#1
Hey. Im just about to finish learning the pentatonic scale in the 5 shapes.

I don't know what to go on to learn after these scales although do like music like neo-classical such as yngwie.

Would it be wise to learn the harmonic minor scale?

If so, is this the same principle as the pentatonic. I learn the shapes for one key and they fit into all keys using those shapes?

I know im going to get shouted at for thinking them as shapes but is this true?

Many thanks, Moom.
#2
Quote by moominman2
I learn the shapes for one key and they fit into all keys using those shapes?

I know im going to get shouted at for thinking them as shapes but is this true?
Yes and for using shapes

Learn the major scale
.
#4
You are correct about the shapes working in any key, just like for the pentatonics.

BUT, I would really focus on more than just memorizing the patterns of the pentatonic scales. What I mean is that music isn't just about scales and patterns, it's about music. Memorizing the five patterns of the pentatonic scales doesn't do much for you if you can't play music with them. You should find some good backing tracks and start jamming with them. Do some improvising, do some writing, make music out of them.

There's a lot more to learning and creating music than just memorizing scale patterns, although that is a start.
#5
There's nothing wrong with recognizing shapes. That is their purpose. They are a visual aid.

The people that shout about "not seeing them as shapes", are simply wrong to do so.

Now that you just learned a few shapes though, you might consider spending some quality time making music with them, rather than just learning more shapes.

Remember the goal is to play music on your musical instrument. Not rack up XP points by completing superficial achievements.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 24, 2009,
#6
Yeah your right.

I just lack musical knowledge so im trying to make up for this by memorizing shapes to improvise with. Once I learn a few scales, I will go back to them and start using them outside these 'shapes'.
#7
Quote by moominman2
thanks.

Ok, the major scale then?

What about after that? Harmonic minor please? haha
Harmonic minor isn't really a scale. You don't write a song 'in' harmonic minor. It's more a convention to make the v-i resolution stronger. But learn it all the same

Read these. They're very helpful for begginers -> http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/search.php?s=the+crusade&w=columns
.
#9
Quote by Nietsche
Harmonic minor isn't really a scale. You don't write a song 'in' harmonic minor. It's more a convention to make the v-i resolution stronger. But learn it all the same

Read these. They're very helpful for begginers -> http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/search.php?s=the+crusade&w=columns

It absolutely is a scale. What you mean to say is that it's not a "key". You don't write a song in the key of A harmonic minor, for example. You write it in A minor and use the harmonic minor scale to add the color you want.
#10
Quote by moominman2
Yeah your right.

I just lack musical knowledge so im trying to make up for this by memorizing shapes to improvise with. Once I learn a few scales, I will go back to them and start using them outside these 'shapes'.


what do you mean by "outside the shapes"?


I mean, if you're playing the C Major scale, your playing the C major scale. It makes a shape on the guitar.

Quote by PSM
It absolutely is a scale. What you mean to say is that it's not a "key". You don't write a song in the key of A harmonic minor, for example. You write it in A minor and use the harmonic minor scale to add the color you want.

+1
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 24, 2009,
#11
Quote by GuitarMunky
what do you mean by "outside the shapes"?


I mean, if you're playing the C Major scale, your playing the C major scale. It makes a shape on the guitar.


Its just a saying is said. Is it not?

I mean stop playing within the boxes I have learned.
#12
Quote by moominman2
Its just a saying is said. Is it not?

I mean stop playing within the boxes I have learned.


What would that achieve?


You seem to have been mislead into believing that they are something to "avoid" or "get out " of.


I would recommend that you use them for their intended purpose...... as a visual aid that shows you where the notes of a particular scale (or musical concept) are on your fret-board.

Use your ears...... expand your knowledge (learn WHY those notes are where they are)

Use ALL of that to your advantage, don't disregard something useful out of fear.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 24, 2009,
#14
Quote by moominman2
Blimey mate what are you trying to prove?

It would expand my knowledge of the fretboard. Would it not?

You guys are talking about two different things. What the OP means by "outside the shape" is not literally using different notes than the notes of the key that don't fall into the pattern; he means not just playing up and down a pattern in pattern form, the way you would in a practice routine, for example. He is talking about playing more "musically", if you will, and not so much as though there is a box shape there and he needs to outline it. This could also include moving from pattern to pattern fluenty and musically, rather than just sticking to only one of the five patterns at any given time. Make sense?
Last edited by PSM at Jul 24, 2009,
#15
Quote by moominman2
Blimey mate what are you trying to prove?

It would expand my knowledge of the fretboard. Would it not?



Not using he shapes would expand your knowledge?

No that is not true.

It's the opposite..... the shapes will HELP you increase your knowledge of the fret-board.

Seeing the visual representation of something you've studied and are familiar with aurally serves as a reinforcer. That's a good thing.... you want that.


To reiterate:


I would recommend that you use scale patterns for their intended purpose...... as a visual aid that shows you where the notes of a particular scale (or musical concept) are on your fret-board.

I would recommend that along with that you....

Use your ears & study to expand your knowledge (learn WHY those notes are where they are)

Use ALL of that to your advantage, don't disregard something that's useful.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 24, 2009,
#17
Quote by moominman2
Shh please 'guitar munky' thats not what i mean.

Cheers psm



What did you mean then? I can only read the words you wrote, not the thing that you didn't write, but that you actually meant.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 24, 2009,
#18
I'm with Munky here. Shapes definitely help working out the fretboard. I remember I'd studied the major scale and it's harmony for a while in the conservatory and I could play a few major scale shapes here and there, but I was never really confident with every spot on the fretboard. When my teacher taught me the positions for the major scale (I won't go into which ones because there are several ways to learn this and I don't want to start an argument on something that doesn't really have to do with the thread) sort of like the way your learnt your five pents I started seeing the fretboard in a much more organised and clear perspective.


The point of that story is that I already knew the notes and how they were related from studying theory but it wasn't till that clicked in with the positions I learnt that I could expand my knowledge of the fretboard. It's not so much playing "out" of the patterns as more as sticking to one big pattern which goes all over your fretboard.
Last edited by Confusius at Jul 24, 2009,
#19
Quote by moominman2
thanks.

Ok, the major scale then?

What about after that? Harmonic minor please? haha
Once you understand the major scale learn how its related to the natural minor scale, then learn how to modify the natural minor scale to get harmonic and melodic minor scales.

But learn the major scale first - that on its own will keep you busy for quite some time I'd learn how its constructed in terms of notes and intervals, then learn how its related to the major pentatonic before you put too much effort into learning it all over the neck, because if you know the major pentatonic you only need to add 2 notes to get the major scale

Once you understand the major scale in terms of notes and intervals, and how its related to the major pentatonic, you'll find you can use a combination of notes, the shapes you already know and intervals to find your way around the neck. They all have their merits - box patterns themselves are not restrictive; using them in isolation without understanding the theory around them is what leaves people 'stuck in a box'. Learn the notes and intervals and them apply them to what you already know
#20
'Guitar Munky'...

All I wanted to do with these shapes is study them, then instead of using a note in one shape, I could use it in another. Therefore becoming more familiar with using the same notes but in a different place on the guitar.

Go back and read 'PSM's' comment again as that explained what I meant very well.

I'm not going to battle with you because it seems a lot of people on here have been somewhat trained to start and win discussions...arguments if you will, even if they are incorrect themselves. So I will leave this discussion with you here.

Thanks very much Zhilla. Useful info there for me
Last edited by moominman2 at Jul 24, 2009,
#21
Quote by moominman2
Hey. Im just about to finish learning the pentatonic scale in the 5 shapes.

I don't know what to go on to learn after these scales although do like music like neo-classical such as yngwie.

Would it be wise to learn the harmonic minor scale?

If so, is this the same principle as the pentatonic. I learn the shapes for one key and they fit into all keys using those shapes?

I know im going to get shouted at for thinking them as shapes but is this true?

Many thanks, Moom.


You need to learn major first my friend... then melodic stuff THEN you can learn harmonic then harmonic minor
#23
Quote by moominman2
'Guitar Munky'...

All I wanted to do with these shapes is study them, then instead of using a note in one shape, I could use it in another. Therefore becoming more familiar with using the same notes but in a different place on the guitar.



I'm sorry "mooninman2", but I don't understand what your saying. It doesn't really make sense. The notes are what they are, and the shapes are what they are. Anyway, I was just trying to help. Good luck.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 24, 2009,
#24
Quote by moominman2
'Guitar Munky'...

All I wanted to do with these shapes is study them, then instead of using a note in one shape, I could use it in another. Therefore becoming more familiar with using the same notes but in a different place on the guitar.
You mean you know the shapes but you currently stick to using one or two of them, so you're going to effectively 'ban' yourself from using them for a while and focus on a couple of the others? If you are - makes sense. I did pretty much the same thing - made myself stop using my 'comfort zone' bit of the neck and move around a bit. I think Munky thought you meant you'd tried out all the shapes and were now going to stop using them - he was just trying to save you lots of pain

If you are doing what I think you're doing, then I'm going to guess you might be doing something else I did - I always used to use the same key. Til I realised I was getting stuck in that key. I was relying on the fretboard markers to show me where the notes were, which made it difficult for me to play in other keys. So I banned myself from C Maj/A min for a week too It worked - but don't make my mistake, start using different keys each time you improvise from now if you don't already.
#25
^ I guess what I don't get is why you would "stop" one thing to do the other. Stopping something implies that you feel something is wrong with what you were doing. Continuing what you were doing, but taking it further, and/or adding a new perspective....... That's what I'm talking about. Thats development.

Maybe rather than ban, you mean shift your focus? I mean that makes sense to me. You focus on a new topic. At the time your not focusing on what you were doing before, but your not banning it either.

as far as what "Mooninman2" meant. I can only read words and interpret them based on what they normally mean. I have to say it didn't quite line up here.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 25, 2009,
#26
Quote by GuitarMunky
^ I guess what I don't get is why you would "stop" one thing to do the other. Stopping something implies that you feel something is wrong with what you were doing. Continuing what you were doing, but taking it further, and/or adding a new perspective....... That's what I'm talking about. Thats development.

Maybe rather than ban, you mean shift your focus? I mean that makes sense to me. You focus on a new topic. At the time your not focusing on what you were doing before, but your not banning it either.

as far as what "Mooninman2" meant. I can only read words and interpret them based on what they normally mean. I have to say it didn't quite line up here.
You're right. 'Ban' is probably the wrong word, although I did make myself improvise without using my 'comfort zone' positions and licks for a while (like a couple of days). I'm essentially lazy and if I'd just tried to shift my focus I'd probably have kept cheating, so I took made myself start on a different part of the neck and stay there for a while, then joined it all up together.

Key-wise I stopped improvising in C Maj/A min for about a week, but I guess that was more a case of shifting my focus - I picked a new key each day, and as there are significantly more keys than there are days of the week ...
#27
Quote by zhilla
You're right. 'Ban' is probably the wrong word, although I did make myself improvise without using my 'comfort zone' positions and licks for a while (like a couple of days). I'm essentially lazy and if I'd just tried to shift my focus I'd probably have kept cheating, so I took made myself start on a different part of the neck and stay there for a while, then joined it all up together.

Key-wise I stopped improvising in C Maj/A min for about a week, but I guess that was more a case of shifting my focus - I picked a new key each day, and as there are significantly more keys than there are days of the week ...


^ yeah, that all makes sense to me.
shred is gaudy music