#1
So... I have a question tell me if im right...

If i play the major scale for C ( C D E F G A B C)

over C maj chord i get an ionian sound

so according to get to a D dorian sound i can play the C ionian scale over a D minor chord and get a D dorian sound if i stop on D...?

If thats right ... im starting to get it....

If its not...i gotta start over...
#2
Well, yes, although I think a Dm7 chord would give you a better feel. But yes, what you're talking about is a vamp. If you just play a Dm7 (or Dm) chord over and over, and over the chord you play those notes, you'll get a dorian sound. Keeping in mind, of course, that your new tonal center is D.
#3
YES I GET IT NOW.. ITS ALL COMING TO ME!!!

Now if only i could get harmonic minor, diminished, and dominant modes (phyrygian dominant) ill figure it out
#4
Advice: Don't worry about modes. 99% of western music is tonal, not modal. The only times you'll ever end up using modes on a regular basis in today's music world is if you either compose specifically modal music (which takes quite a bit of skill in composing some good tonal music, unless you're just vamping), or if you're playing jazz (in which case you'll apply the modes over the various chords and takes a lot of practice).

Instead, master the major and minor scales and you'll be years ahead of 90% of this forum.
#5
Quote by timeconsumer09
99% of western music is tonal, not modal.

I read this all the time...wtf does it mean?
#6
That most music is based on the major/minor scale, not church modes.
"I love music, it's not like math. In music, 2+2 can equal 5, if it's a pretty enough 5." -Samuel R. Hazo

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-Ludwig Van Beethoven, from his 9th Symphony.

-John
#7
Quote by Ntc2415
YES I GET IT NOW.. ITS ALL COMING TO ME!!!

Now if only i could get harmonic minor, diminished, and dominant modes (phyrygian dominant) ill figure it out

Basically, if a chord progression resolves to a Dm but uses the same notes a C major you would refer to it as D Dorian just because of the tonal center.
#8
Y'know...I see the point in telling people not to worry about modes, at least while they're beginners. But at the same time, it's a bit like saying "99% of music is tonal, therefore your music should also be tonal. Majority (heh not a bad pun) = good". Personally, I probably write at least as much music that utilizes modes to some extent as I do music that is mostly tonal. I find the sound interesting, and I don't see what is so difficult about writing this kind of music. I've been learning about modes since I started and it hasn't done me any harm.

Furthermore, I find this "99% of music is tonal, or non-modal" statement to be misleading. While it's true that there isn't alot of strictly modal music in popular western music, partial modality is ALL OVER rock and jazz, and other styles to a lesser extent. The Beatles, for example, very often used modal inflections in their compositions. In fact, if you look at it from the other side, 99% of western music might be broadly tonal, but actually not much is strictly tonal, you know, lullaby type material.

So stop being so harsh on modes.
#9
Quote by Beserker
Y'know...I see the point in telling people not to worry about modes, at least while they're beginners. But at the same time, it's a bit like saying "99% of music is tonal, therefore your music should also be tonal. Majority (heh not a bad pun) = good". Personally, I probably write at least as much music that utilizes modes to some extent as I do music that is mostly tonal. I find the sound interesting, and I don't see what is so difficult about writing this kind of music. I've been learning about modes since I started and it hasn't done me any harm.

Furthermore, I find this "99% of music is tonal, or non-modal" statement to be misleading. While it's true that there isn't alot of strictly modal music in popular western music, partial modality is ALL OVER rock and jazz, and other styles to a lesser extent. The Beatles, for example, very often used modal inflections in their compositions. In fact, if you look at it from the other side, 99% of western music might be broadly tonal, but actually not much is strictly tonal, you know, lullaby type material.

So stop being so harsh on modes.
Couldn't agree more. If someone doesn't understand the basics then yeah they aren't going to understand modes, but if that someone understands the basics, has just started learning about modes and has grasped the basic concepts, why tell them to stop? Modes are fun, plus understanding them helps understand the interrelationships between a whole bunch of other things.
#10
modes are your friend. treat them well and they will treat you well.
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#11
Quote by Ntc2415
So... I have a question tell me if im right...

If i play the major scale for C ( C D E F G A B C)

over C maj chord i get an ionian sound

so according to get to a D dorian sound i can play the C ionian scale over a D minor chord and get a D dorian sound if i stop on D...?

If thats right ... im starting to get it....

If its not...i gotta start over...
That's one way of using modes, except it sounds nice in theory, but it's actually almost impossible in practise. It's best when you have those really simple, spacious progressions that are like 8 bars of D minor and then 2 bars of A dominant seventh and then another 8 bars of D minor.
It's also not truly modal. True modal music died when tonal music was born.

Just so I know we're on the right page I'll give an example of what I mean.

Say if the progression is Dm-A7-Abm-G7-Cmaj7-C#m7b5 Your choices are as followed
Dm - D Dorian (C major), D Aeolian (F major), D Phrygian (Bb major)
A7 - A Mixolydian (D major) (there are more choices for dominant chords, but they involve melodic minor and harmonic minor modes)
Abm - Ab Dorian (F# major), B Aeolian (F major), Ab Phrygian (E major)
G7 - G Mixolydian (C major)
Cmaj7 - C Ionian (C major), C Lydian (G major)
C#m7b5 - C# Locrian (D major)

Is that what you were envisioning?

A much easier, nicer sounding and more free way of improvising is simply to use chord tones and add non-chord tones when you feel like it. You can get the same effects as using the method I described above if you pick the right non chord tones.

Therefore, modes are still pretty inefficient.
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[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
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        L.
#12
^^ a combination of chord tones and using modes works, so if there are so many chords that analyzing its modes get too much, play the 3rds and sevenths etc, but if the piece is pretty open, i usually opt for the corresponding modes, but both work, and using both gives a good contrast in your improvisation.
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CHECK OUT MY TUNES ON MY PROFILE

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laney VC30
tele/jaguar hybrid
Big muff
Small clone chorus
memory boy
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Dunlop Crybaby wah
TS9 overdrive clone
home made tremolo
#13
Quote by Beserker
Y'know...I see the point in telling people not to worry about modes, at least while they're beginners. But at the same time, it's a bit like saying "99% of music is tonal, therefore your music should also be tonal. Majority (heh not a bad pun) = good". Personally, I probably write at least as much music that utilizes modes to some extent as I do music that is mostly tonal. I find the sound interesting, and I don't see what is so difficult about writing this kind of music. I've been learning about modes since I started and it hasn't done me any harm.

Furthermore, I find this "99% of music is tonal, or non-modal" statement to be misleading. While it's true that there isn't alot of strictly modal music in popular western music, partial modality is ALL OVER rock and jazz, and other styles to a lesser extent. The Beatles, for example, very often used modal inflections in their compositions. In fact, if you look at it from the other side, 99% of western music might be broadly tonal, but actually not much is strictly tonal, you know, lullaby type material.

So stop being so harsh on modes.


But the thing is, most of that music that has some "modal inflections" is really just including accidentals. Like a minor song may have some section where they use a b2 exclusively. It doesn't make it phrygian, though. Or someone may solo over some major chords with a #4. That doesn't make it lydian. I'm not saying to make tonal music because everyone else does, I'm saying you need a strong foundation in, and a good understanding of tonal music before you can really start to think about writing truly modal pieces.
#14
Quote by timeconsumer09
But the thing is, most of that music that has some "modal inflections" is really just including accidentals. Like a minor song may have some section where they use a b2 exclusively. It doesn't make it phrygian, though. Or someone may solo over some major chords with a #4. That doesn't make it lydian.

Yes, there is plenty of that type of music around too. But I wasn't talking about that.
#15
Quote by timeconsumer09
But the thing is, most of that music that has some "modal inflections" is really just including accidentals. Like a minor song may have some section where they use a b2 exclusively. It doesn't make it phrygian, though. Or someone may solo over some major chords with a #4. That doesn't make it lydian. I'm not saying to make tonal music because everyone else does, I'm saying you need a strong foundation in, and a good understanding of tonal music before you can really start to think about writing truly modal pieces.


Of course, and that's where the motivation to learn modes should come from -- borrowing. Borrowing a #4 has a cool sound, and if I didn't study modes for a bit then I wouldn't be able to recognize that cool sound as pseudo- Lydian, for example. Borrowed notes from modes appear so much in rock music (You can even find that example in a Paramore song. <3 ) that I think learning about modes is a great idea even if you don't plan on making modal music.. provided, of course, that you understand the basics of major and minor scale harmony.

TS: Since I'm talking about borrowing notes from modes, I'll go ahead and explain it for you. So you know the formulas for the modes in relationship to the major scale, right? Where 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 is the major scale, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7b would be Mixolydian, for example -- those. If not, hit up the modes sticky and follow the second link in that thread to one of darren's posts. You can find the formulas there. Basically, the idea of borrowing a note from a mode is pretty simple. I'll illustrate it to you with an easy example. Let's say you're playing a song in C major. You're messing around and you strike an Esus2 and it sounds awesome. Look at the notes in an Esus2: E F# B. Well, that's odd. Why does this F# sound good in a song in C major? It's not diatonic. If we look at the C major scale we will notice that F is the fourth note: C D E F G A B. So an F# would be a #4 in the context of C major. And look at that, C Lydian has a #4, so it can be said that we are borrowing from C Lydian! Very cool. Try playing this:

e:-0-2-3-
B:-3-5-5-
G:-2-4-5-
D:-0-2-5-
A:-----3-
E:-------


The chords are Dsus2 - Esus2 - C Major. I stole this right from the Paramore song I mentioned earlier. Now, the purpose of the #4 isn't to instill a Lydian sound; that happens consequently. The real reason why this #4 works is all in the voice leading. If you already know about voice leading then you'll probably recognize that motion in the voices. If not, I'll just let you notice that each string moves in 2 frets in the same direction, which can provide a certain sound.

Anyway, most of the time you won't be thinking "Hey, I should throw in a #4 here" or "Hey, a b7 would sound great here." Instead, you'll recognize the different modal flavor notes as possibilities, and you won't need to be shy about using them as you would any other diatonic note. Modes that differ in only one note from the major scale and the minor scale are extremely safe to borrow from. Look over the formulas and recognize those modes, take note of that one unique note and remember that it's safe, like the #4 for in a major key.

One last thing about borrowing from Lydian, because #4's are just so cool: Make sure you include the 5th somewhere nearby so that it's obvious that it's a #4 and note a b5, which would sound way different. Maybe also try to to avoid a natural 4th.

...I really rambled here
i don't know why i feel so dry