#1
I've always been quite down on myself about my playing ability and especially my ability to teach others, even though i'm quite advanced in some aspects of my playing ability.

Now my question is basically (to gauge my own playing, seeing as though i have no recording equipment) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cu5VRXKvt8&feature=channel <----what do you think about this?

Because i think it's very very sloppy, and this guy is a registered guitar instructor. (By sloppy i think his timing is poor, his dynamics, control and muting are sloppy as hell)

I'm just thinking if he's teaching people when he's got poor technique himself do you think teaching people, even though i have no qualifications would be a viable option for me? (bearing in mind i'm much cleaner than this guy)

Just wanted some opinions from the teachers of UG and whatnot so thanks in advance.
Last edited by Ikonoklast at Jul 31, 2009,
#2
Sorry dude, you may be the most awesomest thing ever, but without any proof you aren't.

The guy is not Satriani, but nobody is
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#4
^That's not me, and i'm not asking for agreement that i'm awesome - i don't really care what internet people think of me or my playing.

I'm using him as an example - seeing as though he's a registered tutor.

My question was do you think i could teach also seeing as though i KNOW i'm cleaner than this guy, ALTHOUGH i've got no qualifications?
#5
Quote by Ikonoklast

My question was do you think i could teach also seeing as though i KNOW i'm cleaner than this guy, ALTHOUGH i've got no qualifications?


Unfortunately teaching isn't about how clean you are, it's about how well you can teach.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
Last edited by AlanHB at Jul 31, 2009,
#8
Oh sorry i thought i was in the forum for people who wanted to become better musicians. Sorry, i'll take my serious questions to the newbie forum or the pit next time.
#9
Which mistakes are you pointing out exactly? If he's not playing it note-for-note he apologises, but also note that Satriani recorded parts of that song with a sock underneath the fretboard to eliminate excess noise.

You don't see him teaching in the video, you don't see progression of students or feedback, I don't see what this video has in relation to him teaching at all.

Just compare yourself against yourself, strive to improve and be better etc.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#10
Quote by AlanHB
Which mistakes are you pointing out exactly? If he's not playing it note-for-note he apologises, but also note that Satriani recorded parts of that song with a sock underneath the fretboard to eliminate excess noise.

You don't see him teaching in the video, you don't see progression of students or feedback, I don't see what this video has in relation to him teaching at all.

Just compare yourself against yourself, strive to improve and be better etc.

Well watch the video of him teaching it. And if you can't hear all the mistakes in it (that aren't part of a 'style' or his 'take' on the song) then i don't want your opinion.

My point is do you think a qualification is necessary when there are really poor qualified teachers out there or should i go for teaching without getting the grade first. Sorry i had to spell it out for you.
#11
Teaching IMO isn't about how well you play...its about how much you know and can teach to others...although playing clean should be something a teacher should be able to do.

It'd be like going to a personal trainer to train you to get big but the trainer only weighs 140lbs.

TS - if you think you can teach give it a shot. Offer to give some free lessons to a friend and see if he thinks you are actually helping. If you know your **** you know your ****, so I guess a qualification is not needed, but it will let the students know that you are a credited music techer.

I know when my father first got me my guitar teacher he made sure he had some sort of qualification, or else he wasn't going to waste his money on paying a teacher that may or may not know what he is talking about.
#12
I'll confess that I didn't watch the video, but I'm not really convinced that matters much.

I am a teacher - fully certified, degree in music, teaching in the public education system, blah, blah, blah.

I teach lots of different things. I play guitar well and sing reasonably well. I teach those, and have done so both in school settings and at home. Great. No prob.

I have also taught instrumental band classes. I'm *not* a good trumpet player, clarinet player, trombone player, etc., but I have a good enough working knowledge of the instruments to teach beginners. I know enough about the techniques for those instruments that I can help and guide players who can play better than me. I'm knowledgeable, but not practiced, if you know what I mean.

Think of an Olympic gymnastic coach. The 35 year old former bronze medal winner from 20 years ago. Surely, the Olympic candidate he/she is 'teaching' can probably do things better than the teacher, no? After all.... she's going to the Olympics, right? Do you think the teacher could do it better? If she could, *she* would be the one going to the Olympics.

I took voice lessons for ten years. I heard my voice instructor sing maybe for about ten seconds every lesson. It wasn't until after he passed away that I heard him *actually* sing. (a tape recorded performance)

Point is, you don't need to be better than the student. You need to be knowledgeable enough to assist the student to improve, and skilled enough as a teacher to help the student get to where they want or need to be.

Other than that.... all good points above.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#14
Quote by AlanHB
Unfortunately teaching isn't about how clean you are, it's about how well you can teach.
+1. Your own skill doesn't matter a bit if you can teach. You know the expression "those who can't do, teach?" It can be true.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#15
Quote by Ikonoklast
Well watch the video of him teaching it. And if you can't hear all the mistakes in it (that aren't part of a 'style' or his 'take' on the song) then i don't want your opinion.


What a weird statement. A person who doesn't play guitar but with excessive ear training could answer whether he plays clean and his opinion would still not be valid.

Looks like the other guys have said it here first but the quality of your guitar skills is not a measure of you skill as a teacher. Both are separate skills, both take practice. For example I'm sure that Malmsteen can play a lot cleaner than that guy, but I wouldn't want guitar lessons from Malmsteen if I had the choice.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#16
Quote by Ikonoklast
Well watch the video of him teaching it. And if you can't hear all the mistakes in it (that aren't part of a 'style' or his 'take' on the song) then i don't want your opinion.

My point is do you think a qualification is necessary when there are really poor qualified teachers out there or should i go for teaching without getting the grade first. Sorry i had to spell it out for you.


I don't think the RGT qualification is important. Actual knowledge, experience, and skill as a player is.

I'm going to disagree with the above posters regarding the importance/ relevance of a teachers ability to play. The best teachers I ever had were great players as well. I mean it's not everything, but it's not trivial either.

Like Axeman, I have taught other instruments, because I have enough knowledge and experience with music. It's doable to a point..... but ultimately if you have a serious student, you're doing them a disservice by not sending them on to someone more qualified. There are some things that can't be addressed by a person that lacks the skill to demonstrate. Getting them started though, can be appropriate.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 31, 2009,
#17
Quote by GuitarMunky
I'm going to disagree with the above posters regarding the importance/ relevance of a teachers ability to play. The best teachers I ever had were great players as well. I mean it's not everything, but it's not trivial either.

But just because TS thinks he can play better than this teacher does not mean that he is a better teacher.
#18
Quote by 12345abcd3
But just because TS thinks he can play better than this teacher does not mean that he is a better teacher.



Why did you quote me as if I said that? All I said was that playing ability is relevant.

Anyway, I totally agree with your statement.
shred is gaudy music
#19
Quote by GuitarMunky
Why did you quote me as if I said that? All I said was that playing ability is relevant.

Anyway, I totally agree with your statement.

Sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with you, just trying to differenciate playing skill and teaching skill as TS seems to think that one leads or causes the other.
#20
Quote by 12345abcd3
Sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with you, just trying to differenciate playing skill and teaching skill as TS seems to think that one leads or causes the other.



NP.

I have to say though that there is a strong correlation between the two. I mean playing skill in a teacher isn't something to be trivialized. It's very relevant.

I think the point you guys are probably trying to make is that teaching is a skill on it's own. Being a great player doesn't guarantee that you're a great teacher as well. That skill is developed through experience just like anything else.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 31, 2009,
#21
Quote by GuitarMunky
NP.

I have to say though that there is a strong correlation between the two. I mean playing skill in a teacher isn't something to be trivialized. It's very relevant.

I think the point you guys are probably trying to make is that teaching is a skill on it's own. Being a great player doesn't guarantee that you're a great teacher as well. That skill is developed through experience just like anything else.


This is true. I know some guitar players who are GREAT (one of them including my former teacher), but they are much better players than they are teachers. It's all about conveying the ideas in your head to another person. Sure, you might be able to play a septuplet string skipping lick at 175 bpm that goes very nicely over an A9 chord, but if you can't explain what a septuplet is, or the proper technique of string skipping, or the chord construction involved in an A9 chord, or how the notes in the lick relate to the chord, or any number of things, then you won't be an effective teacher. That was just an example of course, but you get the idea.
#22
Quote by timeconsumer09
This is true. I know some guitar players who are GREAT (one of them including my former teacher), but they are much better players than they are teachers. It's all about conveying the ideas in your head to another person. Sure, you might be able to play a septuplet string skipping lick at 175 bpm that goes very nicely over an A9 chord, but if you can't explain what a septuplet is, or the proper technique of string skipping, or the chord construction involved in an A9 chord, or how the notes in the lick relate to the chord, or any number of things, then you won't be an effective teacher. That was just an example of course, but you get the idea.


Am I understanding you correctly.... are you saying that great guitar players are better players than they are teachers? as in a generalization?

I mean some are, some aren't. it just depends on how much experience they have teaching. (and of-course the talent factor is relevant there as well)

I haven't found that to be true with any of the teachers I've had. All great players & great teachers.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 31, 2009,
#23
Quote by GuitarMunky
Am I understanding you correctly.... are you saying that great guitar players are better players than they are teachers? as in a generalization?

I mean some are, some aren't. it just depends on how much experience they have teaching. (and of-course the talent factor is relevant there as well)

I haven't found that to be true with any of the teachers I've had. All great players & great teachers.


Oh no, I was just stating my personal experience. I mean, I also know some great teachers who are great players as well. I was just making the point that they are, in fact, two different skill sets. I wasn't trying to make any generalizations about guitar players or teachers.
#24
Quote by timeconsumer09
Oh no, I was just stating my personal experience. I mean, I also know some great teachers who are great players as well. I was just making the point that they are, in fact, two different skill sets. I wasn't trying to make any generalizations about guitar players or teachers.


cool,

That's what I was saying as well.
shred is gaudy music
#25
Quote by Ikonoklast
I've always been quite down on myself about my playing ability and especially my ability to teach others, even though i'm quite advanced in some aspects of my playing ability.

Now my question is basically (to gauge my own playing, seeing as though i have no recording equipment) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cu5VRXKvt8&feature=channel <----what do you think about this?

Because i think it's very very sloppy, and this guy is a registered guitar instructor. (By sloppy i think his timing is poor, his dynamics, control and muting are sloppy as hell)

I'm just thinking if he's teaching people when he's got poor technique himself do you think teaching people, even though i have no qualifications would be a viable option for me? (bearing in mind i'm much cleaner than this guy)

Just wanted some opinions from the teachers of UG and whatnot so thanks in advance.



Well ive taught since school which was 12 years ago. A good analogy is its a bit like a football coach being able to teach Ronaldo how to take a freekick. He may or may not be able to score a goal, but the most important thing regardless is how he trains and explains how it is done, as well as how the trainer relates to the player. I have had teachers that i have been technically better than, but they can still tell me what i am doing wrong, regardless of whether they are up on their 32nd note sweep picking or not.

Here is what you need in reality to teach well:-

1) Knowledge


If you don't know how to explain something effectively then this will be a problem. For example a very minor thing i noticed was many teachers were saying 'come on its fret four string six third finger and first and fourth fingers to pluck with'. There is a lot of thought in regards to how you say things and when you are more advanced you dont think about how and why you just do.

In regards to the youtube post you always try to lead by example. Again though if you cant sweep 32nd notes at 220 bpm it doesnt mean you cannot explain how to, and coach someone with a metronome. Another example is ive taught instruments like banjo, to good success but i dont even own a banjo and rarely played one, but the knowledge of the fretboard and tuning and fingerstyle comes into play and it isnt a problem.

Your knowledge of the application of the hungarian gypsy scale will be less relevant to teaching young kids than your Ancient Egyptian Archology Degree. If you go through basic stuff and think how would i explain why there is A sharp and B flat without going into too much jargon to a 9 year old...this is where the work comes in.

2) Patience Understanding and Enthusiasm

Do you think you can keep your rag when 30% of pupils dont practice what you have taught, then you are in a position where you have to do something...so do you do even more stuff and create a backlog or do you laboriously revise the stuff they didnt do in the first place?

If you have a 7 year old who cant sit still for 2 seconds during lessons, then doesnt want to come one week because they want to go outside so you lose money? What if their parents push little johnny to take lessons and the kid is completely disinterested and wont do anything. Do you refuse to teach them and piss the parents off and risk not paying the bills?

A lot of kids these days tend to come in and say 'I WANT TO LEARN THIS SONG TODAY'. I never asked for one tune in 8 years of learning with 2 tutors. Then you show them the first note then they start to sulk because they want to do something else.

What about if you are teaching a brother and sister and they are thrashing away on their whammy bars and putting theire **** guitar out of time everytime they do and when you tune up they are making tons of noise deliberately?


So you have taught smoke on the water for the 400th time...are you looking energetic and connecting with the student? Is there rapport there and do you feel they are taking in what you have to say? Do you feel the need to consume alcohol before a lesson! Do you wish to never have kids?

If you sit in a lesson looking holier than thou the student will feel completely disconnected with what you do. Same if you have done 6 lessons and you brain is totally fried (which it will be as 6 hours teaching is a lot more effort than physical labour or financial markets which i have worked in as well!)

3) Experience

Most things come with experience. I was an arrogant shred head when i started but you hit a brick wall if you dont have the things listed above issues. I just go into a robotic mode when i teach and dont think about any of the above. I enjoy the job i miss the days i dont teach when i am on a day off, and i have never shouted at a student or smashed their ****ty squier out the window.

Strange phenomina that so many musicians do not teach...you do into a regular job and get 1 days training for something potentially dangerous. You may have 7 years training for a recreational activity. You are qualified, but it takes time.


Hope that helps!
Last edited by Machinz at Jul 31, 2009,
#26
I'm glad that nobody has gone the road of "those that can, do, and those that can't teach." They are two entirely different skills. I think the reason a lot of people who perform don't teach is that it is an entirely different skill set, and just because they're good at performing doesn't mean they're good at teaching.

I do think that if you're going to be teaching at an advanced level, you should be considered an 'expert' to some degree. The example above about the football coach, or my example about the olympic gymnast... you're still an expert, even if you're past your prime or whatever.

That all said, If I had a student - whether it be guitar, voice, or tuba, who I felt I was not effectively able to lead towards improvement anymore, or as well as I should be, I agree that it would be my responsibility to find them a teacher who could take them onto the next level.

Great posts, btw.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#27
Quote by axemanchris
"those that can, do, and those that can't teach."

CT



...those that cant teach, teach gym!

Yeah my girlfriends mother aka new age artist has this as a mantra. She works in Wal Mart instead.
#28
I can't imagine the instructors for world athletes are very athletic themselves.
Think of a world renowned instructor that you may have seen on the news or something;
A lot of them are old and fat etc
Now they may have had a career once but this is somewhat irrelevant to their teaching capabilities.
lol guitar
#29
Quote by Serpentarius
I can't imagine the instructors for world athletes are very athletic themselves.
Think of a world renowned instructor that you may have seen on the news or something;
A lot of them are old and fat etc
Now they may have had a career once but this is somewhat irrelevant to their teaching capabilities.


Well, yeah, but in most cases they did have a career. ....this is actually very relevant.

old fat and experienced is one thing. Just old and fat is another. I would bet that most "instructors of world athletes" are the former (and many are in good shape, not necessarily fat, or even that old)
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 1, 2009,
#30
Great thread this turned out to be.

And that particular guy, he was merely an example because i think he's a poor guitarist.
My point was if he thinks playing sloppy is fine, will he get a student to play it and then go 'yeah that sounds awesome - lets move on' when there is still mistakes in his playing? IF he can't hear his mistakes, he won't hear a students - then will try and progress the student through mistakes, ingraining those mistakes in his playing and making him a sloppy player too...
#31
I tend to agree with ikono on this one (Doh!!! didnt wanna do that.. jk)

I haven't watched the video as I'd rather not. I would like to relate a story as to my newest student. He came to hang out one morning so I could make him poop himself by watching a Richie Kotzen vid... anyway, after the soil session he asked to hear some of my tracks, and suddenly he smiled. He then said he'd rather have lessons from me instead (although he has studied through another "acquaintance" whom I thought offered a GIT equivalent course).

Playability does come into it in the end, because you are going to get students who want to learn a particular aspect of your style before moving on to greener pastures. Knowledge also plays a huge role. And so does your personal character.
Machinz gave an excellent run through of requirements and temperament needed.

So if you have that Ikono, as well as a friendly demeanor about yourself, go for it. If you can convey the message clearly, then do it. It doesn't matter if you downplay your playing... it doesn't matter if you have no qualifications (by all means it helps to have, and although I have none, I at least get spoken about and recommended by outsiders and students)... what matters is your ability to get your message across (repeated, I know).

Gordon Giltrap taught and played and recorded, so did Satch.

****To some, perfection in playing is what they strive for... in others a few loose notes adds a lot of character to sound. Perfection is a trap at times, you end up never being completely satisfied ****
Last edited by evolucian at Aug 1, 2009,
#32
Quote by Ikonoklast
Great thread this turned out to be.

And that particular guy, he was merely an example because i think he's a poor guitarist.
My point was if he thinks playing sloppy is fine, will he get a student to play it and then go 'yeah that sounds awesome - lets move on' when there is still mistakes in his playing? IF he can't hear his mistakes, he won't hear a students - then will try and progress the student through mistakes, ingraining those mistakes in his playing and making him a sloppy player too...


Maybe, in some cases maybe not.

Okay so you just pointed out that some dude on the internet that's trying to teach isn't really all that good. I mean is this the 1st time you've ever seen that kinda thing?
Just type guitar lesson into youtube, there's thousands of them. (and growing)

I mean is the point just to say "if that guy can do it, I can do it" ???

If so, what does that really say.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 1, 2009,
#33
I think the reason a lot of people who perform don't teach is that it is an entirely different skill set, and just because they're good at performing doesn't mean they're good at teaching.


This is very true. My piano teacher, while a part time professional performer, does not quite play at the technical level I do and teaches full time, but what she does have is a far better and developed ear, thanks to graduate level training. My violin teacher on the other hand is a full time performer and composer, principal and concertmaster in two orchestras, and the first violin of a piano trio, and she is absolutely phenomenal at her instrument, and while she has all the skills of my piano teacher, and quite possibly even more, I do not consider her a better teacher. My violin teachers passion is performing, my piano teachers teaching and it shows. Never underestimate the importance of communication in teaching. It is far more valuable to the student than any amount of technical skills you may or may not have.
#35
I'm going to go out on a limb a bit, since I haven't taught (yet, this is something I think about a LOT, even if it something that I do much later as a part time job when I am retired from my main one). Some thoughts I have from all my thinking about this:

- A good teacher has great experience with the process of learning and improving at a musical instrument. That's different than saying he's a musician that has learned and improved for many years. I'm talking about the process. Spotting problems, identifying the root cause, coming up with ways to solve them.
- A good teacher is a good communicator that can make something complex sound simple by breaking it into it's constituent parts and explaining those.
- A good teacher can inspire. He can "sell" delayed gratification - if you do this first, then you will be able to do this other thing which you really want to do later - e.g. slowing down to solve a technique problem, or learning an easier song to prepare for the song the student really wants to learn but is out of reach at present.
- A good teacher understands people. He learns that for one student, there's a way of pointing out a weakness that will inspire that student to improve it, but that for another student, he may have to point it out in a completely different way.
- A good teacher gets his joy from seeing his students develop, not necessarily his own kickass-edness.
- A good teacher is a good planner, and able to structure things. This is a big deal to me. How does someone take things learned their own, say, 20 years of experience and structure and organize it in the right order for someone that has been playing 2 years? Just learning that the student can't read your mind is going to be easier said than done.
- A good teacher understands everything that he knows. You can't teach something and say "that's just how it is", you've got to be able to explain why.
- A good teacher is well-rounded in the area that he teaches, and he's honest if the student asks him something that is outside of that.
- A finally, yeah, a good teacher needs to be good at the instrument he teaches.

That's what I'd look for in a teacher, and what I'm going to strive for if and when I start teaching.
Last edited by se012101 at Sep 20, 2009,