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#1
Not long ago, I read an article detailing how the author believed that the holocaust could never happen in today's society because of the internet. His reasoning was sound - that because of the internet, Hitler could not possibly get support in his campaign, because everyone would have a voice which would help draw people to a more reasonable conclusion than Hitler's. It made sense to me; how could anyone possibly spread so much hate and cause so much destruction when it would only take a single blogger to tell the world why it's wrong?

However, more and more, I have come to realise that this is simply wrong. State sovereignty overrules global protest. This fact is evident in the greatly diminished support of the Iranian protesters over recent days, and other world events such as the growing provocation from North Korea.

I believe that the internet should have the power to correct injustice. More than that, I believe that the internet should have the power to harmonise the world. It should act as a forum where people from all over the world can share views and express them in a way which leads to understanding. In fact, I thought it did. Often times, I log on to UG and enter a thread, and just read. There are arguments on both sides, but what you find is that in big threads, most people come to sensible conclusions about the topic. The anarchy thread is a perfect example. Most people do not support anarchy, but if you spend a bit of time in the thread, you can at least get an understanding of why some people DO.

What I want to hear a discussion about is why is this not so? Why is it that when we have a tool which allows anyone to speak, which allows for a peaceful discussion where nobody can possibly get physically hurt, we still have conflict which results in needless deaths, violence and torment?
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#2
inb4 internet is serious business etc.

EDIT: My opinion: if forums lead to people actually being educated about various opinions, your example of anarchy being a very good one, then I'm all for it. The amount of ignorance in the world around such topics is astounding.

Anarchy =/= Sex Pistols.
Communism =/= Soviet Russia.
Capitalism =/= Democracy.

etc. etc.

And it's not all political ideas either. I'm constantly lurking the philosophy thread in order to learn new ideas, new opinions and so on.

Anyway, I think I've strayed off topic a little. I think something like the holocaust would still be possible, and there are still people living in massive oppression around the world. What I think the internet allows, provided it is not controlled like in China, is for people to organise protests, demonstrations, revolts much more effectively, in more secrecy and of a larger magnitude.

Hell, the Anonymous protests against Scientology all around the Western world is an example (albeit not quite of the same scale ) of how people can organise themselves using the internet.
Last edited by michal23 at Jul 10, 2009,
#3
Quote by michal23
inb4 internet is serious business etc.

question answered....
Quote by Machanix
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#4
Sum that up in less words? It's too early to read all of that, man

EDIT: one of those td:larraraoragjas thingys (I guess that's what they are)
#5
Quote by sam b
Sum that up in less words? It's too early to read all of that, man

EDIT: one of those td:larraraoragjas thingys (I guess that's what they are)

just read the last paragraph, then...
Quote by Machanix
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#7
first of all, the internet is a tool for connecting people. its up to the people themselves as for what they say/don't say etc. so the internet won't correct injustice, the people that use the internet will.

also, the internet contains a vast majority of sites dedicated to different subjects with different viewpoints and different opinions... its just too large of a place for everyone to truly be heard.

if there was a way all of the retards could be filtered out, the internet would be a much more valuable tool. as for now, its just something you can play games and look at porn on.
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#8
Quote by instagata0
question answered....


What I don't want is noobs coming here and just messing around, 'cause I actually think this could be a nice discussion.

And I've edited in my opinion.
#9
Quote by Cianyx
Try telling North Korea they're wrong

but it's not about who's 'right' or 'wrong', it's about coming to an understanding of why people think what they think.

north korea know that they're right, just like america knows the opposite. i know that anarchy wouldnt work, just like anarchists know that it would.

it's got nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong, it's about having an infallible method of forethought.
Quote by Machanix
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#10
As the internet is theoretically the epitome of free speech, with the ability for anyone with access to post anything with little risk of repercussion, it could act to either bring extremist views together or to highlight more liberal thinking.

On the other hand, we can see in China where the 'Green Dam' software is being employed to monitor content and recently a UK police blogger who was almost prosecuted (but had his blog taken down instead) over controversial matters. Two political contexts, same shit.
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#11
Quote by ep1kz
first of all, the internet is a tool for connecting people. its up to the people themselves as for what they say/don't say etc. so the internet won't correct injustice, the people that use the internet will.

also, the internet contains a vast majority of sites dedicated to different subjects with different viewpoints and different opinions... its just too large of a place for everyone to truly be heard.

if there was a way all of the retards could be filtered out, the internet would be a much more valuable tool. as for now, its just something you can play games and look at porn on.

this is exactly right. it's practically useless as a tool for helping resolve conflict. my question is why is it like this?

i am completely at a loss for why we are allowing a tool with somewhat of a potential to get us further away from dooms-day and closer to world peace, to go to waste.
Quote by Machanix
We play guitar.... we're automatically on top of the world.

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A Wasted Youth
Is Better By Far
Than A Wise And Productive Old Age

Good Girls Go To Heaven, But The Bad Girls Go Everywhere!
#12
Quote by instagata0
this is exactly right. it's practically useless as a tool for helping resolve conflict. my question is why is it like this?

i am completely at a loss for why we are allowing a tool with somewhat of a potential to get us further away from dooms-day and closer to world peace, to go to waste.


Because the majority of people with access to good internet are of the mindset that "I have a good life, therefore all is good".

You think the people oppressed in Zimbabwe have the internet? Let alone broadband...
#13
Quote by instagata0
this is exactly right. it's practically useless as a tool for helping resolve conflict. my question is why is it like this?

i am completely at a loss for why we are allowing a tool with somewhat of a potential to get us further away from dooms-day and closer to world peace, to go to waste.


it is like this because getting all of the internet users together and getting them to wisen up and be considerate, intelligent people with well-thought out arguments and even to just have an ounce of courtesy is downright impossible.

to put it simply, human beings are ****ing dumb. me included.
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#14
Quote by instagata0
but it's not about who's 'right' or 'wrong', it's about coming to an understanding of why people think what they think.

north korea know that they're right, just like america knows the opposite. i know that anarchy wouldnt work, just like anarchists know that it would.

it's got nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong, it's about having an infallible method of forethought.



One of the reasons why the internet can't correct injustices of the world. I was responding to this btw

Quote by instagata0
when it would only take a single blogger to tell the world why it's wrong?


Edit:
It can't resolve conflicts because it has no hard power. It has power to rally up support and hold protests, but it will never have to same magnitude of power a military commander has which is what any nation fears. That and trade deals.
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Last edited by Cianyx at Jul 10, 2009,
#15
Quote by ep1kz
it is like this because getting all of the internet users together and getting them to wisen up and be considerate, intelligent people with well-thought out arguments and even to just have an ounce of courtesy is downright impossible.

to put it simply, human beings are ****ing dumb. me included.


+1 I think
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#16
Quote by Cianyx
One of the reasons why the internet can't correct injustices of the world. I was responding to this btw

mmm?
there's nothing contradictory about my quote. people have to tell each other why they're right, and why the other person is wrong. but it's not about coming to an agreement, it's about coming to an understanding.
Quote by Machanix
We play guitar.... we're automatically on top of the world.

Life Is A Lemon And I Want My Money Back!

A Wasted Youth
Is Better By Far
Than A Wise And Productive Old Age

Good Girls Go To Heaven, But The Bad Girls Go Everywhere!
#17
Quote by instagata0
mmm?
there's nothing contradictory about my quote. people have to tell each other why they're right, and why the other person is wrong. but it's not about coming to an agreement, it's about coming to an understanding.


A lot of people don't understand even after having things explained and discussed though, unfortunatly enough
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#18
Quote by instagata0
mmm?
there's nothing contradictory about my quote. people have to tell each other why they're right, and why the other person is wrong. but it's not about coming to an agreement, it's about coming to an understanding.


That implies that there is always something to understand. I don't understand anything that supposedly justifies the holocaust. Do you?
#19
Quote by ep1kz
it is like this because getting all of the internet users together and getting them to wisen up and be considerate, intelligent people with well-thought out arguments and even to just have an ounce of courtesy is downright impossible.

to put it simply, human beings are ****ing dumb. me included.

sorry, i missed this post.

surely stupidity has its place, though. we have all said stupid things. i'm sure that lots and lots of people would consider my proposition that the internet should have the power to persuade world leaders to be stupid. however stupid things are still part of a discussion.

there must be a way to organise the internet in a way which allows for genuine change when change is appropriate. i dont know what it could be, but there are some great minds out there who i'm sure could come up with a way.
Quote by Machanix
We play guitar.... we're automatically on top of the world.

Life Is A Lemon And I Want My Money Back!

A Wasted Youth
Is Better By Far
Than A Wise And Productive Old Age

Good Girls Go To Heaven, But The Bad Girls Go Everywhere!
#20
Quote by instagata0
sorry, i missed this post.

surely stupidity has its place, though. we have all said stupid things. i'm sure that lots and lots of people would consider my proposition that the internet should have the power to persuade world leaders to be stupid. however stupid things are still part of a discussion.

there must be a way to organise the internet in a way which allows for genuine change when change is appropriate. i dont know what it could be, but there are some great minds out there who i'm sure could come up with a way.


And those great minds are thinking "I'm sure there are some other great minds who would do it". And those other great minds are thinking the same. Ad infinitum.

Result? Nothing happens. Story of the human race, and it usually takes one hell of a ****ing hero to take things. People like this have existed, but they're rare.
#21
Quote by michal23
That implies that there is always something to understand. I don't understand anything that supposedly justifies the holocaust. Do you?

Hitler justified the holocaust. thats why he got support. but in a public forum, there should surely be enough opposing sense to counter the justification, and then, even if Hitler still believed that he was right, he could at least have come to an understanding about why others thought he was wrong, as could his supporters.
Quote by Machanix
We play guitar.... we're automatically on top of the world.

Life Is A Lemon And I Want My Money Back!

A Wasted Youth
Is Better By Far
Than A Wise And Productive Old Age

Good Girls Go To Heaven, But The Bad Girls Go Everywhere!
#22
Eh, as long as humans are inherently human this 'world peace' you speak of can't be achieved.

There is no way we can get everyone to agree that there is one best way to live.

And the internet only helps us to figure out how we don't want to live, not the path to how we do want to.

So tying back to the original post, the holocaust could definitely still happen. No more people would make a big deal of it now than they did back then. The difference is that everyone with access to the internet can sit smugly in front of their computer screen and post "tut tut tut, those silly Germans, I'm glad I don't live there" on some random forum.

People are selfish, you can preach for harmony all you like but it's not possible. If people can't agree on a simple subject like "Good Music" how are they going to agree on a "Good Life"?

They're not, that's how.

Internet =/= Saviour Of Mankind
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#23
Quote by instagata0
mmm?
there's nothing contradictory about my quote. people have to tell each other why they're right, and why the other person is wrong. but it's not about coming to an agreement, it's about coming to an understanding.



If that is true, do you think North Korea would ever allow the internet to happen? Actually, that is happening in real life.

Everyone has their own opinion and everyone will fight to protect that opinion. Even more so when it comes to methods of running a government.
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Last edited by Cianyx at Jul 10, 2009,
#24
Quote by michal23
That implies that there is always something to understand. I don't understand anything that supposedly justifies the holocaust. Do you?


hitler clearly suffered from a number of mental disorders (theres much debate as to exactly which and how severe they were) im not sure if you'd consider this as justifying the holocaust, 'justify' isn't really the word to use... but it certainly explains his rationale to help understand a part of the reason as to why he did what he did.

not sure if this is exactly what you're looking for or not.
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#25
Quote by Shredder XXX
So tying back to the original post, the holocaust could definitely still happen. No more people would make a big deal of it now than they did back then. The difference is that everyone with access to the internet can sit smugly in front of their computer screen and post "tut tut tut, those silly Germans, I'm glad I don't live there" on some random forum.

People are selfish, you can preach for harmony all you like but it's not possible. If people can't agree on a simple subject like "Good Music" how are they going to agree on a "Good Life"?


This, definitely. Humans are assholes. Humans **** things up. It is not until everyone realises and accepts this, that we can start to make way for change. Because I'm a firm believer that human nature is not fixed and can be changed. We just need to want to do it. And at the moment, few care enough.


EDIT:
Quote by ep1kz
hitler clearly suffered from a number of mental disorders (theres much debate as to exactly which and how severe they were) im not sure if you'd consider this as justifying the holocaust, 'justify' isn't really the word to use... but it certainly explains his rationale to help understand a part of the reason as to why he did what he did.

not sure if this is exactly what you're looking for or not.


One guy having a mental illness does not justify killing 6 million Jews. 0_o
#26
Quote by michal23
One guy having a mental illness does not justify killing 6 million Jews. 0_o


i'd reccommend going back and re-reading what i wrote.
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#27
Quote by ep1kz
i'd reccommend going back and re-reading what i wrote.


It explains his rationale, sure, but it still doesn't make me understand why it was allowed to happen. I mean, people were fed lies, propaganda left, right and centre. But I'd have thought they'd see through it. Perhaps people are a lot more gullible than I thought.
#28
Quote by michal23
It explains his rationale, sure, but it still doesn't make me understand why it was allowed to happen. I mean, people were fed lies, propaganda left, right and centre. But I'd have thought they'd see through it. Perhaps people are a lot more gullible than I thought.



It depends how you put the spin on stories. There were a lot of people, mostly the more educated ones, who left Germany when Hitler came to power. Now Hitler gained a bigger support margin. The ones who stayed couldn't see how it would turn out especially when Hitler seemed so passionate on ridding Communism. Even the Allies thought he was good.
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#29
Quote by michal23
It explains his rationale, sure, but it still doesn't make me understand why it was allowed to happen. I mean, people were fed lies, propaganda left, right and centre. But I'd have thought they'd see through it. Perhaps people are a lot more gullible than I thought.


well when we start to talk about the people you have to bring in all of the socioeconomic factors, germany had just been humiliated after WWI, theres really too many for me to start goin on about. and a large amount of the citizens either didn't know about the death camps (or at least didn't know to what extent they were being used) or didn't support hitler's fascist policies, but i guess not enough of em cared enough to band together and try and stop the government. of course they wouldn't have gotten very far, so it's understandable.
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#30
Quote by Cianyx
It depends how you put the spin on stories. There were a lot of people, mostly the more educated ones, who left Germany when Hitler came to power. Now Hitler gained a bigger support margin. The ones who stayed couldn't see how it would turn out especially when Hitler seemed so passionate on ridding Communism. Even the Allies thought he was good.


The allies were scared of him, due to constant aggression and blatant disregard of the Treaty of Versailles.

And I can understand that people supported Hitler for patriotic reasons; what I cannot understand is why they didn't mind his clearly anti-semitic stance. No matter how fantastic all his or her other policies are, I would never elect a Prime Minister who was racist.
#31
Quote by michal23
The allies were scared of him, due to constant aggression and blatant disregard of the Treaty of Versailles.

And I can understand that people supported Hitler for patriotic reasons; what I cannot understand is why they didn't mind his clearly anti-semitic stance. No matter how fantastic all his or her other policies are, I would never elect a Prime Minister who was racist.


i think the simple answer is he started getting his fascist policies known after his spot as the leader was cemented.

the slighty less simple answer is first of all you can't say the people didn't mind, because that is a downright fallacy, second of all what could the people have done about it? their only real choice was try and hide some of the people targeted by hitler, and we're aware of how those situations turned out
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#32
Quote by ep1kz
i think the simple answer is he started getting his fascist policies known after his spot as the leader was cemented.

the slighty less simple answer is first of all you can't say the people didn't mind, because that is a downright fallacy, second of all what could the people have done about it? their only real choice was try and hide some of the people targeted by hitler, and we're aware of how those situations turned out


What the people could have done is down right revolted. If everybody in Germany just all sat down and refused to moved, Hitler would have been defeated. Of course, we know that would never happen as everyone would be far too damn scared to do such a thing.

In all fairness, I'm probably looking at things from my slightly more radical point of view .
#33
While it's true that the Holocaust could never happen in today's society, that's more because of the society itself, few countries have established monarchies, and because of the developed way of thinking, people are not out to conquer the world and eradicate impure people. However I agree that in many ways thanks to the internet peple can make their voices hear in a larger way, but that still won't overrule the people in power.
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#34
Quote by goonerbynature
While it's true that the Holocaust could never happen in today's society, that's more because of the society itself, few countries have established monarchies, and because of the developed way of thinking, people are not out to conquer the world and eradicate impure people. However I agree that in many ways thanks to the internet peple can make their voices hear in a larger way, but that still won't overrule the people in power.


I think something like the holocaust is still entirely possible, with the internet having next to no significance.
#35
Quote by michal23
The allies were scared of him, due to constant aggression and blatant disregard of the Treaty of Versailles.

And I can understand that people supported Hitler for patriotic reasons; what I cannot understand is why they didn't mind his clearly anti-semitic stance. No matter how fantastic all his or her other policies are, I would never elect a Prime Minister who was racist.



Right you are, but that was after the election. The allies were supporting him before the elections. Well, he had quite wonderful policies not that I'm supporting him. I think he made it that everyone could have a government funded holiday and something or other. And he single handedly pulled Germany out of the depression. At the time, it would only make sense to support him
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Last edited by Cianyx at Jul 10, 2009,
#36
for americans, if the bill is passed we wont be able to type anything offensive about anyone, im sure politicians like that idea.

and that includes cussing. so we might not have an internet voice over here.


but if people actually cared about the world on the internet ....
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#37
Quote by michal23
I think something like the holocaust is still entirely possible, with the internet having next to no significance.



I said society, not internet. Society today is forward thinking enough(except on a smaller scale in certain areas) to not warrant a particular group persecuting a minority on such a large scale.
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#38
Talk is cheap. The whole world can disagree with a DICKtator but they will still do whatever they want-they dont care. Just look at Mugabe or the situation in North Korea. The only way those guys are gonna get removed is by force. People can say whatever they want (against them) but in the end those guys have power-they control armies/police/media and brainwash their countries with propoganda.

Also, just because people know unjust shi* happens around them, it doesnt always make them act to fix it. People are starving to death all over the world. We know about it-but are we doing anything?
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#39
Quote by goonerbynature
I said society, not internet. Society today is forward thinking enough(except on a smaller scale in certain areas) to not warrant a particular group persecuting a minority on such a large scale.


I think something similar is still very possible. It may not be on the scale of the Holocaust, but "ethnic cleansing" still happens. Iraq tryed it with the Kurds did they not? The same thing happened in Serbia (the general area any way, not sure about the specific country) and is still likely in some African countries where different tribes hat each other just because they are different tribes.

The way I see it is the internet could only have any effect in countries where it is unlikely to be actually needed.
#40
Quote by goonerbynature
I said society, not internet. Society today is forward thinking enough(except on a smaller scale in certain areas) to not warrant a particular group persecuting a minority on such a large scale.


Society today seems happy enough not to intervene with the disgusting way North Koreans are dictated by their government. Society does not seem to mind what is going in Zimbabwe.

It's one thing to say "Oh, that's not very nice now, is it?" and one thing to actually do something about it. At the moment, the world is doing a lot of talking. I see no reason why it would be different if the equivalent to the holocaust happened somewhere, 'cause honestly what it is not much worse than some of the things that are happening today.
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