do it.
#8
Quote by tenfold
It's the 3rd. The 5th is mixo.


No. There is no reason to assign numbers to the modes. All it does is confuse people, causing them not to understand what a scale is, or to know the difference between modal and tonal music.

Phrygian is 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Mixo is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7
#9
Quote by ravenrage07
Last thing just so I am clear. If you play the notes in A harmonic minor which are A-B-C-D-E-F-G#-A and it turns to phrygian that just means the notes are then turned to E-F-G#-A-B-C-D-E. The thing that makes me confused there is that if its the 3rd mode why does it start on the 5th note?

Phrygian is the 3rd mode of the major scale, not the harmonic minor scale.

With that said however, take isaac_bandit's advice and learn about the modes individually, not as derivatives of something else. There is a lot of good information about modes in the stickies here. Don't worry too much about modes if you haven't fully gotten down more fundamental concepts though, as modes can be overrated.
#10
I could see where the confusion sets in. The Phrygian mode is the 3rd of the major scale, but also the 5th of the minor scale.
#12
Quote by isaac_bandits
No. There is no reason to assign numbers to the modes. All it does is confuse people, causing them not to understand what a scale is, or to know the difference between modal and tonal music.

Phrygian is 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Mixo is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7

Confuse them more with that.. great.

Modes are a different starting place on the scale. i.e., when you play E Phrygian, you're really playing a C Major scale but with a different tonal center.
#13
Quote by tenfold
Confuse them more with that.. great.

Modes are a different starting place on the scale. i.e., when you play E Phrygian, you're really playing a C Major scale but with a different tonal center.


Except, you're not playing the C major scale, nor are you playing in the key of C major, or C anything. You aren't ready to be worrying about modes. Read the crusades and start with the basics.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#14
Quote by Archeo Avis
Except, you're not playing the C major scale, nor are you playing in the key of C major, or C anything. You aren't ready to be worrying about modes. Read the crusades and start with the basics.



Oh, why must every topic about modes end up like this...
#15
Quote by Erick vonZipper
Oh, why must every topic about modes end up like this...


Because people always give wrong information on them.
Quote by UtBDan
this man hits the nail on the head.
#16
Quote by Archeo Avis
Except, you're not playing the C major scale, nor are you playing in the key of C major, or C anything. You aren't ready to be worrying about modes. Read the crusades and start with the basics.

I know you're not playing the C Major scale and are not in the key of C. I'm just saying they have the same notes, and it's a lot easier to just think of it as a different starting point of C Major instead of taking E and flattening degrees and such.
#17
I think I know where your confusion begun.

Phrygian, is the 3rd mode of the Diatonic.

Phrygian Dominant, is the 5th mode of Harmonic Minor

Phrygian and Phrygian dominant are from completely different modes.
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Last edited by MonsterOfRock at Jul 2, 2009,
#18
I understand all the stuff with major, minor, melodic minor, harmonic minor and all of that. Its just the modes were confusing me.

And thanks to the person who cleared it up saying that Phrygian is the 3rd mode in major but the 5th in harmonic minor. That actually made sense as I thought phrygian was the 3rd mode no matter what the scale was.
#19
Quote by ravenrage07
I understand all the stuff with major, minor, melodic minor, harmonic minor and all of that. Its just the modes were confusing me.

And thanks to the person who cleared it up saying that Phrygian is the 3rd mode in major but the 5th in harmonic minor. That actually made sense as I thought phrygian was the 3rd mode no matter what the scale was.
Harmonic minor is just natural minor with a raised 7th right? So take a look at the relationship of phrygian to both the major scale and the natural minor scale - then the relationship of phrygian dominant to the harmonic minor scale should make more sense. Edit: as should the relationship between phrygian and phrygian dominant
Last edited by zhilla at Jul 2, 2009,
#20
Quote by tenfold
Confuse them more with that.. great.

Modes are a different starting place on the scale. i.e., when you play E Phrygian, you're really playing a C Major scale but with a different tonal center.


It doesn't matter what you start and end on.

Play the notes E F G A B C D E in that order, and you will usually be playing a C major scale from mediant to mediant.

You can play C D E F G A B C over an Emb9 vamp, and you will be playing E phrygian from submediant, to submediant.
#21
The modes go in this order

Ionian (Major)
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian (Natural Minor)
Locrian

Each major key has a relative minor key, e.g. A Minor is the relative minor of C Major.

If you played the Phrygian mode in the key of C Major you would start on E, the third note of the scale and the third mode on the list.

Now if you're in a minor key and playing A Minor you are on the 6th mode and the 6th note of C Major scale. Whenever modes and scales are looked at, they usually start from the Major scale, as it's generally the first thing you learn when studying music theory.

As for you're harmonic minor problem, the harmonic minor is just a variation of the natural minor scale designed to be played in harmony with a specific chord progression ( if forget which one right now lol.)

Hope that helped a little, if it didn't blame the seering heatwave that has hit the UK and scrambled my brains.
#22
Do you guys just enjoy writing this **** out? The same questions have been asked here every day for the last 3 years, Archeo's right.. read the sticky and you guys should save your finger energy!
#23
If you played the Phrygian mode in the key of C Major you would start on E, the third note of the scale and the third mode on the list.


E phrygian is not in the key of C major (or C anything). If you don't know the difference between a key and a key signature, you certainly don't know enough to be worrying about modes.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#24
Quote by tenfold
Confuse them more with that.. great.

Modes are a different starting place on the scale. i.e., when you play E Phrygian, you're really playing a C Major scale but with a different tonal center.


Actually what your proposing is more confusing/misleading.

Modes are not "a different starting place on a scale". Modes are individual scales, just as Major and minor are. They have there own unique formula and sound.

They are all related, but are not the same scale as you imply.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 2, 2009,
#25
Quote by jpgr1987
The modes go in this order

Ionian (Major)
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian (Natural Minor)
Locrian


I would say the order is:

Lydian
Ionian
Mixolydian
Dorian
Aeloian
Phrygian
Locrian

This will provide the most fluid transitions, as only one note is changing each time.

Also Ionian is different from major; Aeolian is different from natural minor.

Quote by jpgr1987

If you played the Phrygian mode in the key of C Major you would start on E, the third note of the scale and the third mode on the list.


I assume by that you meant to play the notes EFGABCDE. Playing those notes, would be playing C major from mediant to mediant, and without harmony cannot be modal, and thus Phrygian cannot be involved. Also when you just said "in C major" your tonal center must be C, and the song must be tonal and major.
#26
Quote by isaac_bandits
I would say the order is:

Lydian
Ionian
Mixolydian
Dorian
Aeloian
Phrygian
Locrian

This will provide the most fluid transitions, as only one note is changing each time.


The problem is, that regardless of your logic, you'd be the only one saying this.


Quote by isaac_bandits

Also Ionian is different from major; Aeolian is different from natural minor.




Actually, Ionian and Aeolian exist as the Major and natural minor scales. There are no differences in formula, sound, or function.
shred is gaudy music
#27
Quote by GuitarMunky
The problem is, that regardless of your logic, you'd be the only one saying this.


Would I?

I'll compare the two orders.

Mine:

Lydian: 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7
Ionian: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Mixolydian: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Dorian: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Aeolian: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Phrygian: 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Locrian: 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7

You need to change only one note to modulate between all the modes in that order. And if you were to flatten the root of the Locrian mode you would be left with the Lydian Mode, albeit with a tonal center a semitone lower.


Other:

Ionian: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Dorian: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Phrygian: 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Lydian: 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7
Mixolydian: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Aeolian: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Locrian: 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7

This order doesn't make sense. Their are changes of 2, 2, 5, 2, 2, 5, and 5 notes rather than just 1 as in my order. Try modulating that way, and you'll have a hell of a time.


I'm sure plenty of people prefer my order.

Quote by GuitarMunky

Actually, Ionian and Aeolian exist as the Major and natural minor scales. There are no differences in formula, sound, or function.


Saying that would be denying the existence of modal music. They are the same in terms of interval, but different in sound, usage, and function.
#28
Quote by isaac_bandits
Would I?

I'll compare the two orders.

Mine:

Lydian: 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7
Ionian: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Mixolydian: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Dorian: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Aeolian: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Phrygian: 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Locrian: 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7

You need to change only one note to modulate between all the modes in that order. And if you were to flatten the root of the Locrian mode you would be left with the Lydian Mode, albeit with a tonal center a semitone lower.


Other:

Ionian: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Dorian: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Phrygian: 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Lydian: 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7
Mixolydian: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Aeolian: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Locrian: 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7

This order doesn't make sense. Their are changes of 2, 2, 5, 2, 2, 5, and 5 notes rather than just 1 as in my order. Try modulating that way, and you'll have a hell of a time.


I'm sure plenty of people prefer my order.


Saying that would be denying the existence of modal music. They are the same in terms of interval, but different in sound, usage, and function.


Isaac, I'm sorry but your just plain wrong here.

1) your order of modes is just that. YOUR order, based on your own logic. It's not necessarily bad logic, but it's inconsistent with common usage.

btw, that 2nd order (the common one that everyone uses) makes perfect sense. it's simply shows the relationship between the modes and the parent scale.

2) understanding that Ionian and Aeolian exist today as the Major and natural minor scales (as my university textbook states) does not in anyway deny the existence of modal music. If anything it clarifies the existence of modal music and it's evolution/connection to modern music.


It's great that you put thought into these things, but you have to realize that in alot of cases, the wheel doesn't need be re-invented.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 3, 2009,