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#1
Hello people. I have asked this question before, but i've learned a few things since then (at my guitar teacher). I want to expand my playing to the whole fretboard, not just a portion of about 7 notes in different octaves. I've learned how to construct the minor and the major scale, using only one note to start with. Basically, i've learnt three patterns. I start on a note, play one of these patterns, and then apply a little trick to continue the scale.
(Here's an example of me improvising)

Example:

I play something like 5-7-8. I know that if i start with that pattern, it's a minor scale. I look at the last two notes of the pattern, which is 7-8, and i see that to continue, i need to play 7-8-10. Then i look at the last two notes of that, which is 8-10, and i see that the pattern needed there is 8-10-12.
Basically, these three patterns:

o = fretted
- = not fretted

o-oo
oo-o
o-o-o


If i play o-oo, and look at the last two notes, it's logical that oo-o fits. If i look at the last two notes of that, it's logical that o-o-o fits. If i look at the last two notes of that one, it's logical that o-oo fits. And so on. (Does this trick have a name?)

As a side note, when i start on oo-o, i get a nice sounding scale, what is the name of that one?

Tab:
E 5-6-8-9-11-12-14-16-17

---

I really like that trick and have been using it a lot, but i'm not using the full vertical scope of the fretboard. I play almost only horizontally, and sometimes switch strings. I would like to play horizontally AND vertically. And use the full fretboard range. I do use quite a lot of the fretboard (more than i did before), but it's mostly across three strings. All the vertical scale patterns listed on the Internet are quite different than that trick i learnt. How should i learn to solo vertically?
Last edited by robinlint at Jul 11, 2009,
#2
The best thing you can do that will help you now and much later is to learn every note on the fret board. By doing this all you have to do is think "Okay, I'm in the key of C so I can use these notes." and so on.

This may seem hard but there is a few tricks you can use. I recommend Fretboard Warrior. It's a free program, just Google it and just playing around with notes over backing tracks and such. That'll help you find out which notes are right in which key.
#3
Quote by Ssargentslayer
The best thing you can do that will help you now and much later is to learn every note on the fret board. By doing this all you have to do is think "Okay, I'm in the key of C so I can use these notes." and so on.

This may seem hard but there is a few tricks you can use. I recommend Fretboard Warrior. It's a free program, just Google it and just playing around with notes over backing tracks and such. That'll help you find out which notes are right in which key.

So basically, when i would learn every note on the fretboard i wouldn't NEED scales? Hmm..
Oh, and i asked a few other questions in that post. Such as "Does this trick have a name?". Please do not ignore those questions and only answer one.
#4
Quote by robinlint
So basically, when i would learn every note on the fretboard i wouldn't NEED scales? Hmm..
Oh, and i asked a few other questions in that post. Such as "Does this trick have a name?". Please do not ignore those questions and only answer one.

I think your just going up major and minor scales.

Major- W W H W W W H
Minor- W H W W H W W

W=Whole step
H=Half step

When you play 5-7-8 Those are the first intervals of the minor scale. (A whole step is 2 frets apart and a half step is one)

Take a look at this http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/major-caged/index.php
It may help a bit but I still recommend learning every note on the fretboard. That way you can use you knowledge of scale shapes and interval lengths along with knowing the notes of the fretboard to help you solo to your maximum potential.
#5
Quote by robinlint
So basically, when i would learn every note on the fretboard i wouldn't NEED scales? Hmm..
Oh, and i asked a few other questions in that post. Such as "Does this trick have a name?". Please do not ignore those questions and only answer one.
It's not a trick you've just found out the intervals that make up the major scale i.e WWHWWWH something that musicians have known for the past 600 years at least and worked out that you can start from any point in that formula. And don't shout other people down just because they didn't answer all your questions

And yes you should ideally learn all the notes on the fretboard. But it wouldn't make scales redundant it would just help you play in key better
.
Last edited by Nietsche at Jul 11, 2009,
#6

I think your just going up major and minor scales.

Major- W W H W W W H
Minor- W H W W H W W

W=Whole step
H=Half step

When you play 5-7-8 Those are the first intervals of the minor scale. (A whole step is 2 frets apart and a half step is one)

Take a look at this http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/major-caged/index.php
It may help a bit but I still recommend learning every note on the fretboard. That way you can use you knowledge of scale shapes and interval lengths along with knowing the notes of the fretboard to help you solo to your maximum potential.

Thanks. I will check that out tomorrow. Right now it's too late in the night. Sorry, i didn't mean to shout you down, and i appreciated your previous answer, although i did not like that not all my questions got answered

It seems that the CAGED system is often mentioned on a lot of websites. What is so special and good about it?


It's not a trick you've just found out the intervals that make up the major scale i.e WWHWWWH something that musicians have known for the past 600 years at least and worked out that you can start from any point in that formula.


I do not quite get the connection between what i learnt and intervals. Intervals are the spaces between notes, if i am correct, measured in semitones (half steps) and wholetones (whole steps)? What is the connection between that and the trick i learnt? I don't get it.
I do want to understand it though, because that would allow me to do that with any scale, right? And also apply it vertically? That would be awesome.


And yes you should ideally learn all the notes on the fretboard. But it wouldn't make scales redundant it would just help you play in key better

I see. Thanks.

And don't shout other people down just because they didn't answer all your questions

I didn't mean it like that, and i appreciated his answer (although it didn't explain anything about the trick), but i just wanted answers to the other questions i'd asked. You guys gave a more detailed answer.
Last edited by robinlint at Jul 11, 2009,
#8
I need to post in this thread to thank you.

Patterns have never helped me until just now with your little o's and -'s.

Everything sort of just.. clicked right now..... =D transitioning between strings (something I've been working on for 2 months now....) is already easier and it's only been 5 minutes since I read the topic.

EDIT:
Now, using your horizontal method. I use my vertical method:

Subtract 5 from the fret I am on, except G to B in which I subtract 4. (Going from E to e)

Add 7 except going from B to G (add 8?) (Going from e to E)

Start your horizontal pattern on that new string starting from where you are.

Basic math skills + this pattern = epic win for me

Now to do this o-oo thing for all the scales.
/end edit

Thank you.




Please add me if as a friend I helped! (I like to think I'm a friendly person)
Last edited by Invokke_Havokk at Jul 11, 2009,
#9
Quote by Invokke_Havokk
I need to post in this thread to thank you.

Patterns have never helped me until just now with your little o's and -'s.

Everything sort of just.. clicked right now..... =D transitioning between strings (something I've been working on for 2 months now....) is already easier and it's only been 5 minutes since I read the topic.



EDIT:
Now, using your horizontal method. I use my vertical method:

Subtract 5 from the fret I am on, except G to B in which I subtract 4. (Going from E to e)

Add 7 except going from B to G (add 8?) (Going from e to E)

Start your horizontal pattern on that new string starting from where you are.

When should i subtract and when should i add? You mean when ascending i have to subtract and when descending i have to add?

Basic math skills + this pattern = epic win for me

Now to do this o-oo thing for all the scales.
/end edit

Thank you.

How would you do it for all the scales?
And, no problem . I didn't invent it though. My guitar teacher taught it to me.

But right now it's vacation, and that means no guitar lessons. But all the information on the Internet about scales doesn't link together with that trick that i learnt.
Last edited by robinlint at Jul 12, 2009,
#11
Quote by steven seagull

Wow, thanks. I do not understand it completely yet but what i understand of it is already really helpful. So basically at every half step you can go up and down a string, or go two whole steps higher or lower on the same string? Awesome

EDIT: Hmm, it seems i understood it wrong because i tried it out and every time i ended on a different note than the root note and didn't stay within the scale. Can somebody please explain that article?

And how do i apply this to the minor scale? Lower the 3rd of each square? Just start with a minor shape?
Last edited by robinlint at Jul 12, 2009,
#12
Quote by Ssargentslayer
The best thing you can do that will help you now and much later is to learn every note on the fret board. By doing this all you have to do is think "Okay, I'm in the key of C so I can use these notes." and so on.

I disagree with this. While it can be very useful, I think it's far more important to internalize the sound of each interval and by extension each chord and scale. It's more important to be able to say "I can hear that the notes I'm playing make up a major scale" than "I'm playing such and such notes, therefore I must be playing a major scale". The latter is just robotics. Don't get me wrong though, it's still a very good idea to memorise the notes on the fretboard.

TS, you should try playing given scales up and down one string, and see if you can play them by ear, rather than by working out what note is what. The one string approach gives you a linear, uncomplicated view of the scale, and you should find that by doing this you'll come to understand scales much more clearly and your playing will improve. It will certainly help with writing all over the fretboard.

As for that scale you asked about, I'm not sure what it's called. It is an octatonic scale made up of the degrees 1 b2 b3 3 b5 5 6 7. The 7 - 1 - b2 gives it a touch of chromaticism. It resembles the 6th "mode" of the harmonic minor scale, with an added b2. It probably has its own name but I don't know it, and there's really no need to.
Last edited by Beserker at Jul 12, 2009,
#13
Quote by Beserker
I disagree with this. While it can be very useful, I think it's far more important to internalize the sound of each interval and by extension each chord and scale. It's more important to be able to say "I can hear that the notes I'm playing make up a major scale" than "I'm playing such and such notes, therefore I must be playing a major scale". The latter is just robotics. Don't get me wrong though, it's still a very good idea to memorise the notes on the fretboard.

Thanks. This is helpful advice, and i agree it's more important to know how the notes SOUND than the names of them.

TS, you should try playing given scales up and down one string, and see if you can play them by ear, rather than by working out what note is what. The one string approach gives you a linear, uncomplicated view of the scale, and you should find that by doing this you'll come to understand scales much more clearly and your playing will improve. It will certainly help with writing all over the fretboard.

I've been doing that for quite a long time now, playing scales on one string, and sometimes two or three strings. I want to break out of that now, and also play vertically. The link steven seagull gave me is very helpful for that, but i don't understand a few things about that article, which i asked in the post above your post. Would you mind reading those too, and answering them?

Or do you mean just locating the notes by ear and not using any kind of patterns?

As for that scale you asked about, I'm not sure what it's called. It is an octatonic scale made up of the degrees 1 b2 b3 3 b5 5 6 7. The 7 - 1 - b2 gives it a touch of chromaticism. It resembles the 6th "mode" of the harmonic minor scale, with an added b2. It probably has its own name but I don't know it, and there's really no need to.

Really? I thought it was Lydian or Phrygian or something..

Thanks for the advice
Last edited by robinlint at Jul 12, 2009,
#14
Quote by robinlint

I've been doing that for quite a long time now, playing scales on one string, and sometimes two or three strings. I want to break out of that now, and also play vertically. The link steven seagull gave me is very helpful for that, but i don't understand a few things about that article, which i asked in the post above your post. Would you mind reading those too, and answering them?


I'll leave this one to the seagull to explain, glancing at that article I'm not familiar with the concept (at least I haven't given much concious thought to it).

Or do you mean just locating the notes by ear and not using any kind of patterns?

That would be the goal, yeah, although being familiar with the patterns is also of much use. I suppose it would be hard to do this on the fretboard without at least partially "cheating" because you are already familiar with the patterns. What you can do then, is learn to sing the scales. I don't care how crap your voice is (mine certainly is), this is something every musician should be able to do. Only when you can sing a scale off the top of your head have you truly internalised it.

Everyone I think can sing the major scale (do rei me...) The next thing you should probably strive to learn is to sing the chromatic scale, up and down. If you can't do that, you haven't truly grasped the sound of a semitone, and being the smallest building block in our tuning system, it's very important that you do. Once you've got that down, the other scales should come much more easily. When learning to sing different scales, I find it helpful to think of the scale degrees they're made up of - when you know that the next note is say a tone away from the one you're currently on, it's not that hard to execute. Once you can do this, applying each scale to your instrument should be a breeze, whether or not you know the pattern and/or note names. Crucially, it allows you to "know" the sound and vibe of each scale and thus apply it musically, something which learning note names and patterns isn't a whole lot of use for. I think this is something woefully neglected by most of the people here. So use the advice well!

Really? I thought it was Lydian or Phrygian or something..

I guess it's closest to Lydian, though the overall sound is substantially different. The mode of harmonic minor of which I spoke was Lydian #2 (you guessed it, Lydian with a sharp instead of natural 2nd degree) and your scale only differs from that in that it has an additional b2.
#15
Quote by Beserker
I'll leave this one to the seagull to explain, glancing at that article I'm not familiar with the concept (at least I haven't given much concious thought to it).

Alright.

That would be the goal, yeah, although being familiar with the patterns is also of much use. I suppose it would be hard to do this on the fretboard without at least partially "cheating" because you are already familiar with the patterns. What you can do then, is learn to sing the scales. I don't care how crap your voice is (mine certainly is), this is something every musician should be able to do. Only when you can sing a scale off the top of your head have you truly internalised it.

I can sing a few songs. I have trouble at the higher pitches, though. What would the use of singing scales be, for singing?

Everyone I think can sing the major scale (do rei me...)

I have never done that.

The next thing you should probably strive to learn is to sing the chromatic scale, up and down. If you can't do that, you haven't truly grasped the sound of a semitone, and being the smallest building block in our tuning system, it's very important that you do.

I agree with you there.

Once you've got that down, the other scales should come much more easily. When learning to sing different scales, I find it helpful to think of the scale degrees they're made up of - when you know that the next note is say a tone away from the one you're currently on, it's not that hard to execute.

This is also called intervals, right? You explained it a lot better than what i read in The Crusade.

Once you can do this, applying each scale to your instrument should be a breeze, whether or not you know the pattern and/or note names

Because when you are playing a note in a scale which you know all the sounds of, and the order that the sounds are in, and you know the distance between the note you are playing and the next note in the scale, measured by semitones and tones, you can get it just by knowing the sound and the distance? That would basically allow me to keep on playing. Is this what Intervals are for?

Crucially, it allows you to "know" the sound and vibe of each scale and thus apply it musically, something which learning note names and patterns isn't a whole lot of use for. I think this is something woefully neglected by most of the people here

I agree (no offense to the members of UG)

I guess it's closest to Lydian, though the overall sound is substantially different. The mode of harmonic minor of which I spoke was Lydian #2 (you guessed it, Lydian with a sharp instead of natural 2nd degree) and your scale only differs from that in that it has an additional b2.

Okay. Thanks

So use the advice well!

I will. Thanks! This was a very helpful post.
#16
Don't ask me, I didn't write it

Everything Berserker says applies too, it's all part of the same puzzle.

Your ultimate goal is to know what sound is going to come out of the guitar when you fret a note, right? Singing scales to yourself helps you internalise their sound, like Berserker says if you don't actually KNOW what the scale is supposed to sound like you'll never be able you use it as effectively as possible. So you need to know the scale, independent of the guitar, you need to know how it sounds like, not just in sequence but you also want to be able to spot it being used, and to do that you need to be able to recognise it out of sequence by looking out for those signature intervals, the major third in the major scale, minor third in the natural minor scale etc.

To be able to do that effectively you also need to understand why the scale works and how it's created, that's where your WWHWWWH comes into play, and also knowing the individual intervals within that pattern, likewise knowing the notes the scale contains and the chords derived from it further cements that understanding and also gives you a head start on locating all the notes of that scale.

Finally, you need to be able to find that scale on your guitar, not only that but it needs to be in some sort of usable context. Your average scale diagram isn't all that useful, it's literally just a reference as to where all the notes lie. What's crucial is being able to use the notes within that shape in a practical sense, and one way to do that is to look for the repeating patterns within the shape. The good thing about that method is that ultimately it gets you away from scale shapes and boxes because it gets you thinking about what's most important which is "the next note", working that way helps you build familiarity with the neighbouring sounds, the ones nearest whatever it is you just played. Rather than looking at a static shape you're looking for the possibilities surrounding each note.

Most of all though, you need to put it all together, so you need to know what key you're in and where your chords are, you need to know what scale you can use and how it's likely to sound, you need to know where you can find the notes of that scale and whilst playing you need to know how the next note you play is going to sound.

All that takes time, but it really is a case of learning by doing. As long as you consciously make the effort to mentally associate what you physically do with the sound that comes out you'll build up your famialirity with the fretboard and you'll get better at it.
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#17
Quote by robinlint
Alright.
I can sing a few songs. I have trouble at the higher pitches, though. What would the use of singing scales be, for singing?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. I'm suggesting that you learn to sing scales not because it will improve your singing (though it probably will), but because it's a great way to internalise the sound of intervals and scales, to test if you know them, and to get better at them - which is something you can certainly apply to your instrument. This kind of aural training can also be done up to a point with your instrument, but when you sing them it removes any visual aid that the instrument may provide. It's straight from your mind, thus being a true test of your profiency. It forces you to really learn the sound rather than just relying on note names and patterns.

You don't have to worry about higher pitches. Every scale is contained within one octave, and everyone on the planet has a comfortable range of at least one octave.

This is also called intervals, right? You explained it a lot better than what i read in The Crusade.


Actually yeah, I should have said interval instead of scale degree, I'm getting my terminology mixed up. A scale degree is simply the name of a note in the scale in relation to the root. So the first note is 1, the second 2 etc, regardless of the intervals. An interval describes the relationship between the pitches of two notes.
#18
Quote by steven seagull
Don't ask me, I didn't write it

Everything Berserker says applies too, it's all part of the same puzzle.

Your ultimate goal is to know what sound is going to come out of the guitar when you fret a note, right? Singing scales to yourself helps you internalise their sound, like Berserker says if you don't actually KNOW what the scale is supposed to sound like you'll never be able you use it as effectively as possible. So you need to know the scale, independent of the guitar, you need to know how it sounds like, not just in sequence but you also want to be able to spot it being used, and to do that you need to be able to recognise it out of sequence by looking out for those signature intervals, the major third in the major scale, minor third in the natural minor scale etc.

Well, i know what the major scale sounds like, and i know what the natural minor scale sounds like. Heck, i mostly play in the natural minor scale. But when i would not sing scales, but instead play them on guitar, become familiar with those sounds, i would also have internalized it right? Do i really need to sing scales?

I very much agree with you on recognising the scales used when they're not played in sequence. Because mostly, they aren't played in sequence. But how would i use thirds to recognise those? Why not just listen to the melody and recognise the scale it is played in? For example, the natural minor scale has a distinct sound, and if a melody is played in that scale then i hear that 'natural minor scale sound', if you get what i mean.

To be able to do that effectively you also need to understand why the scale works and how it's created, that's where your WWHWWWH comes into play, and also knowing the individual intervals within that pattern, likewise knowing the notes the scale contains and the chords derived from it further cements that understanding and also gives you a head start on locating all the notes of that scale.

Why not listen to the note you are playing, and, having internalized the scale, know what the next note is supposed to sound like and the distance required to get to that note? Or is that basically using intervals?

Finally, you need to be able to find that scale on your guitar, not only that but it needs to be in some sort of usable context. Your average scale diagram isn't all that useful, it's literally just a reference as to where all the notes lie. What's crucial is being able to use the notes within that shape in a practical sense, and one way to do that is to look for the repeating patterns within the shape. The good thing about that method is that ultimately it gets you away from scale shapes and boxes because it gets you thinking about what's most important which is "the next note", working that way helps you build familiarity with the neighbouring sounds, the ones nearest whatever it is you just played. Rather than looking at a static shape you're looking for the possibilities surrounding each note.

So you mean learning the sequence of notes (not the names, but the sounds) in the scale, and the distances required to go from one note to the next one in that sequence? So that no matter what note of the scale you are on, you know how far the next note in the scale is?

Basically, i'm repeating this:

Because when you are playing a note in a scale which you know all the sounds of, and the order that the sounds are in, and you know the distance between the note you are playing and the next note in the scale, measured by semitones and tones, you can get it just by knowing the sound and the distance? That would basically allow me to keep on playing. Is this what Intervals are for?

Is that correct?


Most of all though, you need to put it all together, so you need to know what key you're in and where your chords are, you need to know what scale you can use and how it's likely to sound, you need to know where you can find the notes of that scale and whilst playing you need to know how the next note you play is going to sound.

Well, i know that the key is determined by the note a chord progression frequently returns to, which is most of the time the beginning chord of the chord sequence or the ending. And whether it is minor or major determines whether you have to play a minor or a major scale.

Thanks for the helpful advice, yet again.
This forum (and especially the people on it) is, yet again, very helpful.
Last edited by robinlint at Jul 12, 2009,
#19
If you can't sing the scale then you don't truly KNOW what it sounds like.

Also as far as plaing the "next note" that doesn't necessarily mean the next note in the scale, and in fact most of the time it won't...I just mean the next note that you play, what that note is is down to you.
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#20
Quote by steven seagull
If you can't sing the scale then you don't truly KNOW what it sounds like.

Okay.


Also as far as plaing the "next note" that doesn't necessarily mean the next note in the scale, and in fact most of the time it won't...I just mean the next note that you play, what that note is is down to you.

Huh? Wha?
#21
Quote by robinlint
But when i would not sing scales, but instead play them on guitar, become familiar with those sounds, i would also have internalized it right? Do i really need to sing scales?


You don't have to do any singing if you don't want to. But if you can't sing it, then you don't truly have the scale (or whatever) truly internalised, IMO.

As for the rest of your questions, I don't have time right now to answer them in depth, but it looks like you've basically got the right idea. I will say that this:

the key is determined by the note a chord progression frequently returns to, which is most of the time the beginning chord of the chord sequence or the ending.


Isn't necessarily true, it's more like the note that the progression 'gravitates' to, again I can't go in depth right now, I'm sure someone else will be able to explain it properly. Or just google it, there will be heaps of info on key out there.
#22
Quote by robinlint
Huh? Wha?


You're getting too hung up on "the next note in the scale" as opposed to simply "the next not you play". More often than not the next note you play won't be the next one in the scale, that's why it's important to be aware of as many options as possible for any given note. It's not really enough to know what the immediate neighbours above and below in the scale are.

Pick a solo, any solo...nothing too complicated. Look at the tab, count the notes in it then count how many times there's a straight run through part of the scale, just the notes one after another either ascending or descending. There won't be that many, and often they'll be limited to two or three notes at most.
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#23
Learn the properties of diatonic triads, for example in major it goes: I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - viio. Eventually you can learn to string the triads together in the same key and it has helped me open up my playing a lot. Playing with diatonic 3rds is really cool too, and so is alternating between playing in intervals of diatonic 3rds and 6ths. There are a lot of tricks to learn over the years, just keeping going. It will be a slow process, and it may be hard, but it just gets sweeter once you understand more of what you're doing.
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#24
Quote by Beserker
You don't have to do any singing if you don't want to. But if you can't sing it, then you don't truly have the scale (or whatever) truly internalised, IMO.

As for the rest of your questions, I don't have time right now to answer them in depth, but it looks like you've basically got the right idea. I will say that this:


Isn't necessarily true, it's more like the note that the progression 'gravitates' to, again I can't go in depth right now, I'm sure someone else will be able to explain it properly. Or just google it, there will be heaps of info on key out there.


This is my old question, but i've edited the post, so please ignore this:

I do want to truly internalize the scale. But won't singing scales affect my ability to sing songs? Will it affect it in a good way or a bad way? And, what key should i sing the scales in? C Major/Minor? Or D Major/Minor? Does the key even matter?

Oh, and if you have the time, please answer the questions you left out because you didn't have the time.


And read this:
EDIT: I appreciate your answers and help, but all the information given here is only confusing me and preventing me from improvising well. The method at the start of this thread works for me and i wanted to extend on that, not replace it. I wanted to know how to extend it to other strings. I want to know how to convert the horizontal scales into vertical ones. I need to know the distance of a whole step and half step not only on one string, but between two different strings, so that i would know how to continue on the next string. Please, just tell me how to extend that trick. And maybe how to use it with different scales (Right now i know how to do it with the minor scale, major scale, and some sort of lydian-like scale). How to convert vertical scale patterns into horizontal ones, etc. Or is this trick limited to only minor, major, and lydian-like?

(Steven Seagull's link about fretboard relativity was closest to this, only i do not understand a few things about it.)

Next to that, different people have answered differently, with different information. I don't know which to follow.

If you need a refresher:

Example:

I play something like 5-7-8. I know that if i start with that pattern, it's a minor scale. I look at the last two notes of the pattern, which is 7-8, and i see that to continue, i need to play 7-8-10. Then i look at the last two notes of that, which is 8-10, and i see that the pattern needed there is 8-10-12.
Basically, these three patterns:
Quote:
o = fretted
- = not fretted

o-oo
oo-o
o-o-o


If i play o-oo, and look at the last two notes, it's logical that oo-o fits. If i look at the last two notes of that, it's logical that o-o-o fits. If i look at the last two notes of that one, it's logical that o-oo fits. And so on. (Does this trick have a name?)

As a side note, when i start on oo-o, i get a nice sounding scale, what is the name of that one?
Quote:
Tab:
E 5-6-8-9-11-12-14-16-17


Sorry if this seems like ignoring you guys's answers, but the information is really confusing me.
Last edited by robinlint at Jul 13, 2009,
#25
I would still like an answer to the above questions (from anyone, not just Steven Seagull and Beserker). I'm having the idea the thread is being forgotten and none are aware of my newest post. Therefore, i am bumping. Hopefully this bump is not against the new bumping rules.
#26
Each string is 2 whole steps and 1 half step apart. (A Perfect 4th) except for the G to B string that is 2 whole steps apart. (A Major 3rd)

This is going from E to e.

That translates to 55545x - just as if you were tuning your guitar.

So let's say your on your A string, 7th fret. Just copy the pattern you have in your mind and start it on the 2nd fret of the D string.


Hope that helped




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#27
If you can sing the scale, you'll be able to find the next scale degree on whatever string by ear. You won't need to rely on working out the intervals, or using patterns.

While you're working on that tho, learn how to find your way around the neck using intervals - if you can easily find an octave, perfect 4th, perfect 5th etc on the neck you'll be able to play scales in any direction you like. Freepower's bitesize theory vids might help with that too (on his profile)
#28
Quote by Invokke_Havokk
Each string is 2 whole steps and 1 half step apart. (A Perfect 4th) except for the G to B string that is 2 whole steps apart. (A Major 3rd)

This is going from E to e.

That translates to 55545x - just as if you were tuning your guitar.

So let's say your on your A string, 7th fret. Just copy the pattern you have in your mind and start it on the 2nd fret of the D string.


Hope that helped

This sounds like just what i'm looking for. I haven't tried it out yet though. Thanks!


If you can sing the scale, you'll be able to find the next scale degree on whatever string by ear. You won't need to rely on working out the intervals, or using patterns.

While you're working on that tho, learn how to find your way around the neck using intervals - if you can easily find an octave, perfect 4th, perfect 5th etc on the neck you'll be able to play scales in any direction you like. Freepower's bitesize theory vids might help with that too (on his profile)

This is probably indeed the best. First do it with intervals and patterns, finding the next note to play in the scale by ear later.
#29
Quote by robinlint
This is my old question, but i've edited the post, so please ignore this:


And read this:
EDIT: I appreciate your answers and help, but all the information given here is only confusing me and preventing me from improvising well. The method at the start of this thread works for me and i wanted to extend on that, not replace it. I wanted to know how to extend it to other strings. I want to know how to convert the horizontal scales into vertical ones. I need to know the distance of a whole step and half step not only on one string, but between two different strings, so that i would know how to continue on the next string. Please, just tell me how to extend that trick. And maybe how to use it with different scales (Right now i know how to do it with the minor scale, major scale, and some sort of lydian-like scale). How to convert vertical scale patterns into horizontal ones, etc. Or is this trick limited to only minor, major, and lydian-like?.

I'll address the bit in bold - you need to distance yourself from the physical aspects of the guitar for a second. An interval is the distance in SOUND, not a physical thing - if you want to know the "distance" of a whole step then there is no distance as such, it's just 2 semitones. Play the chromatic scale anywhere on your guitar but don't concern yourself with where you're playing, just listen to it. From one note to the next is a semitone, or a half step, two notes is a whole step or a tone.

Now, that just happens to equate to one fret for a semitone and two frets for a whole tone but that isn't what matters. What's important is the difference in the sounds - so if you want to rearrange scale patterns you need to be able to identify the notes they contain in different places on the fretboard, and to do that you need to be able to recognise when two notes sound the same. There's no trick to it, you just need to train your ears more.

There's no such thing as vertical and horizontal scales really, just scales - how you play them on the guitar is up to you.
Actually called Mark!

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#30
Quote by robinlint
This is probably indeed the best. First do it with intervals and patterns, finding the next note to play in the scale by ear later.
You should always be using your ear though - if you move notes based on intervals you should still try to tell if it sounds right or not.

Knowing the notes helps as well - then you've got intervals, patterns and notes names to subsidise your ear. Your ear is still the most important bit tho, imo
#31
Quote by steven seagull
I'll address the bit in bold - you need to distance yourself from the physical aspects of the guitar for a second. An interval is the distance in SOUND, not a physical thing - if you want to know the "distance" of a whole step then there is no distance as such, it's just 2 semitones. Play the chromatic scale anywhere on your guitar but don't concern yourself with where you're playing, just listen to it. From one note to the next is a semitone, or a half step, two notes is a whole step or a tone.

So that basically means that with every scale, i need to know the distance from one note to the next or previous? Now i'm beginning to understand why that would indeed help in not playing the scale up and down, because you could start at any note and go to the previous or the next one and still stay within the scale, which also means you could switch to a whole different note in a different octave in the same scale and still move from that note to a successive note in the scale. I don't like the idea of learning scales by singing them though, i'd rather do it on an instrument. Please, continue explaining, because it is starting to get less confusing.

And have you listened to the recording i made? (Improvisation in F#m). I made a melody line and put some chords under it, and some drums. That one may sound like it's running up and down a scale but that's because it's a short melody and i didn't put a lot of variation in it. Today i have experimented with jumping all around the scale, not just playing ascending and descending. I would not start on the root note but return to it a lot in the melody, and jump around between two strings, and when i wasn't on the root note suddenly switch to the root note in a higher octave. I haven't recorded it, though. Eventually, i'd like to jump all around the fretboard, play both horizontally and vertically, and know a ton of different scales, because i love new scales.

Still, the styles I want to play in have a lot of ascending and descending patterns (Blackmore's Night, some celtic music, and power/epic metal). So i'm keeping the ascending/descending patterns in my playing for a reason. I realise i'm doing it too much, though, and that i should put more variety in.

Now, that just happens to equate to one fret for a semitone and two frets for a whole tone but that isn't what matters. What's important is the difference in the sounds - so if you want to rearrange scale patterns you need to be able to identify the notes they contain in different places on the fretboard, and to do that you need to be able to recognise when two notes sound the same. There's no trick to it, you just need to train your ears more.

What do you mean with rearranging? Changing the order of notes in the scale? Then it wouldn't be the same scale anymore. The tip about training my ears to recognise the same notes is great. But what if i want to play an octave higher? The two notes wouldn't sound the same, it would be an octave higher.

There's no such thing as vertical and horizontal scales really, just scales - how you play them on the guitar is up to you.

You have a point there. I'll put that in my signature
Last edited by robinlint at Jul 14, 2009,
#32
Singing is extremely beneficial - if you have to rely on the guitar to "hear" the scale then you'll never really know it. I honestly have no idea why you "don't like the idea", it's something that'll help you improve as a musician. It isn't an either/or choice, it's not like it's going to detract form anything or stop you doing something else. It's simply a foolproof way to show yourself that you actually KNOW that scale, you don't need perfect pitch or need to be able to name all the notes, you simply need to be able to pick a starting pitch and sing off the intervals. Remember guitar doesn't start or end with your fingers, your brain and ears need to be up to speed too.

You need to know what things sound like internally,and if you can't sing a scale back then you don't actually know the sounds in it. You may recognise them if played but if you can't pull them out of memory then you'll never be able to improvise as well as you want to. You want to get to the point when you can think of a sound in your head and create it straight away on the guitar. If you're going to use a scale well then you need to know what things are going to sound like before you play them, not after. If you're having to rely on the guitar to make those sounds for you first then you're always going to be a couple of steps behind. The whole point is to have it so you control the guitar, not the guitar controlling you - and if you're always thinking fingers-first then the guitar is ultimately the one in control.

And changing the order has no bearing on whether you're using a scale or not, both me ans zhilla have already covered that.

Remember, you don't "play scales" - you use scales to create music.
Actually called Mark!

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Last edited by steven seagull at Jul 14, 2009,
#33
Quote by steven seagull
If you can't sing the scale then you don't truly KNOW what it sounds like.



Well, that's not true. You can internalize the sound by playing it on your guitar and listening.

I could recognize a Major scale long before I could sing it.

I still can't sing a whole tone scale all the way through. No problems hearing it though.

I'm just not a good singer.

Quote by steven seagull
Singing is extremely beneficial - if you have to rely on the guitar to "hear" the scale then you'll never really know it.


It definitely is, but you're crossing the line there when you imply a person couldn't internalize the sound otherwise. You definitely CAN.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 14, 2009,
#34

And changing the order has no bearing on whether you're using a scale or not, both me ans zhilla have already covered that.

But changing the order of a scale is different from jumping around the scale, right? I meant changing the order of a scale as in taking a scale, mixing the notes, writing down that scale, then using that scale. It would no longer be the same scale. Isn't what you mean SELECTING notes from a scale, but not in an ascending/descending order?


Remember, you don't "play scales" - you use scales to create music.

Yes, i know. Who here thinks scales are only for playing up and down, then? That would be very boring music. (Yes, yes, i know i'm sometimes guilty of it.)
Last edited by robinlint at Jul 14, 2009,
#35
Quote by GuitarMunky
Well, that's not true. You can internalize the sound by playing it on your guitar and listening.

I could recognize a Major scale long before I could sing it. Some people are crappy singers.

Indeed, and that's how i want to do it. Play the scale on guitar, and then internalize the sound by listening to it on the guitar. (Not just going up and down the scale, mind you.)
#36
Quote by robinlint
But changing the order of a scale is different from jumping around the scale, right? I meant changing the order of a scale as in taking a scale, mixing the notes, writing down that scale, then using that scale. It would no longer be the same scale. Isn't what you mean SELECTING notes from a scale, but not in an ascending/descending order?

If the notes are in a different order it's still the same scale.
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#37
Quote by steven seagull
If the notes are in a different order it's still the same scale.

So the combination of notes in a scale, not the combination of notes AND the order of notes, makes the scale? What about the root note?
#38
Quote by robinlint
Indeed, and that's how i want to do it. Play the scale on guitar, and then internalize the sound by listening to it on the guitar. (Not just going up and down the scale, mind you.)



Well, singing is a good thing. It does help. But the suggestions that "you won't truly hear the scale unless you can sing it"... just isn't true.


What I would suggest is to learn some songs. Always listen, and enjoy the experience. Learning theory would enhance your ability to listen.


Listen, learn, play, enjoy
shred is gaudy music
#39
Quote by robinlint
So the combination of notes in a scale, not the combination of notes AND the order of notes, makes the scale? What about the root note?

The root note is the tonal centre, and the piece of music in it's entirety will decide that, in particular the chord progression and how it resolves. The root note of the scale is simply a reference point, it's where the music is pulling towards...so when the chord progression is heading towards a resolution then you'd likely head towards the root note, likewise if you want to establish tension you'd probably move away from it.

As we've already established most people don't just play through scale patterns in a song, so the order has to be irrelevant. If you're simply studying a scale as "a scale" then it's easier to present the notes in order to get an initial feel for it, but in practice you never really use a scale that way.
Actually called Mark!

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#40
Quote by GuitarMunky
Well, singing is a good thing. It does help. But the suggestions that "you won't truly hear the scale unless you can sing it"... just isn't true.

I'm glad to hear that.

What I would suggest is to learn some songs. Always listen, and enjoy the experience. Learning theory would enhance your ability to listen.

Listen, learn, play, enjoy

Thanks

I know how to play some songs, and i sing along with them. They're all chords though. These are a few (not all of the) songs i can play the chords of:
Sonata Arctica - Mary Lou
Sonata Arctica - Shy
Blackmore's Night - Faerie Queen
Blackmore's Night - Ghost of A rose

(Oh, and have a few suggestions? )

The lead i sometimes play atop of those songs is very basic, and not like the original author wrote it.
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