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#1
When I was watching something about Electric cars the other day, and the fact that they are bollocks because the battery runs down after like... half a mile, then it takes a day to recharge it, I had an idea...

(This will probably be a complete load of toss, because I know very little about such things, but it seems to me like something that would work)


Why don't they use a flywheel or dynamo type thing in them?

It'd take a bit of power to start off, but once it gets going it would produce its own power sort of and keep the battery charged or whatever. You could drive as far as you wanted and never have to charge it theoretically.

I assume there must be a good reason why nobody has bothered to make such a car, as I imagine it would be a lot cheaper than putting in all sorts of fancy batteries and such in.
#2
Alternator.
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Icing happen when de puck come down, BANG, you know,
before de oder guys, nobody dere, you know.
My arm go comme ça, den de game stop den start up.

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#3
i think they already do this dude
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#4
yeah.... all manly and cars and stuff!


I know nothing about cars
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#5
They already do it.

Hybrid cars especially. The electric motors are used for lower speeds as it's more economical to do so, and as the "internal combustion engine is in use the wheel's spinning charge the electric motors back up.

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#6
Quote by ryand111
i think they already do this dude


I was under the impression that most/all electric cars run off a load of batteries, that last for not very long at all and that's why they are expensive and shit and no-one buys them.

Something running off a dynamo would be cheap and last forever and would be much more attractive.
#7
Like you describe it, the car would be some sort of perpetuum mobile, which has been proven to be impossible to make.. The energy produced by the alternator due to the car moving wouldn't be sufficient to keep the car moving.. There's a great amount of energy-loss because of friction and stuff, so it's impossible
#8
Couldn't you just stick a dynamo on the axle or something?


(As I said, I haven't got a clue about it, but just had an idea )
#9
The big problem with electric cars isn't just how long they last, it's the fact that you can drive them for 2 hours, and then spend 8 hours charging the f*cker up again to go for another 2 hours.
That's what makes them rubbish. Not to mention, if you ran out of charge somewhere, you'd have to get towed, rather than just have the AA or whatever come along with a few litres of fuel to get you to a petrol station.
#10
The hybrid cars uses inertia from driving on gasoline to charge the battery, but there's no way you could do that with a pure battery car, as it would essentially be a free energy machine.

They've spent decades researching that stuff, and it ain't happening anytime soon. But you can easily get electric cars like the roadster that can drive as far as a normal fuel car would go on a full tank.

If you want numbers, it's 250 miles on a charge, and a 0-60 in 4 secs. Although it's pretty expensive.
Last edited by anubiz03 at Jul 30, 2009,
#11
Quote by urbanfox
Couldn't you just stick a dynamo on the axle or something?


(As I said, I haven't got a clue about it, but just had an idea )


Yes, it's called an alternator/solenoid.
funkyducky


Icing happen when de puck come down, BANG, you know,
before de oder guys, nobody dere, you know.
My arm go comme ça, den de game stop den start up.

Quote by daytripper75
Get To Da Choppa!
#12
Quote by urbanfox
I was under the impression that most/all electric cars run off a load of batteries, that last for not very long at all and that's why they are expensive and shit and no-one buys them.

Something running off a dynamo would be cheap and last forever and would be much more attractive.

Modern batteries can store enough charge to last for several hundred miles and the cars can be as quick as petrol powered super cars. The problem is, no one actually manufactures an electric car that is any good. (presumably because the petrol companies won't allow it - see the GM EV1)
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#13
Quote by FischmungaXTR
Modern batteries can store enough charge to last for several hundred miles and the cars can be as quick as petrol powered super cars. The problem is, no one actually manufactures an electric car that is any good. (presumably because the petrol companies won't allow it - see the GM EV1)


The EV-1 was fine.
funkyducky


Icing happen when de puck come down, BANG, you know,
before de oder guys, nobody dere, you know.
My arm go comme ça, den de game stop den start up.

Quote by daytripper75
Get To Da Choppa!
#14
Quote by urbanfox
When I was watching something about Electric cars the other day, and the fact that they are bollocks because the battery runs down after like... half a mile, then it takes a day to recharge it, I had an idea...

(This will probably be a complete load of toss, because I know very little about such things, but it seems to me like something that would work)


Why don't they use a flywheel or dynamo type thing in them?

It'd take a bit of power to start off, but once it gets going it would produce its own power sort of and keep the battery charged or whatever. You could drive as far as you wanted and never have to charge it theoretically.

I assume there must be a good reason why nobody has bothered to make such a car, as I imagine it would be a lot cheaper than putting in all sorts of fancy batteries and such in.


What you are describing is a perpetual motion machine.
#15
Quote by Stormx
What you are describing is a perpetual motion machine.


Which is physically impossible to create, right?
funkyducky


Icing happen when de puck come down, BANG, you know,
before de oder guys, nobody dere, you know.
My arm go comme ça, den de game stop den start up.

Quote by daytripper75
Get To Da Choppa!
#16
Quote by DirtyMakik
Which is physically impossible to create, right?


Well think about it. If free energy existed, would the world face the problems it does? No.

edit: I come off too rude in my posts. No, free energy / perpetual motion DOESN'T exist. Many people have claimed to have invented perpetual motion machines, but under closer examination they either use something else (the ducking bird being a good example), or simply don't work.

The US patent office requires working models of perpetual motion machines before it even looks at patent applications of em. None have ever been patented.
Last edited by Stormx at Jul 30, 2009,
#18
Quote by Future
See my post


Oh yeah, I see.

have a cookie. *hands cookie*
funkyducky


Icing happen when de puck come down, BANG, you know,
before de oder guys, nobody dere, you know.
My arm go comme ça, den de game stop den start up.

Quote by daytripper75
Get To Da Choppa!
#19
Quote by will123456789
yeah.... all manly and cars and stuff!


I know nothing about cars

me too
#21
I though about this but then decided that it must have been tried right?? i think that hydrogen is the future of cars though...
#22
Quote by funny_page
I though about this but then decided that it must have been tried right?? i think that hydrogen is the future of cars though...


It hasn't been tried because anyone with basic scientific knowledge knows that no closed system can produce energy.
#24
Quote by funny_page
I though about this but then decided that it must have been tried right?? i think that hydrogen is the future of cars though...


Yeah, hydrogen was the future of Zeppelins too but
OHH, THE HUMANITY!!




I guess was trolling, I think, I'm pretty sure hydrogen isn't used in the same way in cars...
funkyducky


Icing happen when de puck come down, BANG, you know,
before de oder guys, nobody dere, you know.
My arm go comme ça, den de game stop den start up.

Quote by daytripper75
Get To Da Choppa!
#25
Quote by Stormx
It hasn't been tried because anyone with basic scientific knowledge knows that no closed system can produce energy.

This, plus hydrogen production is not particularly efficient or environmentally friendly, electrolysis uses huge amounts of electricity which is still mostly sourced from fossil fuels.... oh the irony.. There are other methods of hydrogen production but they still use fossil fuels or just can't produce the volumes of gas required to replace gasoline.

SH
Last edited by SmellyHarold at Jul 30, 2009,
#26
Quote by DirtyMakik
Yeah, hydrogen was the future of Zeppelins too but
OHH, THE HUMANITY!!




I guess was trolling, I think, I'm pretty sure hydrogen isn't used in the same way in cars...


I'd imagine it's probably a bit safer than it's use in Zeppelins... Otherwise everytime there is a car crash, you'd get quie the explosion
#27
It isn't just physically impossible, it's theoretically impossible.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Even in a system that was 100% efficient an had no internal losses (which is physically impossible), there would need to be enough energy output by the motor to power both the motion of the car, and the dynamo (which would be equal), so the energy out from the motor would need to be double itself to work, which is obviously impossible as it would have to be both 1 and 2 at the same time.
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#28
Quote by Stormx
It hasn't been tried because anyone with basic scientific knowledge knows that no closed system can produce energy.


I have an E in both Biology and Physics A level, I'll have you know...


I'm fairly sure there is a train that operates around here that runs by flywheel, so why can't it work for a car?


Edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parry_People_Movers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_139

It seems they need an engine to get them moving, but use a flywheel to maintain the movement...
Last edited by urbanfox at Jul 30, 2009,
#29
Quote by urbanfox
I'd imagine it's probably a bit safer than it's use in Zeppelins... Otherwise everytime there is a car crash, you'd get quie the explosion


It's still the same highly flammible gas y'know... Nobody has invented some new fireproof hydrogen

SH
#30
Quote by urbanfox
I have an E in both Biology and Physics A level, I'll have you know...


I'm fairly sure there is a train that operates around here that runs by flywheel, so why can't it work for a car?


You need to ask yourself why you got that E - I've just finished my Physics A-level (I got an A at AS) and I can tell you that for A2 you _need_ this kind of understanding of energy (for stuff like internal energy, potential wells, quantum, etc)
#31
From what I've heard is that they've been doing tests on it, but nothing seems official that someone has even done drawings for a prototype as of yet. I am actually quite interested in this type of idea as well so if you find anything out will you send it to me?
#32
Quote by urbanfox
I have an E in both Biology and Physics A level, I'll have you know...


I'm fairly sure there is a train that operates around here that runs by flywheel, so why can't it work for a car?


Some trains use a regenerative breaking system which uses dynamos to feed power back into the system, they still need 10000v to run...

SH
#33
Quote by Stormx
You need to ask yourself why you got that E - I've just finished my Physics A-level (I got an A at AS) and I can tell you that for A2 you _need_ this kind of understanding of energy (for stuff like internal energy, potential wells, quantum, etc)


I got an E because I had little to no interest in it at A2 because it was far too complex and mathsy for my liking

I know all the bollocks about conservation of energy and such, but still see no reason why a flywheel can't be used to produce the energy and whatever.

Quote by SmellyHarold
Some trains use a regenerative breaking system which uses dynamos to feed power back into the system, they still need 10000v to run...

SH


Most trains use rheostatic/regenerative brakes... This one just uses an engine to get it moving, then a flywheel to keep it going.

See the links I added to that post
#34
Quote by urbanfox


Edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parry_People_Movers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_139

It seems they need an engine to get them moving, but use a flywheel to maintain the movement...


Yes, precisely!

If you read the link to Flybrid I gave you, it explains it quite well.

"The systems are also very efficient with up to 70% of braking energy being returned to the wheels to drive the vehicle back up to speed. "

So while they may not be able to supply a completely zero-emissions car, the supplemental technology could be of some benefit.
#35
^the reason they run at a huge voltage is because otherwise they'd need to draw an enormous current to power them, as P=IV, so, as V goes up I (current) goes down. High currents are more dangerous (and also require thicker, more expensive wires to run efficiently) than high voltages.

edit @the train guy.
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#36
Quote by urbanfox
I got an E because I had little to no interest in it at A2 because it was far too complex and mathsy for my liking

I know all the bollocks about conservation of energy and such, but still see no reason why a flywheel can't be used to produce the energy and whatever.


So long as we're talking about the same thing, this can't happen. You're talking about a system that produces energy (rotation of the wheels / torque) that doesn't use any fuel. That's impossible.
#37
Quote by Stormx
So long as we're talking about the same thing, this can't happen. You're talking about a system that produces energy (rotation of the wheels / torque) that doesn't use any fuel. That's impossible.


It's basically like those flywheel trains or whatever, but using an electric motor to start it off, rather than a diesel/petrol engine.

It doesn't produce energy from nowhere, it converts the kinetic energy of the wheels/axle/whatever to recharge the battery.

The battery is used to start it moving.

The flywheel/dynamo thing then keeps it going and recharges the battery.

There you have an electric car that requires no recharging.

I don't see how that can't work :-/
#38
Quote by urbanfox
It's basically like those flywheel trains or whatever, but using an electric motor to start it off, rather than a diesel/petrol engine.

It doesn't produce energy from anywhere, it converts the kinetic energy of the wheels/axle/whatever to recharge the battery.

The battery is used to start it moving.

The flywheel/dynamo thing then keeps it going and recharges the battery.

There you have an electric car that requires no recharging.

I don't see how that can't work :-/


The flywheel won't turn indefinitely. It only stores as much energy as is given to it by a motor, and the motor won't convert energy with 100% efficiency. The kinetic energy of the wheels/axle/whatever is directly drawn from the kinetic energy stored by the flywheel, AGAIN at less-than-perfect efficiency.

You're saying that the flywheel should turn the axle, and then the axle should give MORE energy back to the axle. That doesn't work.
#40
Quote by urbanfox
It's basically like those flywheel trains or whatever, but using an electric motor to start it off, rather than a diesel/petrol engine.

It doesn't produce energy from nowhere, it converts the kinetic energy of the wheels/axle/whatever to recharge the battery.

The battery is used to start it moving.

The flywheel/dynamo thing then keeps it going and recharges the battery.

There you have an electric car that requires no recharging.

I don't see how that can't work :-/



It's all down to losses, you have friction, heat, sound generated which are all robbing the system of energy. There are aerodynamic forces (drag) that will rob the system of power.... Batteries are not 100% efficient, nor are dynamos....

SH
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