#1
I'm trying this micing techique that a few studios use. I want to get the best quality possible, so I'm trying it.

It is when you have two SM57's making an arrow tip, sort of, like this:

/|

One is directly on center, one comes in at an angle. they are right on the grillcloth I tried it. I had them running into my Digidesign 002 mixer into protools. I moved the off-center mic until they were both outputting exactly the same. It sounded like ass. I'm not sure what it as. I knew these had to be, "in phase", but I don't know what it means or how to fix it. So i tried it with just one SM57 and it sounded much better. (Clips in profile if you're interested)

Any tips?

I use a Vetta btw
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#2
in phase would mean moving the other mic until it doesnt get that odd sound putter closer to the amp or alittle further
#3
Quote by DiSTuRBeD -26-
I'm trying this micing techique that a few studios use. I want to get the best quality possible, so I'm trying it.

It is when you have two SM57's making an arrow tip, sort of, like this:

/|

One is directly on center, one comes in at an angle. they are right on the grillcloth I tried it. I had them running into my Digidesign 002 mixer into protools. I moved the off-center mic until they were both outputting exactly the same. It sounded like ass. I'm not sure what it as. I knew these had to be, "in phase", but I don't know what it means or how to fix it. So i tried it with just one SM57 and it sounded much better. (Clips in profile if you're interested)

Any tips?

I use a Vetta btw


I dont bother because i cant be bothered with phase issues. If you can double track well just do 2 or 3 tracks with different mic positions seperately. The distortion sounds a bit boxy maybe check out your acoustics, the level you are recording at or take the mic further away from the cloth.
#4
Quote by CharvelDude
I dont bother because i cant be bothered with phase issues. If you can double track well just do 2 or 3 tracks with different mic positions seperately. The distortion sounds a bit boxy maybe check out your acoustics, the level you are recording at or take the mic further away from the cloth.



phase issues can happen in with that also.

sounded like ass with two mics, but good with only one?
you do most certainly have phase issues.

move one of the mics a little and it should be solved
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#6
okay, awesome fredman style micing is cool!! what you want to do is first get your first 57 sounding god damn HUGE 2nd take that 2nd 57 and put it in that shape, at 45 degree angle, now go and crank your amp really loud, do not play it though. let the HISSS sound, go, in your daw invert your phase. now go to the cab
and move the 2nd mic around untill you get barely BARELY in hiss, once you reach your minmum hiss, turn your amp down to your level of recording, and un active the invert phase button, should sound massive
#7
zoom in on the wave forms, the "humps" should line up if they are in phase, if not, just bump um till they are.

personally rather than 2 of the same mics, id rather use 2 different mics for even more different sonic characteristics
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#8
Quote by CatharsisStudio
okay, awesome fredman style micing is cool!! what you want to do is first get your first 57 sounding god damn HUGE 2nd take that 2nd 57 and put it in that shape, at 45 degree angle, now go and crank your amp really loud, do not play it though. let the HISSS sound, go, in your daw invert your phase. now go to the cab
and move the 2nd mic around untill you get barely BARELY in hiss, once you reach your minmum hiss, turn your amp down to your level of recording, and un active the invert phase button, should sound massive


this
#9
Quote by hoondog
zoom in on the wave forms, the "humps" should line up if they are in phase, if not, just bump um till they are.

personally rather than 2 of the same mics, id rather use 2 different mics for even more different sonic characteristics

Do this.
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#11
Quote by CatharsisStudio
defintly not man, i mean i guess it could work, but its gonna cause ALOT MORE phase problems, in this most likely. get it right in the tracking you should'nt ever have to mess with the phase in the wave



What if you made an awesome take and don't want track again?
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#12
Quote by CatharsisStudio
okay, awesome fredman style micing is cool!! what you want to do is first get your first 57 sounding god damn HUGE 2nd take that 2nd 57 and put it in that shape, at 45 degree angle, now go and crank your amp really loud, do not play it though. let the HISSS sound, go, in your daw invert your phase. now go to the cab
and move the 2nd mic around untill you get barely BARELY in hiss, once you reach your minmum hiss, turn your amp down to your level of recording, and un active the invert phase button, should sound massive


Okay, check my My Curse clip. Does that SM57 sound okay? If so, I got the first step dwon *phew*

However, I don't understand the rest. I know nothing about protools except for the play and record buttin. Bear with me here: Where is the phase button?

Next, I get a hiss, with the headphones on, right? Then with the headphones still on, I go to the cab to adjust it so no hiss comes through the HEADPHONES, or the cab?

Thanks man.
My Setup
Epiphone SG
Ibanez RG2EX1

Line 6 Vetta
Peavey Vypyr 15 for teh lulz

Check my clips out

Click foar epic clipz
#14
Quote by CatharsisStudio
headphones.


Okay, thanks, and where is the phase button on Protools?

Thanks again, you've been a huge help.
My Setup
Epiphone SG
Ibanez RG2EX1

Line 6 Vetta
Peavey Vypyr 15 for teh lulz

Check my clips out

Click foar epic clipz
#15
Quote by DiSTuRBeD -26-
Okay, thanks, and where is the phase button on Protools?

Thanks again, you've been a huge help.



check the manual
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#16
Quote by DiSTuRBeD -26-
Okay, check my My Curse clip. Does that SM57 sound okay? If so, I got the first step dwon *phew*


you can have the greatest production in the world but a performance that sloppy will always sound bad
tip: dont worry too much about epic production. as long as ****'s audible, it's all good, because good music will always shine through bad production.
hell, final fantasy 7's soundtrack is one of the most powerful ever and its practically all midi.
Cynic - Focus is an incredible album despite the horrible scott burns death metal production with ice pick guitars. Why? Because it's well written music played tightly.
#17
Old thread yes but nobody suggested flipping the phase of one of the tracks. I use this technique with two Blue encore 100i's and pretty much every time they're almost 180° out of phase so I invert one track in the daw as a matter of course. May be because these mics have a bigger round screen so bringing the capsule as close together as sm57s is impossible. Inverting the phase in one track on the daw can be the end of your problem. If it needs to be nudged a little more or less than 180, there are plugins that let you do that. Beta bugs phasebug is a free one that works. You have to jbridge it though if you're running 64bit. the plug-in is only available as 32bit. Hope I help somebody.
#18


You can super zoom on both waveforms and the peaks and valleys have to match up. There are phase tool plugins but that is a nightmare to get right, it is better to do it visually.

If you think you got it, then move towards the middle of the song and look at it again, it has to match.

You can try this one above the other at the same angle in relation to the speaker or try on another speaker. If you want to get really precise, look at getting the same distance between grille and mic.

The idea really is to get someone to play for you or reamp already recorded DI signal, while you move those mics around with iso headphones so you're hearing only the mix of the mics, not the speaker in the room.
#19
Quote by adamlee011
Old thread yes but nobody suggested flipping the phase of one of the tracks. I use this technique with two Blue encore 100i's and pretty much every time they're almost 180° out of phase so I invert one track in the daw as a matter of course. May be because these mics have a bigger round screen so bringing the capsule as close together as sm57s is impossible. Inverting the phase in one track on the daw can be the end of your problem. If it needs to be nudged a little more or less than 180, there are plugins that let you do that. Beta bugs phasebug is a free one that works. You have to jbridge it though if you're running 64bit. the plug-in is only available as 32bit. Hope I help somebody.

1) People did mention adjusting the phase relationship between the two mics, so there wasn't really a need to bump the thread.

2) It's not flipping the phase, it's inverting the polarity. Inverting the polarity adjusts the phase alignment of tracks because the waveform is flipped vertically, meaning peaks are now troughs and vice versa.


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#20
Old thread new thread, people like me find it in a search and find any added info helpful. Specifically, using the encore 100i instead of 57s. I ran into the same thing. You can only get the capsules so close together. The technique works great with the blue mics but you do have to flip one 180 (go ahead correct my terminology.) if you take the time to set them up ideally, they are in fact a perfect 180 or close enough that it works perfectly. The op could possibly have solved his problem simply by inverting one track. Maybe not.
Last edited by adamlee011 at May 22, 2016,
#21
Quote by adamlee011
The op could possibly have solved his problem simply by inverting one track. Maybe not.


If the signal was perfectly out of phase, sure it would correct the phase issues, but it doesn't mean it will sound better or worse than leaving them out of phase, and only to an extent. With one mic being angled, what the diaphragm is sending to the Pre and DAW will sound different and you can't just move a track to correct the phase 100% of the time.

To be fair, though, phase is a matter of preference for some sounds. Some people like reversing the bottom snare mic, I prefer not to because it help give the snare some tonal space. Phase can also be great for removing amp hum (record a full track of an amp's hiss and reverse it in relation to a guitar track for the amp. If done properly, you can kill a lot of hum without needing a gate or surgical EQ)

One of the reasons people use multiple mic techniques is because of the phase relations between the mics. This applies to the Bob Rock (57 & 421), the modified Bob Rock (57, 421, U87 room), or any technique, knowing how to balance the mics to achieve the tone required is what makes these so powerful. I don't believe in any way that Bob Rock (who while I hate the man for some things, his guitar recording techniques are amazing) did any phase correction, and from experimenting simply adjusted levels until is sounded good. While some techniques are theoretically phase-aligned by default (X-Y, MS, Blumlein), some aren't (Looking at you, ORTF).

Try lowering one of the mics' levels, then reset and lower the other and you'd be surprised at the range of tones you can get. Sometimes radical changes.
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#22
I remember one of the boards that I worked with had a phase sweep so you didn't have to be locked into just these two options, you could move the phase as a fader and listen until you find something you like.
I've gotten some great lead sound with dynamic on the grille and a condenser about quarter of a foot with its null facing the grille.
#23
Quote by adamlee011
Old thread new thread, people like me find it in a search and find any added info helpful. Specifically, using the encore 100i instead of 57s. I ran into the same thing. You can only get the capsules so close together. The technique works great with the blue mics but you do have to flip one 180 (go ahead correct my terminology.) if you take the time to set them up ideally, they are in fact a perfect 180 or close enough that it works perfectly. The op could possibly have solved his problem simply by inverting one track. Maybe not.

Maybe it will work at getting a good enough approximation; but...
Quote by CatharsisStudio
okay, awesome fredman style micing is cool!! what you want to do is first get your first 57 sounding god damn HUGE 2nd take that 2nd 57 and put it in that shape, at 45 degree angle, now go and crank your amp really loud, do not play it though. let the HISSS sound, go, in your daw invert your phase. now go to the cab
and move the 2nd mic around untill you get barely BARELY in hiss, once you reach your minmum hiss, turn your amp down to your level of recording, and un active the invert phase button, should sound massive

This will work better every single time, and will work regardless of microphone types used.
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#24
Back in the ancient days, when we did the polarity trick with multiple mics on a cab, we had one further step to take, and that is listening to the nature of the residual hiss.

Because of the speed of sound and the size of the wavelengths involved here, the mics cannot in physical reality cancel out completely, there WILL be a residual hiss. THAT hiss will be at the frequencies that are *MOST* of phase once the polarity is flipped back

Looking at the residual hiss on a spectrum analyzer will show you a comb filtered signal, but not a perfectly level one, you will see trends and you will see a wide chunk that is quietist.

THAT is the frequency range you will hear the most of when the mics are back in their correct polarity. Use this to your advantage as what you are doing in fact is creating a mellow bandpass filter. Make sure that trend is in the area that you want the most emphasis on