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#1
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/07/19/afghanistan.soldier.hostage/index.html

To quote directly from the article:

Asked by his captors if he had any message for Americans, the soldier says, "To my fellow Americans who have loved ones over here, who know what it's like to miss them, you have the power to make our government bring them home. Please, please bring us home so we can be back where we belong and not over here."


Whether he said that willingly or not, it shouldn't have been said, and now things are ****ed.

Also, coupled with this:

"As you can see, the American soldier is in good shape and good health, and he is being treated well based on the guidelines of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan regarding war prisoners," said a statement on Islamist Web sites accompanying the video. "Any decision regarding the American soldier will be the specialty of the high order of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, may God protect him."


The enemy won this publicity stunt through and through, hands down. What a mess.

What are your thoughts on it?
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#2
Quote by Dreadnought
now things are ****ed.

Pardon my ignorance, but how are they?
-

#4
I don't know about the US, but I hate how Britain handles hostage situations...
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#5
He lives in a place called "Ketchum"?

Gotta Ketchum all!
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#6
I think that was a fair statement for him to make really. You may not agree with it but if that is actually his position (and not just something he was forced to say) then fair play to him for saying it.

I hope they don't kill him though. As anyone who has seen one of those execution videos knows it is a horrible way to die. It's usually not beheading as we know it, quick and clean and presumably fairly painless. It's done with a blunt knife, long and torturous. I'd be scared.
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Last edited by Ur all $h1t at Jul 19, 2009,
#7
Quote by Aléx
Pardon my ignorance, but how are they?


A US soldier on a video taken by Islamic extremists urging families to encourage the US to leave Afghanistan? That means that our (US) population looks even less favorably on the war, that extremists now have "evidence" saying "Look see, your own soldiers want you out!"

Both of these things are deadly (yes, deadly) to our own forces over there. Popular opinion of the country sometimes is a more powerful force than the military, for example the degredation of the Vietnam as a result of public outcry against it.
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#8
I think it was quite good him to say really. Nobody can seriously have expected him not to be scared, especially in light of what has befallen previous hostages in the Middle East, and it shows a touch of humility in what many people would otherwise have seen as nothing more than a trained killing machine. I pray he'll return alive but it doesn't look good.
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#9
Quote by RubberPuppiessu
He lives in a place called "Ketchum"?

Gotta Ketchum all!

Wrong time for that comment, I think.
#10
Well his first mistake was getting captured...
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#11
Quote by Dreadnought
A US soldier on a video taken by Islamic extremists urging families to encourage the US to leave Afghanistan? That means that our (US) population looks even less favorably on the war, that extremists now have "evidence" saying "Look see, your own soldiers want you out!"

Alright, thanks. I wasn't disagreeing, by the way, I was clueless.
-

#12
Quote by Dreadnought
A US soldier on a video taken by Islamic extremists urging families to encourage the US to leave Afghanistan? That means that our (US) population looks even less favorably on the war, that extremists now have "evidence" saying "Look see, your own soldiers want you out!"

Both of these things are deadly (yes, deadly) to our own forces over there. Popular opinion of the country sometimes is a more powerful force than the military, for example the degredation of the Vietnam as a result of public outcry against it.


Exactly. It's also against code for soldiers in captivity to make statements of that nature, if I'm not mistaken.
#13
Quote by Dreadnought
A US soldier on a video taken by Islamic extremists urging families to encourage the US to leave Afghanistan? That means that our (US) population looks even less favorably on the war, that extremists now have "evidence" saying "Look see, your own soldiers want you out!"

Who are they supposed to use the evidence on? It serves little point in recruiting insurgents, in fact it's a pretty devastating thing for recruiters. No-one wants to kill American soldiers if they think that the American soldiers don't actually want to be there.

EDIT: Seems to me to fit in a little bit with General McChrystal's new policy of trying to end the insurgency though sensible means rather than brute force.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
Last edited by Ur all $h1t at Jul 19, 2009,
#14
Quote by madbasslover
Exactly. It's also against code for soldiers in captivity to make statements of that nature, if I'm not mistaken.


You are correct
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#15
Quote by Dreadnought
A US soldier on a video taken by Islamic extremists urging families to encourage the US to leave Afghanistan? That means that our (US) population looks even less favorably on the war, that extremists now have "evidence" saying "Look see, your own soldiers want you out!"

Both of these things are deadly (yes, deadly) to our own forces over there. Popular opinion of the country sometimes is a more powerful force than the military, for example the degredation of the Vietnam as a result of public outcry against it.


+1
#16
Quote by Ur all $h1t
Who are they supposed to use the evidence on? It serves little point in recruiting insurgents, in fact it's a pretty devastating thing for recruiters. No-one wants to kill American soldiers if they think that the American soldiers don't actually want to be there.


They're not fighting the soldiers, they're fighting the US. As long as the soldiers are there the US is there, and as long as the US is there they're going to continue fighting regardless of the feelings of the soldiers.
#17
Quote by Ur all $h1t
Who are they supposed to use the evidence on? It serves little point in recruiting insurgents, in fact it's a pretty devastating thing for recruiters. No-one wants to kill American soldiers if they think that the American soldiers don't actually want to be there.


Mike Durant, pilot of a downed UH-60 in Operation Gothic Serpent, Somalia, was repeatedly interviewed by his detaining forces in an effort to get him to say something that would in any way show lack of support for his own forces or for the agenda of the government. He did his job and did not slip.

Methinks you don't really understand this if you think that this has no value for insurgents.
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#18
Quote by madbasslover
Exactly. It's also against code for soldiers in captivity to make statements of that nature, if I'm not mistaken.



you are mistaken. there is a code of conduct for prisoners of war (at least for us military) and even if that statement was voluntary he didnt break any of the rules.
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#19
No-one wants to kill American soldiers if they think that the American soldiers don't actually want to be there.


There's also the fact that it'll bugger the US military side of recruitment - who would want to join, only to be a soldier in that situation?
#20
Quote by madbasslover
They're not fighting the soldiers, they're fighting the US. As long as the soldiers are there the US is there, and as long as the US is there they're going to continue fighting regardless of the feelings of the soldiers.

They are people the same as you and me. They know that in order to fight the US they have to kill soldiers. If they feel that the soldiers are decent guys just doing their jobs, not devils out to oppress them and take over their country, then they might be more reluctant to pick up a gun and shoot at them.

Quote by Dreadnought

Methinks you don't really understand this if you think that this has no value for insurgents.

How dies it help them, other than swaying opinion back home?
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
Last edited by Ur all $h1t at Jul 19, 2009,
#21
Quote by irishguitar9
you are mistaken. there is a code of conduct for prisoners of war (at least for us military) and even if that statement was voluntary he didnt break any of the rules.


As quoted from Article V of the US Military Code of Conduct:

I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
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#22
Quote by Ur all $h1t
They are people the same as you and me. They know that in order to fight the US they have to kill soldiers. If they feel that the soldiers are decent guys just doing their jobs, not devils out to oppress them and take over their country, then they might be more reluctant to pick up a gun and shoot at them.


You are horribly, horribly, horribly mistaken.

Really, you couldn't be more wrong. You do not know what you are talking about.

The enemy is not everyday, rational people as you seem to believe.
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#23
Quote by Dreadnought
You are correct



no. he isnt.
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#24
Quote by irishguitar9
you are mistaken. there is a code of conduct for prisoners of war (at least for us military) and even if that statement was voluntary he didnt break any of the rules.

Article 5 of the Code of Conduct.

"When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause."

A) He shouldn't have left his post unless properly relieved. That's the Marine Corps 5th General Order. I think it's the Army's First General order, but he shouldn't have done it anyways. He also left his post WITHOUT a weapon!
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#25
Quote by Ur all $h1t
They are people the same as you and me. They know that in order to fight the US they have to kill soldiers. If they feel that the soldiers are decent guys just doing their jobs, not devils out to oppress them and take over their country, then they might be more reluctant to pick up a gun and shoot at them.


They hate the US and they hate that the US is over there. It doesn't matter how the soldiers feel about being there. I see where you're coming from, don't get me wrong, but the people we're fighting now aren't like that.

EDIT:
no. he isnt.

What branch of the military are you in? I know they teach the Code of Conduct to every branch.
Last edited by madbasslover at Jul 19, 2009,
#26
Quote by Dreadnought
You are horribly, horribly, horribly mistaken.

Really, you couldn't be more wrong. You do not know what you are talking about.

The enemy is not everyday, rational people as you seem to believe.

Everybody is an everyday rational person, until they aren't anymore. People are people, and there are certain universals the whole world over. One of those is a reluctance to kill people who they feel are similar to them and have similar views.

Quote by madbasslover
They hate the US and they hate that the US is over there. It doesn't matter how the soldiers feel about being there. I see where you're coming from, don't get me wrong, but the people we're fighting now aren't like that.

But the people you will be fighting tomorrow are. That's who I am thinking of.
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-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#27
Quote by irishguitar9
no. he isnt.


See the article of the code of conduct that I quoted, posted a few posts up. It is what regulated Mike Durant to not speak, and should have done so for this PFC as well

The article in its entirety:

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
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#28
Quote by Aléx
Pardon my ignorance, but how are they?


the best way to cause chaos behind a war is to demoralize the people.

not to say that hasn't already happened :\
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#29
Quote by Dreadnought
As quoted from Article V of the US Military Code of Conduct:

I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.



i know what the code of conduct is. thats not a statement disloyal to his country. he was asking for help. being in the military he knows that the government wont ever make a deal with terrorists, but as previously stated hes probably just scared, wouldnt you be? and its a 50/50 chance he was forced to say that.
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#30
Quote by Dreadnought
See the article of the code of conduct that I quoted, posted a few posts up. It is what regulated Mike Durant to not speak, and should have done so for this PFC as well

The article in its entirety:

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

He shouldn't have even relived himself from his post, without a weapon as well. If he didn't he probably wouldn't have been captured in the first place.
'Aim at perfection in everything, though in most things it is unattainable. However, they who aim at it, and persevere, will come much nearer to it than those whose despondency and laziness make them give it up as unattainable.'
#31
Quote by irishguitar9
i know what the code of conduct is. thats not a statement disloyal to his country. he was asking for help. being in the military he knows that the government wont ever make a deal with terrorists, but as previously stated hes probably just scared, wouldnt you be? and its a 50/50 chance he was forced to say that.

He is answering all of their questions, whether direct or indirect. He shouldn't be making any statements period. Code of Conduct...
'Aim at perfection in everything, though in most things it is unattainable. However, they who aim at it, and persevere, will come much nearer to it than those whose despondency and laziness make them give it up as unattainable.'
#32
Quote by irishguitar9
i know what the code of conduct is. thats not a statement disloyal to his country. he was asking for help. being in the military he knows that the government wont ever make a deal with terrorists, but as previously stated hes probably just scared, wouldnt you be? and its a 50/50 chance he was forced to say that.


It's demoralizing to his country and his fellow soldiers, so even if he wasn't forced to say it he shouldn't have. If he was forced to say it, then he really screwed up.

EDIT: I still want to know what branch of the military you're in.
#33
Quote by irishguitar9
i know what the code of conduct is. thats not a statement disloyal to his country. he was asking for help. being in the military he knows that the government wont ever make a deal with terrorists, but as previously stated hes probably just scared, wouldnt you be? and its a 50/50 chance he was forced to say that.


Hey may have been, but it still goes against that Code of Conduct, I don't understand how you fail to see that. Nothing more other than the prerequisites (name, rank, service number, DOB) is to be given, and he gave waaaaaay more.
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#34
all im saying is that we dont know every little detail about what happened. i was just trying to give the guy a defense. maybe it was his fault and maybe he did say that stuff voluntarily, and maybe he didnt. thats all.
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#35
Quote by madbasslover

EDIT: I still want to know what branch of the military you're in.

I'm guessing the Navy...
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#36
Don't start a stupid branch fight. This thread is about the article and what pertains to it
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#37
Quote by irishguitar9
all im saying is that we dont know every little detail about what happened. i was just trying to give the guy a defense. maybe it was his fault and maybe he did say that stuff voluntarily, and maybe he didnt. thats all.


He still went against the Code of Conduct, regardless of the reason behind his statement.
#38
yes i understand what the prerequisites are, but he made a plea to his family. he didnt go running his mouth about sensitive information, where troops are, what operations are going on. thats the important stuff you cant talk about
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#39
It must be terrible to be in a situation where you have to choose to lay down your life for a code of conduct. There are many things I would die for, a code of conduct just isn't one of them.
It's also terrible to be in a situation where in order to avoid being "disloyal" you have to lie about your opinions and feelings. Particularly when you're supposed to be defending freedom and stuff.
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#40
Quote by Dreadnought
Don't start a stupid branch fight. This thread is about the article and what pertains to it

I'm just saying, Whidbey Island NAS is located in Oak Harbor, WA. So i'm guessing the Navy. Nothing wrong with that, I work with some Navy guys, they're all really cool.
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