#1
I thought at first this might belong in the religion and philosophy thread but this, I believe, goes beyond the purpose of the thread. I would appreciate any help in strengthening this argument as well as any constructive criticism.

I was giving this some thought and this is roughly what came up in my mind.

Many theists claim that god created the universe. When asked who created god they often answer that god is outside of space and time and has always existed and thus required no creator. My argument is meant to prove that since actual infinites are impossible god could not possibly have created the universe.

Assuming that god is infinite and that he created the universe it is clear that god must have existed an infinite amount of time prior to having created the universe. This is equivalent to counting down from infinity to the point in time in which god created the universe. The problem with that is you can never get to that point in time in which god created the universe if you are counting you are counting down from infinity. In order for you to ever reach the point when the universe was created you would have to assign infinity a value.

Since the only way to reach the creation of the universe from the beginning of god's existence is to assign a finite value to the amount of time god existed before having created the universe then god, if he exists, could not possibly have been infinite and since he only existed a limited amount of time before the creation of the universe he requires a creator. The same rule would apply to god's creator and so on ad infinitum.

This is essentially the whole argument in a nutshell.

Tell me what you think or what I could do to improve it.

Sorry if I wrote too much, I get resentment from people because I write too much
I realized I was god when I prayed and saw that I was talking to myself.
#2
So, god must have been around BEFORE big bang? And he must have been around forever?

Makes sense.
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#3
your argument makes no sense. the whole thing relies on the idea that one must be able to count down from a certain point in time to when the universe was created? why is this the case? I'm not taking a religious stance here, but it seems like you just cant accept the idea of infinity
#4
Quote by oncetaken
your argument makes no sense. the whole thing relies on the idea that one must be able to count down from a certain point in time to when the universe was created? why is this the case? I'm not taking a religious stance here, but it seems like you just cant accept the idea of infinity

Pretty much this.

Assuming God is outside of time as we see it, then we don't have to be able to understand the period of time before he created the universe.
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#7
Quote by hawttieblonde69
Why are you trying to prove to someone that there religious beliefs are wrong in the first place? Isn't that there own business?


Same could be said to why Religions try and make me take their beliefs as fact by coming to my door and preaching at me. Surely what I believe is my own business?

They try and interfere with me, I'll return the favour.
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#8
I think it makes sense...
But it is too long, make it shorter if you can when ur explaining this to a theist.

Good argument dude
#9
Quote by Fleabag
Pretty much this.

Assuming God is outside of time as we see it, then we don't have to be able to understand the period of time before he created the universe.


In a nutshell, this.

The argument would be that as human beings we could not understand the divine nature of God
#10
*reported* this clearly belongs in the Religion and Philosophy thread.
Quote by hawttieblonde69
Why are you trying to prove to someone that there religious beliefs are wrong in the first place? Isn't that there own business?

No-one's going to force them to read anything or listen to anyone. If they wish to learn stuff that's fine, or they can remain ignorant and cling to ridiculous beliefs because it's easier.
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#11
Quote by VengeanceIsMine

Assuming that god is infinite and that he created the universe it is clear that god must have existed an infinite amount of time prior to having created the universe. This is equivalent to counting down from infinity to the point in time in which god created the universe.

How the hell did you reach that conclusion? **** makes no sense
#12
You're doing it wrong.

Scientific arguments do not win against faith.
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#13
How about there's no such thing as a floating guy in the sky, and you're all asses?
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#14
Quote by oncetaken
your argument makes no sense. the whole thing relies on the idea that one must be able to count down from a certain point in time to when the universe was created? why is this the case? I'm not taking a religious stance here, but it seems like you just cant accept the idea of infinity

My argument disproves the notion that god could have created universe exactly because he is infinite. There could not have been an infinite amount of time before the creation of the universe. If infinity is endless then creation would have never happened and in order for creation by a god to have happened there would have had to have been a finite amount of time before the point of this creation.
I realized I was god when I prayed and saw that I was talking to myself.
#15
The bible says God was. Meaning he has always existed. The idea is supposedly beyond human comprehension and baffles even priests and pastors. And until we come up with hard evidence on how the universe was created that idea or similar ones will stick.
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#16
If you can prove the point that actual infinities are impossible, you might something. However, I (and everyone I know) am very fond of the idea of infinity. I don't know if it's a debated topic or if there's already a consensus, but you might do some Googling.

Additionally, if God exists outside the laws of space and time, who's to say that God can't exist outside the boundaries of infinity as well? I've always found it futile to try to describe God with human logic.

EDIT: Oh, I think I see what you're saying now. I think the point is only valid if you treat time as a one-way number line, rather than a two-way number line. Even if you do, it's still impossible to describe God with human logic.
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Last edited by Quintessence153 at Jul 7, 2009,
#17
This thread is an example of why I don't like religion

It can't be argued, it can be proved or disproved, and while I see no harm in religion, I find people who preach it as fact most annoying, especially considering the problems in religion as a whole, and the problems in the stories that certain religions tell.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
#18
Quote by jbridge90
In a nutshell, this.

The argument would be that as human beings we could not understand the divine nature of God

Well wouldn't it just be easier to say that human beings could not understand the nature of the universe itself.
I realized I was god when I prayed and saw that I was talking to myself.
#19
You're assuming that time existed before the universe.

I'm also not taking a religious stance, more playing the devil's advocate here than anything, but aren't space and time not one and the same? One cannot exist without the other, so 'before' the universe was created, there was no time to count down anyway.
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#20
Your trying to disprove a theory by using another unproven theory. So no your argument does not work.
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#21
Quote by VengeanceIsMine
Well wouldn't it just be easier to say that human beings could not understand the nature of the universe itself.


You're failing to see that many religions (not just Christianity) can explain anything with the idea of an all powerful entity (the idea of this is flawed as well, due to the fact that in the way that the world works would show that God is not), no matter what is said against it.

So I say we close this thread before anything bad happens.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
#22
Quote by Limabean231
The bible says God was. Meaning he has always existed. The idea is supposedly beyond human comprehension and baffles even priests and pastors. And until we come up with hard evidence on how the universe was created that idea or similar ones will stick.


And what an entertaining day that will be.

But also a sad day in my opinion. To have a belief that plays a central role in your life suddenly dis proven would probably destroy you mentally. There will probably be many suicides. That is if Christianity isn't correct.
#23
Quote by VengeanceIsMine
I thought at first this might belong in the religion and philosophy thread but this, I believe, goes beyond the purpose of the thread. I would appreciate any help in strengthening this argument as well as any constructive criticism.

I was giving this some thought and this is roughly what came up in my mind.

Many theists claim that god created the universe. When asked who created god they often answer that god is outside of space and time and has always existed and thus required no creator. My argument is meant to prove that since actual infinites are impossible

I stopped reading here.
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#24
"Time" as we know it only exists inside this Universe. It's part of it. Therfore God wouldn't be subject to infinite of finite amounts of it. You misunderstand what people say when they talk about God, I think.
#25
Quote by jbridge90
And what an entertaining day that will be.

But also a sad day in my opinion. To have a belief that plays a central role in your life suddenly dis proven would probably destroy you mentally. There will probably be many suicides. That is if Christianity isn't correct.



No. They'll just stick their fingers in their ears and continue to live in jesus land, much as they do today. I mean, there is more than enough proof that genesis is complete BS, but many still believe it word for word.
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#26
So, your arguement is that you can't have a specific point in infinity? Because you can.

But I want to try to disprove god too. If god is omniscient and all powerful and knows that that has happened and all that will happen, that means the future must be pre-determined. If the future is pre-determined then we can't be held responsible for our actions, and therefore hell can't exist. If hell doesn't exist, then heaven shouldn't either based on principals of balance. No heaven = No god.
#27
Quote by StewieSwan
No. They'll just stick their fingers in their ears and continue to live in jesus land, much as they do today. I mean, there is more than enough proof that genesis is complete BS, but many still believe it word for word.


Were you refering to the 6 day creation theory or something else? Because they've become very good at 'explaining' it
#28
Quote by RU Experienced?
How the hell did you reach that conclusion? **** makes no sense

Sorry if I was somewhat unclear about it.

My point is that if god is infinite in order for him to have created the universe then he must have existed for an infinite amount of time before having created the universe. This idea would imply that there was an infinite amount of time before the universe's creation by the deity. If there was an infinite amount of time before the point of creation, creation would never have been reached since you would still have to wait for an infinity in order to reach the point in which god creates the universe to begin with. The only way to have reached creation is for god to have existed a finite amount of time before the point of creation. If god existed for only a finite amount of time before creation then he required a creator and his creator a creator and so on forever.

You could argue that god is beyond time but you'd be making this assumption without any evidence other than perhaps scripture which is known to be vastly unreliable.

And it would much easier to assume the same about the universe because at least this assumption is requires less use of unverifiable claims such as the existence of a deity and the deity's properties.
I realized I was god when I prayed and saw that I was talking to myself.
#29
Quote by Quintessence153
If you can prove the point that actual infinities are impossible, you might something. However, I (and everyone I know) am very fond of the idea of infinity. I don't know if it's a debated topic or if there's already a consensus, but you might do some Googling.

Additionally, if God exists outside the laws of space and time, who's to say that God can't exist outside the boundaries of infinity as well? I've always found it futile to try to describe God with human logic.


Well wouldn't it just be easier to assume the same about the universe at least then you'd have a much simpler set of assumptions.
I realized I was god when I prayed and saw that I was talking to myself.
#30
Quote by Vampiric Lord99
So, your arguement is that you can't have a specific point in infinity? Because you can.

But I want to try to disprove god too. If god is omniscient and all powerful and knows that that has happened and all that will happen, that means the future must be pre-determined. If the future is pre-determined then we can't be held responsible for our actions, and therefore hell can't exist. If hell doesn't exist, then heaven shouldn't either based on principals of balance. No heaven = No god.

Who ever said that God knows all that will happen? Personally, I believe that the future is only written as far as the choices that have been made, the Matrix point of view.
No animals were harmed in order to bring you the above post. However, several photons were greatly inconvenienced.

ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNO-TOAD
#31
Quote by VengeanceIsMine
Sorry if I was somewhat unclear about it.

My point is that if god is infinite in order for him to have created the universe then he must have existed for an infinite amount of time before having created the universe. This idea would imply that there was an infinite amount of time before the universe's creation by the deity. If there was an infinite amount of time before the point of creation, creation would never have been reached since you would still have to wait for an infinity in order to reach the point in which god creates the universe to begin with. The only way to have reached creation is for god to have existed a finite amount of time before the point of creation. If god existed for only a finite amount of time before creation then he required a creator and his creator a creator and so on forever.

You could argue that god is beyond time but you'd be making this assumption without any evidence other than perhaps scripture which is known to be vastly unreliable.

And it would much easier to assume the same about the universe because at least this assumption is requires less use of unverifiable claims such as the existence of a deity and the deity's properties.


But then you just end up realizing that you have no real way to disprove their statement that God's divinity cannot be comprehended by humans..